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Polish or American Education?


Alexander78
30 Oct 2012 #91
I am giving examples that I have personally seen. And the colleges and universities I speak of are the ones in the Washington DC area. My experience is with Europeans from Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Latvia, and Moldova. They were all more educated and knowledgeable then the Americans they went to school with. They tested higher and were laughing at how simple the curriculum was.

Northern Virginia Community College

George Mason University

Virginia Commonwealth University

And a few smaller schools.

Trinidad is a small irrelevant country. Poland is a larger, more populated country with important historical significance. You can't compare Trinidad with Poland. Any educated person should be able to tell you the location of Poland.

Teachers might want to come to the USA to teach because the salary is higher. But in reality teaching is not such a good career. There are many teachers that can't find work. My cousin is one of them. And in the USA in general there has been a shift recently. In the past 12 years trying to find work without an advanced degree has been difficult for most students. My sister in NYC had to go back and complete a Master's program. Now she works two part time jobs as a contractor without benefits. She also must pay her SS alone. And that eats up quite a bit of money. 20 years ago many Europeans from the East came and it was fairly easy to make money without skills or perfect English. And costs for everything were lower. Most of them opened businesses shortly after getting settled. While I was going to college at age 18 I worked for Domino's Pizza as a delivery driver. I also worked a few days as a driver for a Chinese restaurant. I pulled in $1500 cash per week. At that time you could buy a decent town house for $90,000. Now the same job would pay you about $600 per week and the same townhouse costs $300,000

America really is not the land of opportunity like it was in the 90's. The Midwestern areas are far worse. There are also very few business opportunities available. Everything is built up and the market for almost every type of enterprise is saturated. And Ameritards still think they are the best. Still arrogant and ignorant of the world their country controls. Stuffing their fat faces with hamburgers and pizza. Driving around in gas guzzler agricultural vehicles with stickers of a boy urinating on the ground. The women go out shopping in pajamas or sweat pants with a t shirt and baseball cap. No class at all.
a.k.
30 Oct 2012 #92
Alexander78

Concerinng the link you gave above. You should know that we have a similar show in Poland, where young Poles are asked basic knowledge questions and it doesn't look any better. The show has about 75 episodes... of course they show only the people who gave wrong or ridiculous answers. The point is you can find quite a few of such people everywhere, especially now when the education standards dropped significally all around the civilized world.
Alexander78
30 Oct 2012 #93
Things can change certainly. The people that I met when I got out of high school are all now 40+ year old. They went to school during Communist times. The education was fairly good in many Soviet block countries. Since then the situation can easily change and probably has from what you are telling me. That's unfortunate.

One business I can definitely see a great need for would be higher learning lol. There seems to be a serious problem with the quality of current education in many areas. And more and more applicants are trying to enter into fewer openings. Might be worth investigating if you have the capital to invest. In general I see the outlook for Poland to be good. And only getting better. In 25 years it should be much different. You had some terrible ideology holding your country back. Now it's time to build and prosper.
a.k.
30 Oct 2012 #94
The education was fairly good in many Soviet block countries.

Ok, that's true. My parents definitely received all round education, moreover they still remember many things from school, unlike youth today - a few months after an exam they usually don't know what was it about...
Alexander78
30 Oct 2012 #95
Youth today in many regards are less quality. Sad but true. And that goes for Europe and the USA. Europe is at a cross roads. And higher education can help it survive. It's facing a tidal wave of Islamic and third world immigration and all that brings. I just hope Poland doesn't end up like France.
a.k.
30 Oct 2012 #96
Won't end up like that because it has no colonial history. Besides that, those "third worlders" in many cases are more ambitious, diligent and motivated than indigenous people
ouulala
28 Nov 2013 #97
First of all, it's in English, not Polish. Poles who don't pass the "matura" exam don't get accepted into college and don't further their education.

Obviously since it's in the US it's in English, and Polish school is in Polish. And in the US, you need to take ACT's and SAT's and if you don't get a good score, you have a VERY slim chance of getting into good colleges, if any at all. You also have to take the constitution test, and if you fail that, you don't even get to graduate high school. So you don't further your education.

Polish teachers are unfair. They will pass you if they like your eyes. Or something else.

I'm pretty sure that's not just Polish teachers, since I have encountered this actually with more American teachers.

In the US everyone has a chance to get accepted into college. When in college, you study thoroughly towards your major.

Not exactly. Plus you pay more for college in the US than in Poland and still have a good chance at ending up without a job and loads of debt to pay off.

Teachers in Poland are mean and unfair. In the US cheating is a crime, where in Poland it gets passed by.

Again, I have encountered more mean and unfair teachers in the US than in any Polish school. Yes, there are some mean and unfair Polish teachers, but that doesn't mean the US teachers are all nice and fair. I have also had a lot more American teachers do the whole 'teachers pet' thing and it was way easier to sway the teachers with your lies than any Polish teachers. Polish teachers are super strict with cheating as well as American teachers, so no, it does not get passed by and Polish schools do not teach you how to cheat. For me and a lot of others, actually, it's been easier to cheat in American classes and the consequences weren't as bad most of the time.

Stick with education in the US. It's a longer process but it's more pleasant and at the end you learn more in your profession than you ever would in Poland.

I'm still on the road to my goal but I do know both in Poland AND US, it's harder and harder to get an actual career. In the US, since the education is longer and more expensive, you risk a higher chance of being in a deeper debt than in Poland.

Yes, I have attended both American and Polish schools. So have more than half of the people I know. Maybe you just had a bad experience with your Polish life.
kondzior 12 | 1,099
28 Nov 2013 #98
And in the US, you need to take ACT's and SAT's and if you don't get a good score, you have a VERY slim chance of getting into good colleges, if any at all.

You must think a high school education means what it used to thirty years ago. The reason all Americans have high school diplomas now is that they simply started to pass everybody no matter what. The same for college - Harvard routinely graduates 80% of it's class now with "honors" and lots of people who graduate Harvard are unable to display the literacy level that was once associated with a second or third grader.

Americans aren't getting more educated, they are progressively completely losing touch with reality. Your typical American college grad spells carrot with a "K" and thinks professional wrestling is a real sport. Stanley Kowalski from A STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE was an intellectual colossus compared to the average American nowadays.

Face it, they are doomed and they will shortly die screaming and there isn't enough spin in the galaxy to change that.
scottie1113 7 | 898
29 Nov 2013 #99
Balderdash. Complete ignorance of contemporary reality. But that's what I expect from PF these days.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
11 May 2017 #100
And I agree the American education system is terrible backward and behind its European counterparts including Poland. Nonetheless everyone wants to go to American colleges. An American corporation will chose 1 Americanized pole who has studied and worked in both the us and abroad and knows multiple languages to lead a foreign division in poland over a locally educated pole anyday - even if that pole is the top student at some school in warsaw, wroclaw etc. He or she will never be a native speaker, will most likely have limited of any meaningful work experience abroad, and at best knows 2 or 3 languages but not 4 or 5.

I am plenty happy with how my life and career is going thank you for your concern and advice. My mentor is a former executive (now retired) of general electric. Our families are good friends and he's taught me so much that school never could have.
Atch 17 | 3,268
30 Sep 2017 #101
[moved from]

First off, I studied medicine well before I got into business and I've taken all the classes necessary to get into med school

You mean those classes American students have to take before doing a decent degree, due to the deficiency of the American high school syllabus. A bit of basic chemistry, physics and biology does not make you a scientist and has nothing to do with the science of forest management and conservation.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
30 Sep 2017 #102
American students have to take before doing a decent degree, due to the deficiency of the American high school syllabus

Except I went to wonderful schools my whole life including for high school ( one of the hardest schools to get into in my city, considered a 'top 60' prep school and a 'top 150' for AP scores - not bad considering the tens of thousands of high schools around the us) and was enrolled in many AP and honors classes. Like I said, assumptions lead to ignorance. The bad high schools tend to be inner city ghetto ones where the students don't care about education. You can't teach someone that doesn't want to learn.

A bit of basic chemistry, physics and biology

O Chem, IO Chem, Biophysics, Physiology, etc. are not considered 'basic'

does not make you a scientist

Never claimed I was. Nonetheless, it doesn't take a scientist with a PhD to understand what the scientific method is. It's as you say, 'basic.' That is why I questioned his credentials because a scientist with even just a bachelors in a scientific discipline let alone advanced degree (which he never acknowledged either which he has if any, which is fine it's not a big deal, I stated what the extent of my knowledge and experience) would know his analogies and interpretation of the scientific method are way off. Especially a statement like '

Seriously, science is just as much about probability and weight of evidence as it is about experimental replication.

' Any person who choses a major like bio, chem, physics, geology, whatever will spend significant time in a lab even if doing just a bachelor's. Every class whether it's bio, chem, etc is divided between lecture and lab in pretty much any renowned university around the world. When you conduct experiments in a lab you record your observations based on the steps of the scientific method. A person who claims to be a scientist hence wouldn't fumble with clumsy analogies and know that an observation that cannot be tested repeatedly in an experiment with the same results is not considered a valid confirmation. Probability and 'weight of evidence' never constitutes a valid confirmation based on the scientific method which is the universally accepted way in which scientists test their hypothesis.

has nothing to do with the science of forest management and conservation.@ Atch

Not really. Organic chemistry, biology, etc can be applied to basically all living things and scientific disciplines intersect. Even physiological processes are pretty similar across mammals. If he is a scientist and has studied forestry I'm sure he has more knowledge than I do. That's why I asked him if he studied forestry so he can further explain. He hasn't said that he has only that he works for some forestry institute which doesn't clarify what his role is nor his level of knowledge. I work for a tech company yet I have nothing to do with coding, programming, etc. nor do I know much about it as I am hired as an independent consultant.

Also there's no such science as 'forest management' nor 'conservation.' By forest management you may mean 'forestry' and conservation 'ecology' or 'environmental science.' Typically forestry is its own discipline although lately its been grouped with agriculture, ecology, and environmental science.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,781
30 Sep 2017 #103
Except I went to wonderful schools

it's a privilege isn't it
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
30 Sep 2017 #104
@rozumiemnic

I don't see it as a privilege. Anyone can get in if they do well enough on the entrance exams and have good grades. Actually the high school I went to (Saint Ignatius College Prep) is one of the most diverse private schools in Chicago. We had everyone from poor black kids to rich wasps and rich jews What united everyone is they were good students.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,781
30 Sep 2017 #105
so you don't pay for a private school?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
30 Sep 2017 #106
@rozumiemnic

In high school not really. I was on a scholarship/grant there as my parents were poor and had moved to the US rather recently so I was on a special tuition program. We were responsible only for a very small portion and things like books.

In college I received a grant for my freshman year and paid the rest by working typical student jobs - waiting tables, delivery driver, building stages for the drama/acting club and students, etc. I also took a year and a half off in my junior year to become a commodity broker and pay off what I owed and save a little for the remainder. I managed to graduate without any student debt that way. Anyone can do it its just that the youth prefer to spend their nights and weekends drinking and dicking around instead of working. It's easier to ***** and moan about tuition and student loans than managing your time wisely and working instead of socializing. I didn't have the privilege of being one of those kids who's parents paid for everything and quite frankly I'm glad I didn't.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,781
30 Sep 2017 #107
Sounds cool. The land of opportunity...:)
Debt is the main problem for students these days here, i suppose it is the same on your side of the pond.
I was one of the last lucky ones who had it all paid for by the goverment, along with a grant. Now its all loans and students are graduating with useless degrees and thousands of pounds in debt.

At least i got my useless degree when it was free ha ha
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
30 Sep 2017 #108
The land of opportunity...:)

Absolutely. I really doubt I would've had the same opportunities elsewhere. My cousin is currently looking at a school in the UK and he told me it was something like 10k or 15k pounds a year which is very affordable compared to schools here. Nonetheless, most people let alone young people have a very hard time paying 10k 15k or whatever the figure is for a uni. Still a lot easier than paying $20-$50k (depending if it's public or private) though - and that's tuition. You have to add at least another $10-$15k for books, fees, living accomodations, etc.

Debt is a big issue because uni's are treated as businesses. Also, the cut-off for government financial aid (at least when I went to school) was a household income of $80k which really isn't that much. According to a recent survey, the average household in the US has an income of around $76k - so just below that mark. Well, take away say even a mere 25% for just income taxes for a family bringing in $80k and you're at $60k. Considering even state schools cost $20k and private schools generally cost $40-$50k+ a year, it's rather difficult for most families to afford education. Now families do all sorts of crazy things like get divorced, quit their jobs and work for cash, etc just to send their kids to school and be eligible for government assistance.

Also, no degree is useless IMO
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,781
30 Sep 2017 #109
I think the tuition fee is £9000 for home students!! More, much more for international students. Imagine. I live in a small university town and the students do look...glossier,richer, than they used to. I am sure of it.!

I am so glad my children are not academic.
My 18 year old daughter is earning £200 a week and her rent paid...!!

You are right no degree is useless, it has 'entitled' me to a better hourly rate over the years i suppose...and it was certainly fun times.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
30 Sep 2017 #110
@rozumiemnic

I believe it. Even some 10 20 years ago most of the students that would go off to college after high school tended to be middle class. It was mostly white anglos with a few blacks and latinos mixed in. You could tell by the kind of car they drove who came from a wealthy family and who didn't but generally everyone was middle to upper middle class with a few poorer students who were often the 1st in their families to go to college. Now though it seems like everyone on campus has a nice new car When I went for my bachelors there was very few Asians. When I returned for a masters the situation was the opposite - especially at the more prestigious uni's. The Asians (especially Chinese, Korean, and Indian) and whites are the dominant groups now - at some places the Asians outnumber the anglos. A lot of the Asians aren't even citizens yet but simply have rich families that wanted to move out of their native land. Many of them you can tell are ridiculously wealthy and very few of them work. A lot do take internships though. It's very common now to see a student pull up in a $50k $60k car now while when I went it wasn't really like that. There were those who maybe had a newer entry model BMW or something but generally you didn't see any cars over the $50k mark like you do now. It's gotten to the point esp at many top schools where an education is only for the wealthy Asians/whites or ambitious latinos/blacks. In the cheaper state schools you still get a good mix but still generally the people who go to college now can only go if their parents are wealthy or really poor. For a middle class family it's very hard to send their kids to college - unless they're the right minority and below a certain income, with Asians no longer really counting as a minority like in the past.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,781
30 Sep 2017 #111
...talking of Chinese and Korean students, I am an academic proofreader and some of the stuff I have read has been atrocious , goodness knows how they passed TOEFL and kept up with the work, even from so called 'good' universities. Seems like UK degrees are for sale tbh.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
30 Sep 2017 #112
@rozumiemnic

Its kind of similar here. I mean I don't fault them or anything for wanting to move to the US/UK/etc and go to a local uni. What makes me wonder though is how they were able to get in. Mathematics is pretty universal but nonetheless half of the entrance exam, both for tests like the ACT/SAT and GRE/GMAT for MBA, is English - grammar, reading comprehension, vocab, etc.. A lot of the ones I've met barely speak English. I'm a native speaker and I still had to do a lot of studying on the English portion to get a high score on the grammar - especially on the vocab section as a lot of the words I've never used and haven't since. I just don't quite understand how they managed to get in when so many of them barely speak English. Its a big divide too - either they're very proficient or barely at all. What's funny too is like you'll have a conversation with them and they nod their head or say words like 'right' 'yes' 'absolutely' etc but as soon as you ask them a question they really stumble with English. I noticed a lot of the girls too put their hands over their mouth when they speak. I thinks a cultural thing though where woman don't like showing their teeth.
Sparks11 - | 335
30 Sep 2017 #113
i know the ivy league makes exceptions on certain things if they want you for whatever reason. a family member of mine cant write for anything, spells like a punk-rocker, but is decent at math and really good at football. got a scholarship and everything. i suppose a big donation to the uni would get your kid in as well.
Atch 17 | 3,268
2 Oct 2017 #114
The bad high schools tend to be inner city ghetto ones

It's not a question of bad high schools, it's a question of a deficient education system that treats its subject matter superficially and provides an extremely general education which does not prepare students adequately for degree level study. An American high school diploma is a certificate of general education with no in-depth assessment and exam in individual subjects, hence your own example of having to take additional classes after you've left high school to get your science subjects up to a level where you can apply to study medicine. In the British Isles and many European countries when you leave secondary school, if you have chosen to study science with an intention of taking a science based degree then you are ready to start that immediately. In the USA third level students basically spend the first two years of an undergraduate degree completing their general education and trying to figure out what they might be able to 'major' in for the remainder of the degree.

there's no such science as 'forest management'

If a university offers a BSc in the subject then it's a branch of science. 'The Bachelor of Science in Forest Management and Ecology prepares students to manage our forest resources from a science-based perspective'.

I still had to do a lot of studying on the English portion to get a high score on the grammar - especially on the vocab section as a lot of the words I've never used

That proves my point about the American education system. You, whatever your faults, are literate and reasonably articulate. You also attended excellent schools and yet, your level of English was such that you had to cram for an exam in grammar and vocab. That shouldn't be the case. Being intelligent, being fairly hardworking and attending the best schools on scholarships your knowledge of grammar should be excellent and you should be widely read with a vocabulary that demonstrates that.
mafketis 24 | 8,721
2 Oct 2017 #115
s, it's a question of a deficient education system that treats its subject matter superficially and provides an extremely general education which does not prepare students adequately for degree level study

You misunderstand the system. From an American perspective European countries require students to choose what to specialize in far too early (before high school!) often without being aware the consequences of their choices.

The US system is set up so that students can specialize later when they have a broader perspective. The purpose of a high school diploma is to allow students into a university (if that's their choice) and the first two years of university are supposed to be about academic exploration when they choose a major and start taking specialist courses they'll need for it. Most US universities don't allow students to declare a specialization until they've done the equivalent of two years of higher general education.

The US system is also set up so that students can change their mind (the idea is that second, and third, and fourth etc chances are good). Contrast that with Europe and the idea that you've got one shot and if you miss it then you're out.

A big problem with the US system is a number of setbacks from funding changes in the 1960s, the triumph of neoliberalism in the early 1980s and the current SJW mania have all dealt the system heavy blows so that students are much more likely to exit high school with serious deficincies in several areas exacerbating educational and social inequality.
Atch 17 | 3,268
2 Oct 2017 #116
You misunderstand the system. From an American perspective European countries require students to choose what to specialize in far too early (before high school!)

It's not that early. In most of Europe you don't have to specialise until the last two years or so of secondary school by which time you've had ample opportunity to see where your interests and abiltities lie. Somebody knows at that stage whether they have a science or arts inclination. Also the European system allows you to pursue post-grad diplomas in a number of fields unrelated to your undergraduate degree so you can still change to a different profession if you make the wrong choice first time round.
johnny reb 27 | 4,628
2 Oct 2017 #117
with no in-depth assessment and exam in individual subjects,

Not true Atch as many high schools allow students to take a college classes if they excel in a certain subject.
By the time they enter college they have already completed their first year in a subject or two.

you had to cram for an exam in grammar and vocab. That shouldn't be the case

I will repeat it again, "A teaching degree is one of the easiest degree's that there is to obtain" so many of the not so sharp college students choose such a degree just so they can graduate from a college with a diploma of some kind.

A teaching degree is not much more then a liberal arts degree if you were to check out the required curriculums.
And the classes for a liberal arts degree are basically very general like advanced reading, art, creative writing, basic arithmetic and the soft classes.
It requires no advanced chemistry, no algebra, no trigonometry, only basic physical sciences compared to a bachelors of science degree.
Add a teaching degree with no common sense and what do we have teaching our children today........know it all babysitters that are there to pick up their paycheck so do you really expect a student to be well spoken or find Poland on a map.

In the USA third level students basically spend the first two years of an undergraduate degree completing their general education and trying to figure out what they might be able to 'major' in for the remainder of the degree.

Exactly and when they are at a dead end after their first two years and are forced to declare a degree they choose an education degree because not only is it the easiest to obtain but they don't want to graduate from college with a useless liberal arts degree which is embarrassing.

Atch, would you want any of the self proclaimed teachers on this forum teaching your children ?
Besides you and Roz I know I certainly would not.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
2 Oct 2017 #118
@johnny reb

For early childhood education majors, yes you're right. The people that wish to teach K-8 generally chose early childhood education/education as a major. However, teachers who wish to teach match, history, or whatever subject they're in at say a high school level will generally declare that as a major and then later do their teacher certificate.
Chemikiem 6 | 2,248
2 Oct 2017 #119
the first two years of university are supposed to be about academic exploration when they choose a major and start taking specialist courses they'll need for it.

So in the US it is only the last year ( or two? ) of a degree in which the focus is actually on the subject the student wants to graduate in? If that's the case then a degree from the US would compare unfavourably with one from Europe, where the 3 / 4 years of study focuses totally on the subject. How can you cram the same amount of subject knowledge into a final year or two ?

Most US universities don't allow students to declare a specialization until they've done the equivalent of two years of higher general education.

I find this quite unbelievable to be honest. So what are high school students doing between the years of 16-18? Surely this is when they should be getting a higher general education. In the UK between these ages, A levels are taken in subjects relevant to a degree, and in Poland and many other European countries, the Matura is taken. Both these type of exams are to prepare students for undergraduate study, yet in the US another couple of years are needed?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,781
2 Oct 2017 #120
one from Europe, where the 3 / 4 years of study focuses totally on the subject

mine didnt. IN the first year we had to study equally three subjects, from any in the faculty, and then choose one or two in years 2 and 3. mind you that was a welsh uni which might be diffferent, I dont know.

In some ways the US system seems better. 16 is very young to choose just three subjects to study, really.


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