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Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK?


PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
25 Mar 2012 #361
Human is not a race, human is a species. There's only one human species- homo sapien.
modafinil - | 418
25 Mar 2012 #362
Species are divided down to sub-species, not races.
If you read Darwin you will see he mentions various races of cabbage for example and a plurality of races of domestic(British) dogs. Races divided the way there are now sprung from justifying slavery by claiming they are an alien race. Generally race is accepted as a mental construct, that is, has no objective scientific meaning, species does There is no such thing as a permanent race according to Darwin.

Humans can be considered a race of humanoids as an example when speaking of the human race. Race is not a synonym for pedigrees as racists like to think of it. You know how pedigrees are made, of course.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
25 Mar 2012 #363
Racism is a type of hatred based on this pseudo-science. The people who believe in it disagree with my opinion.

Well they may not understand your opinion as they may disagree with the reasoning you've used to get to your opinion, but that's a maybe.

What I really wanted to comment on is your use of the words "hatred" and "racism" together. It's more of a question really, if racism is a type of hatred based on a pseudo-science, could you define how that hatred is manifested and or expressed? How do you decide what qualifies as hatred and not only that but hatred based on racism and what doesn't qualify as one of those two things? Is there a qualitative way to measure this or are we drifting towards pseudo-science?
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
25 Mar 2012 #364
Humans have no sub species. Every human is homo sapien.
yehudi 1 | 433
25 Mar 2012 #365
How do you decide what qualifies as hatred and not only that but hatred based on racism and what doesn't qualify as one of those two things? Is there a qualitative way to measure this or are we drifting towards pseudo-science?

This is in the realm of sociology, which is not an exact science. It's not pseudo-science because it doesn't claim to be an exact science. Racist theories, on the other hand, do claim to be scientific. When the nazis measured skulls, they were trying to give a scientific justification to their paranoia. Hutus didn't use racial theories to kill Tutsis. But that didn't make them any better.
f stop 25 | 2,513
25 Mar 2012 #366
Here is a bit of stereotyping in Poland: jewish 'dolls' holding bags of money:

jewish-dolls-poland
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
25 Mar 2012 #367
I don't think race can be defined.

Yes, it can; we are all one race and as pointed out by previous posters - the human race. Classifying people by race was a way of identifying 'otherness' and therefore suspicion and even hatred.

Here is a bit of stereotyping in Poland: jewish 'dolls' holding bags of money:

Do you know if those dolls were made in Poland and are they sold there and elsewhere in Europe? Also, in what context are they held?
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #368
Here is a bit of stereotyping in Poland: jewish 'dolls' holding bags of money:

Do you really believe that all of Poland holds such stereotypes of Jews?

Do you believe that Jews also hold stereotypes and prejudices against non-Jews including Poles?
f stop 25 | 2,513
25 Mar 2012 #369
Do you really believe that all of Poland holds such stereotypes of Jews?

that's a stupid question. There is nothing that "all of Poland" does. But these dolls are fairly common there, and I don't think they would have much of a market in many other countries.

Do you believe that Jews also hold stereotypes and prejudices against non-Jews including Poles?

I'd need some examples to give an opinion on that.
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #370
that's a stupid question. There is nothing that "all of Poland" does.

You only find it stupid because you are uncomfortable giving an answer. You are the one who presented a photo describing it as

...a bit of stereotyping in Poland

. You didn't say it was a view held by just a minority in Poland. Instead you are the one who made an unfounded generalization and mentioned the country Poland itself.

Zimmy also asked you a very important question regarding the origin of the photo you showed everybody:

Do you know if those dolls were made in Poland and are they sold there and elsewhere in Europe? Also, in what context are they held?

Where did you get this photo anyway? If it is something being sold in Poland then list several places that carry them. Are they made in Poland? If so then who makes them?

By the way, why did you avoid answering my very legitimate question regarding stereotypes and prejudices that are held by Jews against others? I'll ask again, in your view are Jews capable of holding exaggerated and/or unfounded beliefs about non-Jews including Poles? Yes or no? Its not for me to provide examples to you. You either believe they are also capable of bigotry or you don't believe it.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
25 Mar 2012 #371
But these dolls are fairly common there, and I don't think they would have much of a market in many other countries.

I have never seen them before you posted picture of them in here !
f stop 25 | 2,513
25 Mar 2012 #372
you are uncomfortable giving an answer

that's a laugh! You're the one squirming all about because of that picture. For all I know, it's a good luck charm, but stereotype it surely is!

As to what and where, do a google search on Jewish dolls holding bags of money or something, it will be faster than your silly plot to "corner me"..

Also, when you bring a point, it would be wise to at least have an example in mind, otherwise you might look foolish.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #373
Here is a bit of stereotyping in Poland: jewish 'dolls' holding bags of money:

Is this necessarily negative stereotyping? These dolls are nostalgic and they may even evoke cheerful memories. As Schopehauer wrote:

Let us see then see how even an inanimate thing, which is yet to become the instrument of some event we abhor, appears to have a hideous physiognamy; for example the scaffold, the fortress to which we are taken, the surgeon's case of instruments, the traveling coach of loved ones, and so on; indeed, numbers, letters, seals can grin at us horribly and affect us like fearful monsters. On the other hand, the instruments for fulfilling our wishes immediately look pleasant and agreeable; for example, the old woman with a hump that carries a love letter, the Jew with the louis d'ors, the rope ladder for escape, and so on.

The World as Will and Representation, Volume II, Chapter XXX
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #374
your silly plot to "corner me"..

Plot to corner you? That sounds paranoid. I asked you a very unambiguous question as to whether you believe Jews are capable of similar acts of stereotyping of others or not. Examples don't need to be provided. It's something you either believe or you don't.

You obviously have no problem believing and even telling others in public forums that Poles are bigoted towards Jews. So it is perfectly reasonable to ask the opposite as to whether you believe Jews are capable of being bigoted against Poles or other non-Jews. You should be able to answer this for yourself with confidence and not qualification; unless of course there is a very uncomfortable reality you would rather not acknowledge.

It's pretty evident from your evasive answers you have quite a ways to go in maturing. You are the one who posted an image and then claimed without any proof that it is linked to Polish stereotyping of Jews. You still can't name the country where these figurines are made or sold. Instead you lazily expect others to go on a wild goose chase across the internet to find evidence that you are somehow correct. You didn't seem to have a problem taking the time to find the photo and posting it for everyone though. No reason then why shouldn't support your claims when asked. Since you can't others will simply have to make their own conclusions about you and your motives.

But let's face it, you are just enjoying spreading wild stereotypes about Poles in order see the reactions you can get out of others. But you need to realize that you are not helping Jews overcome any misunderstandings they may have about Poles. You are only behaving like a wedge between the two communities.

You really need to hard look at yourself before you call anyone else foolish.
f stop 25 | 2,513
25 Mar 2012 #375
Seriously, I cannot even get through to the end of your post because of your convoluted logic. You have to blow hot air up somebody else's ass, or, better still, practice your psycho-analyzing on yourself.
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #376
You're obscenities and name calling prove everything I just pointed out about you. You really do speak for yourself in more ways that you realize or are prepared to admit.
f stop 25 | 2,513
25 Mar 2012 #377
read it again, then, and stop wasting my time.

Is this necessarily negative stereotyping?

I don't know, but judging from the fact that some idiots would rather argue with the messenger than look for themselves, it must be negative.
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #378
read it again, then, and stop wasting my time.

There's nothing to re-read. You blatantly presented Poles as stereotyping Jews which is in itself a stereotype of Poles. You were rightfully questioned about this not just by me but others. Rather than be honest with yourself and others you instead gave evasive responses or you flatly refused to answer and then resorted to insults.

If you don't want your time wasted then you shouldn't start something you can't finish.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
25 Mar 2012 #379
This is in the realm of sociology, which is not an exact science.

Fair enough. But what about my question:

if racism is a type of hatred based on a pseudo-science, could you define how that hatred is manifested and or expressed? How do you decide what qualifies as hatred and not only that but hatred based on racism and what doesn't qualify as one of those two things?

f stop 25 | 2,513
25 Mar 2012 #380
Here, for lazy Bieganski and the like:
"TF: Poland is beautiful, but I also have to say that I saw a wood carving of a Jew holding money.
"What is this?" I asked a Pole, who told me matter-of-factly, "Oh, the Jews are good with money."
I said, "In my country, that's called racial profiling." The Pole said to me, "Why? We'd put an Arab next to an oil well."

So this is their "compliment" to the Jews."

raedwald.blogspot.com/2012/03/eastern-sore-spots-1.html
charlescrawford.biz/blog/jews-in-poland
jewishjournal.com/rob_eshman/article/the_new_life_20101020/
blog.newvoices.org/2011/10/05/contemporary-jewish-poland-celebr ation-or-denigration-back-to-the-old-country/
myjewishlearning.com/hot_topics/ht/zydki.shtml
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #381
It's obvious that you enjoy stereotyping Poles but never calculated that it would backfire on you.

Are you Jewish by any chance?
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
25 Mar 2012 #382
So if someone disagrees with your opinion you play the Jewish card?

Nice work there old chap...
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #383
Jewish card? What are you talking about?

f stop made a posting which stereotypes Poles. There is no getting around this.

I asked her more questions regarding it and you can see for yourself how negatively she reacted.

When she did finally get around to grudgingly posting some links there were for solely Jewish interest websites. If she is Jewish then you dtaylor5632 will need to explain what the problem would be in her sharing that information. There is nothing for her to be ashamed of is there? Only you can answer that one.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
25 Mar 2012 #384
f stop made a posting which stereotypes Poles. There is no getting around this.

no, she made a posting that showed Poles stereotyping about Jews. Big difference.

If she is Jewish then you dtaylor5632 will need to explain what the problem would be in her sharing that information. There is nothing for her to be ashamed of is there? Only you can answer that one.

Erm, excuse me? Is your head so far up your own back-side kissing it, that you really think I need to explain anything? Seriously?? Haha!

From reading some of your other posts, it seems that logic is something that may be missing in your abilities.

Have a nice day ;)
Bieganski 17 | 896
25 Mar 2012 #385
Anyway. It's clear then that no group, especially Poles, need to attach any weight regarding false accusations of stereotyping when lobbed by the likes of you and f stop.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
25 Mar 2012 #386
just in case anyone has something to say on the topic.

Topic: Are polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #387
Here, for lazy Bieganski and the like:

F-Stop if your links were intended to make a case for those figurines being an example of this thread's titular "ancient racism" then you posted the wrong ones. From the first one you linked to:

To be frank, I hardly remarked the little wooden dolls of shtetl Jews on the market stalls and in the shop windows when in Poland this week; they stood alongside other affectionate national caricatures - the fat angry policeman, the gypsy and the clochard. But this trip, for the first time, I briefly explored the old ghetto, and visited one of the old synagogues, where I listened briefly to a young American woman talking history to a small group. She offered the fact of these dolls, available everywhere, and often depicted holding money, as evidence that Poles were "still anti-Jewish". Restraining the impulse to respond "Tsshk - always the victim already ..." I quickly moved away.

The truth was pretty clear to anyone whose thinking was undistorted by this kind of crass victim mentality. The dolls were all traditional caricatures of constituents of Polish society, and meant that those represented were nothing to be afraid of, nothing to avoid contact with.

raedwald.blogspot.com/2012/03/eastern-sore-spots-1.html

All the links explain these figurines as traditional Polish folk art. Would you say a sculpture of a Pole farming "stereotypes" all Poles as peasants? Jewish moneylenders were a part of Poland for centuries. Those figurines were not carved out of malice and your bringing them into this thread was foolish.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
25 Mar 2012 #388
Jewish moneylenders were a part of Poland for centuries.

Duh,hence the certain negative Jewish stereotype among Poles, whether it's wide-spread now days is a completely different story. I, for one, have encountered it.
Maaarysia
25 Mar 2012 #389
The whole case with those wooden sculptures reminds me Zwarte Piet (the Santa Claus' helper) in the Netherlands. They were also accused of racism (because Zwarte Piet is traditionally dark-skinned).

Americans should stop bring their beliefs in regard to what is racist and what is not. They sermon other nations while they don't see nothing wrong for example with this:

youtube.com/watch?v=_3NJ4cvDAn0

"Forget about the Polish, it's the T-Rex who is real dumb"

...but I guess it's not

racial profiling

Those sculptures are not intended to offend anyone. They have generally friendly face and the money attribute is to bring wealth and luck. It's a popular folk art motive (not only in carving but in painting too).

I know that in English speaking countries there were popular malicious, virulent caricatures of Jews, which depicted them as nasty individuals. It is definitely not the case with those folk art bibelots, as well as black make up of actors who play Zwarte Piet is not the same thing as insulting carricatures in the American XIX/XX century minstrel shows.
f stop 25 | 2,513
26 Mar 2012 #390
F-Stop if your links were intended to make a case for those figurines being an example of this thread's titular "ancient racism" then you posted the wrong ones.

the links were in reply to somebody that accused me of manufacturing the dolls myself, then taking a picture so I can post it here. That idiotic accusation got booted, but the reply stayed.

Those sculptures are not intended to offend anyone. They have generally friendly face and the money attribute is to bring wealth and luck. It's a popular folk art motive (not only in carving but in painting too).

That, I can actually believe! Thank you!

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