Nursing staff from Eastern Europe about to 'flood' into UK ?

I believe restriction that were previously in place for foreign (EU) nursing staff to work in the UK are about to be removed? From this autumn I think?

Previously nurses from Poland (and other EU countries) had to partly retrain. I think for three months, and in addition prove a written, and verbal ability in English. They also had to have checkable, relevant work experience, for a few years prior to working in the UK.

The EU I believe has now said this is no longer to be allowed, as it was restricting the freedom of labour movement through Europe. I think the EU threatened to sue the UK over this?

Agencies (both Polish, and UK probably) are already recruiting (some can be seen on this web site).
Is this yet another 'ploy' to use cheaper labour in the UK, but now through agencies to take what used to be secure NHS jobs?

You can almost guarantee the migrant nurses 'flooding' into the UK will work for an agency (who will take most of the money) giving out poor contracts, at lesser salary, than 'normal' NHS' employees. Are the Eastern Europeans to be exploited yet again?

I would imagine British people would rather have medical staff who are comfortably fluent in English, and like to know the nurses are properly qualified, with checkable backgrounds.

Why does the UK no longer want to train its own youngsters, or offer permanent employment to recently newly qualified nursing staff? Are they becoming too expensive?

It might seem that the EU is continually to the detriment of the UK, while rewarding the so called 'developing' nations?
Anyway some points to ponder. It's only a discussion, comments welcome from both British, Polish, and anyone else who has an opinion on this matter.

No they are paid the same wages as their counterparts in the same jobs.


The jobs are always secure, have you tried sacking a nurse when we have all the backing of the unions. These days you can't even sack someone who is drunk on the job. Trust me I've tried.


Show me an example of a contract that is paying less money than a UK worker.


Probably, but their language is checked during the interview process and most of them will have CAE certificates.


They can't get a job unless they are.


That is why they must go through an enhanced disclosure.


They do, there are plenty of places avaliable for newly qualified nursing staff, both via the NHS or privately. Check your local paper, the NHS usually takes out a whole page in the employment section.


Or that they are putting in place rules so that hospitals and private health care firm can provide enough staff so that they do not have to pay out of their pockets to UK agency staff who cost upto 50% more.

Problem the NHS has at the moment are the staffing levels are far below any other EU country. At least this law (which actually has been in place in the UK for years) allows hospitals more freedom to recruit staff. If you look deeper in recruitment laws you will also find that we are allowed to recruit people from far far outside the EU.

Unfortunately, some qualifications from Poland (and likely other Eastern European Countries, perhaps also UK?), etc, have been proved to be forged. Corruption was rife in these countries in the past, it was a way of life. I know they are trying to improve things, but it doesn't happen overnight.

Sometimes the verification process, and record keeping is not as efficient in Poland, etc, as it is in the UK. I have seen forged qualifications myself, though obviously I cannot go into great detail over this on line.


I think in Scotland, newly qualified nurses are no longer guaranteed permanent employment through the NHS as they used to be? I believe this stopped two years ago. Not sure about England?


Language testing in Poland is sometimes known to be flawed! I think they call the English test 'Merlin?' test, or something like that? It is common knowledge that 'English' students in Poland frequently sit this test in other peoples names to get good results If the testing was to be done in the UK that might be better.


Some workers for British Companies, are employed through British agencies, with agents outwith the UK, this can be for tax evasion or other reasons....The 'no, or little' reciprocal tax agreement that exists only between Poland and Cyprus, within the EU is an example of this.

Though not common knowledge, it is often used by British Companies.
These contracts always pay less than British rates, taking advantage of the 'no, or little tax' loophole. After all, what most people (migrant workers) only care about, is the cash in their pocket, not deductions.....or whether the country of employment is receiving any tax.


How do the agencies make their money then, they are not charities? Do they not take the money that should be going to improve conditions of workers, regardless of whether they are Eastern European or British.


ns, or British?

Is an enhanced disclosure not only a check within the UK......I didn't think it could be done through Poland, or other Eastern European countries?

I thought Police checks are only done on the history of foreign workers from the date they entered the UK.
That is why so many migrant workers so readily got employment at Heathrow Airport, and even in the Houses of Parliament.

The new nurse program at Polish universities is very good.

I most certainly hope not. The Polish reputation of an 'immigrant culture' isn't good in this aspect. The medical and healthcare fields of Poland have been indeed dropping according to W.H.O. statistics. It's obvious that the money is the key goal here, but the more the Polish medical sector slumps the less money there will be in the long-run, so it's like fighting fire with fire. I think there ought to be restrictions. The EU lifts these barriers as if people simply migrate to other regions for the sake of new location, but as we see now the mass disporportion of immigration amongst EU countries, it's more than that.


This too, and this applied all over Europe. In Italy and Greece these forgings are worse than Poland. If there's too many damn nurses and unemployment is reaching highs in these fields, why make it easier and less secure to take these positions? The UK has effecient healthcare, such loop-holes could bring it down. I say make it harder and keep the overly-qualified individuals and throw out the rest for a more efficient system. These liberal ideals of all for all and none for none have never benefitted the medical system, only utilitarian ideals simply so and put. Whether it be in research and pharmaceuticals or simply nursing...

I say this as a pre-med student myself hoping to get into medical school. So I am in the boat with all these students hoping to become doctors, surgeons, nurses, researchers, etc. But I devote myself to greater good of the healthcare system and medical areas, not my own selfish needs to get the job, and get the money, and get all the "goods". You either are or you're not in the medical field, if not then **** off somewhere else as opposed to cheating the system and forging crap bringing the system down with you... atleast that's my philosophy.

That's the same in every country. Poland ain't some third world country where everything is corrupt. Plus as I said before the enhanced disclosure will deal with that.


Yes you can, as long as you do not disclose the identities of the person or the hospital.
So please share your info.


They are not guaranteed employment, no. This rule was changed due to the high demand of newly qualified nurses in the private sector. No point guaranteeing someone a job if A.There aren't any straight away (I had to wait almost 4 months before I could get a placement). B. Most newly qualified nurses will look at employment in the private sector first due to the increase of pay.


That's just BS, you forget that I taught English for the best part of 5 years in Poland. If someone was unable to communicate at a sufficient level to work in a hospital then they wouldn't pass the tests CAE, IELTS whatever and secondly this would be spotted during the interview process. Thirdly they would be spotted out by their superiors at work.


Again, where are you getting this information? It would be highly illegal for any NHS board to pay someone less than the next person in the same job. The hospitals who use agency staff will pay a percentage extra to the agency. Meaning actually hospitals will pay more for agency staff. This is why many NHS boards have their own recruitment agencies for foreign staff. Which also means they can double check employee backgrounds.


Yes the enhanced disclosure also checks the with authorities in other countries in the EU (plus The Philippines, which is another country the NHS and private sector can recruit from due to special laws that passed almost 10 years ago) thoroughly. Polish staff must also provide a KRS form which is basically a police check in there own country, someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm told it's pretty thorough also. Though an enhanced disclosure is really enough.

This is starting to sound like another...they're here to steal our women ect thread.

All I can add is that when I post an advert for a care or nursing staff job vacancy, everyone whether they are British or European must go through the same procedure, must be vetted by ourselves, will go through the same interview process and whoever is better suited to the position will get the job regardless of nationality. I'm not there to provide jobs for Brits, I'm there to make sure the patients get the highest possible calibre of care.

Sort of.

New immigrants (and UK citizens returning to the NHS after a few years abroad) are paid the same as newly-qualified nurses, irrespective of experience. It takes about seven years to climb back to the top of the scale. It is therefore obvious that some (if not all) employers would rather go abroad, rather than pay someone up to £7K a year to do the same job, if the opportunity is there.

The fact that a nurse with 20 years experience may only get paid £7K an year more than someone who is recently qualified is shameful enough in itself, but employers clearly do not think so. It's obvious that employers are rubbing their hands at the prospect of "getting the job done" for £20.5K p.a. instead of up to £27.5K.

As a consequence of this, applicants for nurse training or nursing jobs will fall, which will give the papers yet another opportunity to claim that nursing is another job "which British people won't do".

Everyone knows that "frontline services" will NOT be protected - Governments LOVE the jobs which keep people under control - i.e., managers and faceless clipboard-waving bureaucrats - and nursing posts will form the majority of posts to go in the forthcoming NHS cuts. Yet the EU is imposing YET ANOTHER law on us which will make it even more difficult for British workers to find jobs!

This country is clearly heading for widespread race riots or even civil war unless we leave the corrupt EUSSR.


I strongly suspect that my ex had forged qualifications, but as I cannot prove this, I couldn't really do anything about it. But based on the questions she asked me (which even a first year nursing student should be able to answer) I simply couldn't believe that she had over a decade's experience in ICU/PACU/

Anaesthetics in Poland - unless, of course, Polish nurses working in such areas are simply there to do the sort of things which anyone can do (washes, position changes etc) and have no clinical role (giving drugs, making decisions on fluid management, etc) - but I do not believe that this is the case. All the other Polish nurses I have met seemed well-trained, intelligent and knowledgable.


True. But in my experience, employers have other ways of getting rid of people who rock the boat - turning a blind eye to bullying, denying them training opportunities, changing their rota so it makes life more difficult for them, etc. I've seen plenty of this during my working lifetime, so I can definitely imagine some employers allowing this to go on, so that experienced (better-paid) staff will move on, in order to replace them with someone who costs up to £7K per annum less.

I'm a medical student in Poland. And I don't believe you. Give us the source.

In fact, I think the opposite is true.

Can be the case, but for example it can otherwise be different. If the experience is clear for all to see, you may be lucky like me to be offered a higher position. At the end of the day it would look pretty damn stupid if you had a Ward Manager seeking advise from someone who has more experience but is in a lower position. I'm lucky enough to work in a place where things are a lot fairer. You get your bad places or good places in all walks of life. My Polish staff are all well trained, intelligent and can be left on their own to do their jobs well. Of course I have had instances where they didn't work out (more with my care staff members) due to not really knowing the responsibility that comes with the job I.E coming to work still pissed out their brains ect. But that is not directed at Poles but at all nationalities. Just because one Pole turns up drunk and is sh1t at their job, doesn't mean we can tar them all with the same brush....if that was the case I'd have no British staff at all :D


Again, this should have no bearing what so ever on care. The primary function of any care giver is to provide the best treatment as possible regardless of who they are. Lets take politics out of the question. As a patient you don't really take into consideration who is giving you the care, as long as you are receiving the best possible service you can expect.


Of course, but that's generally a rule we all come under. With all the rules that prevent us from being able to "let go" of someone who is clearly not up to the job and could be a danger to the patient, it's neigh impossible these days to get rid. But again I point out that if you have a good vetting system and have good management who can make sure they hire only the best employees, then you shouldn't really have to get rid of anyone.

Just to sign off, I will give you an example of something that I had to go through recently.
An employee at my work had turned up on at least 3 occasions stinky of alcohol, on all these occasions she admitted to being under the influence. One of these occasions she had seriously injured a patient by leaving them in bed without cot-rails. Of course that patient fell out of bed whilst asleep and broke their arm, dislocated their shoulder and fractured their skull. Obviously this person was being monitored but on a busy critical care unit its impossible to watch someone 24/7. Now what I am complaining about is that due to current law, I had no other option but to let this person continue to work, as long as she agreed to counselling. I wasn't even allowed to suspend her after this accident due to the fact her union would come down on us like a house of bricks. Stupid, sheer stupidity.

Sorry today I'm in a ranting mood! :D

P.s on the agency issue. The agencies are paid a "finders fee" for every employee that is accepted after the interview process. They are not paid a percentage of the employees wages. This way it is more beneficial for the agency to make sure staff are up to the job.


Agreed! The medical uni in Krakow is internationally recognised.

I can assure you plenty of English females and males train to be nurses, my sister is a lecturer at Salford Uni and teaches plenty, you might want to ask why the government changed the system so that now nurses in this country dont actually get a great deal of training on the wards before they are let lose on patients, Im not saying they are "dangerous" far from it, but the practical experience which was once gained has now been replaced with lots of paperwork..Last time I was in hospital I had a lovely Spanish lady looking after me, I couldn't have wanted for better care, her English was also flawless.

I think Dave will back me up on this? (regarding the training)


Bank work has always been a way for nurses to top up their wages...All my family have done it.

The OP might want to ask why a considerable amount of our nurses go abroad working in private clinics? My cousin is a cardiologist and was offered a research post in the US, so its not just a one way street.

But regarding agencies, I think after Daniel Ubani incident I think they are more wary about the level of English a person possesses.

I will add this, there are far more nurses trained in this country than there are jobs and as NMP pointed out more services will be cut, certain A&E units are now closes in the evenings in the Greater Manchester area, thus diverting services to already over used hospitals...The idea of bringing nurses from another country in masses will cause many problems for the NHS, the unions will fight tooth and nail to stop it.

The number of placements that nurses do on their training has been cut yes and I'm in agreement with you that it shouldn't have been. Practical experience is just as important as Theory, learn by doing ect. Also there have been new rules introduced that prevent trainees being more hands on and now seem to be more observers.


Yep and that is fine, as long as places dont become to reliant on it ;) I've seen some shocking examples of care homes being run only by agency staff. At the moment we use agency (bank) staff only in emergencies and I;m in the process of stopping that all together.

British trained nursing staff have a world wide appeal. We are losing more of them than any other time in the past to Australia, US and Canada.

Thats because the training used to be second to none, my sister hates the way things have gone and doesnt believe its the way to produce "good" nurses.


They're privately run and they dont care about the primary care of the person in their care - its a bit like "care in the community" for the mentally ill - we have actually forgotten what "care" actually means!

What your view on the lift of of the cap for use of facilities for private patients with in NHS hospitals?

I personally think this government is going to run the NHS in to the ground and go the way of the US, we will have several over-subscribed hospitals for NHS care the rest (the newer ones) will end up being private!

This is sounding very much like an Agency (possibly based overseas, Poland?) with a blatant financial interest in recruiting from outside the UK.
Some interesting points raised.


The agencies I refer to under this section of (Cypriot 'no tax' agreement within EU) do not relate to Health care, or Nursing (as far as I know, they might in the future!) They refer to other types of migrant labour from Poland. Mostly these people are still resident in Poland but travelling to work for a few weeks then returning home.

It was used to show there are lots of loopholes being exploited throughout the EU (often by British employers).
Poland is a country to be admired in some ways, I also am fairly familiar with their culture. I'm sure their medical training today is greatly improved. In the long distant past it was reknown for it's superior teaching.

However in the more recent past Poland (amongst other ex Eastern block countries) was 'known' for corruption. In Poland ( not too long ago)
it was never a question of what you knew, but purely a question of 'who you knew' or what influence you had.
Old attitudes change very slowly.

So why are you referring to them in a thread about Nursing and healthcare?


Pffft, come on. What it is sounding like is a D/M. At least have the manners to ask what I do for a living and why i seem to know a lot about the subject.


What?! modern Poland is far beyond what you seem to know about it.


The same can be said for the UK, USA or any other country.


If it doesn't increase the waiting times for other "ordinary" patients then I'm all right with it (But it won't, money talks). In our country now we need all the money we can get for the NHS. Unfortunately I don't think people should deserve a better level of healthcare due to how big their wallets are.

Not quite, and you should be aware of that, if you know Poland as you claim. You must be aware of it's rife corruption in years past.

Poland (like most ex Eastern Bloc countries) was always..... 'not what you know, but who you know'. Corruption was an accepted way of life under communist rule. Perhaps you are to young to remember this, but it was brought about through necessity.

Old attitudes change slowly, but hopefully they do change for the better.
Perhaps the new EU Poland does not like to be reminded of it's 'skeletons in the closet'. A 'thorn' in the flesh?
Try bribing a Police Officer in the UK and see what happens?

Past years yes. Today is a different time. But again you are going off topic but I'm starting to see the point why you made this thread...

Try bribing a police officer in Poland and see what happens? They're absolutely terrified of accepting bribes these days at the ordinary officer level - and while high level bribes obviously exist, it's exactly the same case in the UK.

May I remind you about Thomas McGraw? He wasn't called the Licensee because he owned pubs!


To troll?


Can be easily done. It's actually rather easy to get a police check done in Poland, and certainly much easier than the time and hassle spent obtaining an enhanced disclosure.


It's painfully obvious that you know little to nothing about Poland apart from hearsay. The Cambridge examinations are rigorously scrutinised, and while there was known to be huge problems with cheating in Greece - Poland hasn't had anything like the same level of problems. I know a few Cambridge examiners personally, and all of them have the same no-nonsense attitude - if you're caught cheating, you're out of the entire exam.

As for sitting exams in someone else's name - unlike the UK, it is standard practice in Poland for identification cards to be placed on the desk in front of the student.

Sorry, but your "common knowledge" is very much just nonsense heard in the pub ;)

Yep, thought so from his very first post. But the subject matter is close to my heart so thought I would try to educate some people. :)

I quite agree with your concerns.
I am not completely ignorant about nursing as some other 'posts' (people wearing rose tinted glasses) are indicating in this forum.
My daughter qualified about 3 years ago as a nurse, after intensive training through many medical departments, with exchanges overseas! Her training was intensive, and she suplemented her income by working as a carer 'as and when' possible. She studied through Robert Gordon's. Her funding was provided by the Scottish government. This was her second degree course.

She is now a staff nurse in the operating theatre.
Her year was the final year to be guaranteed 'placement / employment', through the National Health Service I believe.
Incidentally the drop out rate for British student nurses was actually horrendous for this degree course. Few finished the three years training. Does this indicate low 'entry level' academic qualifications to start with for many?

A Polish girl also studied alongside my daughter, she did not benefit from Government funding but paid all herself, taking any part time work that was available in order to survive. She is to be admired, and is now also a fully qualified nurse working and living permanently in the UK.

Friends of my daughter who have qualified in nursing recently, are not finding it easy to get permanent employment through the National Health Sector. No guarantees are given through training on future employment in the UK. Not all nurses want to work the private sector as was indicated elsewhere.

Why on earth then are we opening the 'door' to a potential flood of nurses from Poland, etc.
These people are only coming to the UK for purely economic reasons (money), and will not question anything, or try to improve conditions for nurses as they are already doing 'very nicely' compared to rates of pay in their own country!

The migrants, and the agencies will do very well out of this.
Agencies are greedy, they take the money that should go to the worker in the first place! In this case the nurse.
In other sectors of employment throughout the UK (and Europe), when agencies become involved.....working conditions, and often standards drop. It is seen time, after time!

The race to the bottom continues, with an ever greater search for cheaper migrant labour.

It was fascinating to read, cheers for that :)

It's pretty obvious that he doesn't know anything about the subject matter - sounds like someone has had an unpleasant experience with a Polish girl who took all his money and now he's taking it out on them ;)

His constant referrals to mystery "no tax" agreements do interest me, I've asked a lawyer today and he's never heard of it, except the usual dodges associated with shipping that Brits benefit from as well.

"Nursing staff from Eastern Europe about to 'flood' into UK ?"
What nationalities? Lithuanians? Latvians? Estonians? Russians? Belarussians? Ukrainians? Or maybe... No it can't be any intellectual person knows that Poles are either Central Europeans or Western Europeans (There are so many in Western Europe no kidding!)

But weren't you the one saying you had no idea of what happened regarding training in Scotland...hmm something fishy here I think.


Thats interesting, you say that happened in Scotland? Maybe you could enlighten us with which NHS board she was guaranteed with. I'd certainly like to bring that up with the CC when I next meet them.


Strange, Polish people qualify for funding under Scottish law if they were accepted by the RNC.


I find that hard to believe, there are over many many job placements in Scotland for nurses. Explain why they didn't go private? also explain why you think the government should entitle them to a job after paying all their course fees.


Yes we all understand that. Are you saying that people should be given jobs without the experience of working in those units. As has been stated before, its dangerous to give important jobs to those who haven't had training in that field.


Yes, please explain that to the 40bout Polish staff who have been employed in my work for the past 7 odd years.


If anything, they are the first to question everything.


Erm again you try to make point that they are here to steal jobs. By doing this you are attempting to make it look like Poles (funny how you refer to the EU but keep talking about Poles) are stealing jobs and dont have same values. Sorry but every Polish nurse I know (and thats a lot) take up the same opportunities, i.e ar union members ect. That only increases the power of the unions and their nursing staff.


I've already pointed out how the agencies work with the NHS and in the Private sector. Do you read anything or do you just take the word of someone who is at the first line of care to be nonsense?


Yet you cant back this up. Again another attempt at trying to change the discussion YOU started into a "Poles are stealing our women thread".


Troll...

Try not to be so insulting, you obviously don't like the UK. Raise your levels from the gutter, try to take off the 'rose tinted' glasses.

Unless of course you are a Polish (or possibly British) Nursing Agency by any chance, perhaps worried of losing business from future migrant labour? You've obviously got some financial interest in introducing migrant nursing labour to the UK

For your information I know a lot about Poland, visit frequently, and travel worldwide in my work. I often work alongside Polish people (many of whom I admire). But you can say whatever you like, it is easy to hide behind a computer monitor.

I can't help but feel that there is a Nursing agency (either British, or Polish) involved in a lot of these replies, as they are getting awfuully upset! There must be money at stake?

Agencies never like criticism.
Wouldn't surprise me if the people who are presently advertising (on this website) for nurses from Poland to apply for work in the UK..........are responsible for the rude comments.

Who is being insulting now?


Here we go again, whats ur problem with agencies? Would you prefer someone to die due to the lack of staff? Again, like I said before, the rules that apply to agencies are fair and thorough. But then again you're not looking for facts, just a kick.


Michal???


Parawhatnow? I can tell you, no one on this forum is with an agency.


You have yet to criticise. Just made an ass of yourself :D

Ok then answer my legit question, what NHS board offered your daughter...ahem a job before she was qualified? Simple question, no need to give details, just the board only.

Isn't it strange how all this info from one man asking so called questions but yet he completely ignores the only person on this forum who actually is a nurse...

You talk bollx - I'll refer you to this:

theasiantoday.com/article.aspx?articleId=1834

Ya think?

BTW, its not a link to the DM!

Your completely correct, all else is wrong. You are the font of all knowledge. Don't need any more insults. I give up! Bye.

When did I set up a website :P

Anyhow, I hope anyone reading this thread will see through the BS.

Another day, another troll....

One year job gaurantee
scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/280040/0084326.pdf

Agency spending down by £3m
nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/acute-care/spending-on-agency-nurses-in-scotland-cut-by-3m/5016672.article

Nurse training - going down the pan - many training placements are in the private sector.

It's not a given. No one will take on a newly qualified nurse who didnt do well during their placements. That is why on the very first line on ur link they say that all students in their last 3 months of training have to start looking for employment. Also, if they have done well on placements during their training, they are likely to be offered a position. Good nurses wont be let through the net that easily.


Due to the fact that we are doing our best to cut down on money to spend elsewhere. I say spend elsewhere, most likely the extra we make through not going to agency will not be spent elsewhere.


You could say yes, but not because foreigners are training here.

True.


Scottish government are coming down hard on boards that are trying to make short term savings by not filling posts and using agency workers instead.


Training probably better in some other countries :-(