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No job unless you're Polish


Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Mar 2010 #121
A referendum should be issued for sure but too little, too late. Britain showed its 'I'm alright Jack' stars very brightly as they knew that the working and lower-middle classes would be hardest hit. They don't really give a stuff for people who lost their jobs and may have to retrain. The saving grace is that benefits are pretty decent but we are swiftly moving down the path of becoming a society of dependents. Those who tried to make the nuclear family idea work are now paying the price, often through no fault of their own. I can only hope that loyal servants to their chosen profession receive a good payout at the end of the day through constant NI contributions.
Arien 3 | 721
15 Mar 2010 #122
There aren't many Chinese people in rural Britain.

Not yet.

I know Chinese people speak pretty good English (we have a large Chinese community in Manchester and never come across one that didnt speak English)

Same here, but in most cases, those are second or third generation immigrants. These people are also educated. I'm talking about the rural folk in China, not the ones who came from cities like Beijing. (I've heard they might be allowed to work in Europe in the not-so-distant future.) But let's not wander off..

:)
OP RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
16 Mar 2010 #123
They were. They elected a Labour government in 2001 which ratified Nice, and they were offered a referendum on Polish workers in 2005 - which again returned a Labour government.

Let's not forget that the last election of note, the 2007 Scottish Parliament election saw a clear return for pro-immigration parties.

Did any of the above outline their support of an open border immigration policy in their elecetion maifestos?

Each and every opinion poll conducted on the issue of immigration has shown us that the vast majority of people want a much, much more stringent policy. How many people voted for Labour in the hope of them opening their borders to the world and its mother?

This logic is warped. In the 50s people of my country elected a very conservative, pro Catholic political party. Does that mean they supported child abuse?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,897
16 Mar 2010 #124
Did any of the above outline their support of an open border immigration policy in their elecetion maifestos?

The UK parties all supported it in 2001 and 2005. Support for the EU was implicitly a vote in favour of Nice and thus EU expansion. Let's not forget that the UK (and Ireland) could quite easily have prohibited Polish workers from working in the UK - and still could, up until May 2011.

As for Scotland - pretty much all parties recognise that Scotland badly needs more immigrants to pay for an aging population. There was actually quite a big fuss because the UK government attempted to stop a Scottish initiative to attract more talented non-EU citizens.

Each and every opinion poll conducted on the issue of immigration has shown us that the vast majority of people want a much, much more stringent policy. How many people voted for Labour in the hope of them opening their borders to the world and its mother?

Quite a few actually - who do you think many Guardian readers are voting for?

It's also worth noting that UK immigration is harder and harder these days for non-EU nationals. Even those from First World countries are finding it difficult.

I don't know what to say to opinion polls - as far as I see it, people will often adopt a more dramatic tone in opinion polls, but then when it comes to the crunch, they won't vote for a party which promises to change things. Just look at the UKIP vote in the EU election vs the UKIP vote in UK elections!

As I see it - 2010 is the perfect change for people to elect a government with a mandate to leave the EU. Will it happen? No chance.
OP RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
16 Mar 2010 #125
The UK parties all supported it in 2001 and 2005. Support for the EU was implicitly a vote in favour of Nice and thus EU expansion. Let's not forget that the UK (and Ireland) could quite easily have prohibited Polish workers from working in the UK - and still could, up until May 2011.

We rejected Nice 1. After that we were told that we were xenophobes and only 2,000 eastern euros would arrive per annum. Millions were spent on an advertising campaign depciting poor eastern europeans and for us to remember our history. Now, they said, it was our time to give. The EUnuchs pulled on the heart strings of the people, knowing quite well that we are one of the most charitable nations in the globe(we spend more on foreign aid, per capita, than any other nation. We donate more to charities, per capita, than any other nation.) Nice 2 barely scraped through. The turnout was down on the previous referendum, thus the EUnuchs won. Similar to Lisbon 2. Whats the point in voting, if your vote is ignored?

Put it to the people, ala Switzerland. Do you wish to leave the borders open to the citizens of the accession states or do you wish to see a work pernit scheme introduced.

We live in a democracy, right?

As for Scotland - pretty much all parties recognise that Scotland badly needs more immigrants to pay for an aging population. There was actually quite a big fuss because the UK government attempted to stop a Scottish initiative to attract more talented non-EU citizens.

Grand. When the immigrants age, who will pay their pensions? More immigrants?

Quite a few actually - who do you think many Guardian readers are voting for?

Actually, the last immigration poll conducted by the guardian showed us that their readers also support much stricter restrictions.

It's also worth noting that UK immigration is harder and harder these days for non-EU nationals. Even those from First World countries are finding it difficult.

I suggest you look up the numbers entering the country in 2009.

I don't know what to say to opinion polls - as far as I see it, people will often adopt a more dramatic tone in opinion polls, but then when it comes to the crunch, they won't vote for a party which promises to change things. Just look at the UKIP vote in the EU election vs the UKIP vote in UK elections!

Quite the oppossite. In todays PC world it is difficult for people to admit to the poll conducter that they want a restriction on immigration. People walk on egg shells in an attempt to avoid being labelled as a racist.

As I see it - 2010 is the perfect change for people to elect a government with a mandate to leave the EU. Will it happen? No chance.

The EU will be a distant memory in 25 years.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
16 Mar 2010 #126
Immigrants to pay for an aging population? How? They transfer a lot of their money back home. What tax comes off, comes off.

Anyway, let's get back on course. Was there a specific need for Polish in the job specification? If so, they are on more solid ground.
OP RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
16 Mar 2010 #127
Let us look at a hypothetical scenario.

Imagine for a second that a British company advertised a job available only to British workers, what would happen?

Well I will tell you. The vast number of immigrant *quangos would be up in arms foaming at the gob and screaming racist.

*Just out of interest, how many immigrant quangos have you got in the UK? We have over 200, god alone knows how many you have!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
16 Mar 2010 #128
I can't give an exact number, but many. The likes of Farage just needs to get his message spread to the masses. He is not a Nick Griffin or a Margaret Thatcher but tries to follow a rational path towards immigrational control. Britain has to accept the bad with the good and I stand by saying that. However, it is the potential for the situation to spiral out of control. Based on current responses, it would appear that that's what Brown wants but working class Britain won't just disappear. He needs to put some palliatives in place at the very least.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
16 Mar 2010 #129
In the 50s people of my country elected a very conservative, pro Catholic political party. Does that mean they supported child abuse?

That would depend on if it was in the party manifesto.
OP RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
16 Mar 2010 #130
Thats my point, it wasnt. Neither was the importation of vast throngs of foreigners in Labours election manifesto.
Arien 3 | 721
16 Mar 2010 #131
I've been jobless for four months now. I'm happy to tell you guys I feel like breaking a brick on someone's face.. (But I shouldn't threaten Jan Peter Balkenende, because he might sue me if I did, so that's why I technically didn't.)

;P
voice of reason - | 32
18 Mar 2010 #132
I work in business management and this kind of thing is more common than people imagine, I don't blame the ordinary Polish people at all, the British government are the main culprits (mind you, they are dictated to by the undemocratic EU), it is also an effect of globilisation, we regularly benchmark wages and the spending power of the average worker has steadily declined not just because of the recession but over a much longer period. It is worth noting that these jobs would only pay the national minimum wage which to a British person with a family and a mortgage wouldn't even cover basic living costs, these 'sweatshop' employers routinely source cheaper foreign labour via agencies or gangmasters receive payments via the EU cash cow and knowing they are highly unlikely to be conversant with employment law, be members of a trade union and they can be exploited by working overtime at the basic rate, have unpaid breaks and often have 'hidden costs' such as transport, work clothing etc deducted from their wages. My small company has 100% British staff, many of my workers have been with me for over 10 years and I have never had to dismiss or even seriously reprimand anyone, it is fair to say nepotism plays a part in finding a job, for example I will be taking on one of my staff members son when he graduates, I have already inteviewed him and he can leave university knowing he has a job, whenever someone leaves (which isn't very often) I either source the job locally or more usually ask around and if someone I or a friend knows personally has the relevant qualifications/experience I take them on (at a lot more than minimum wage I hasten to add), I am sure Poles 'look out for their mates' in the same way. It is interesting to see people describe the British as 'unproductive' and 'lazy' when you consider they wouldn't have had continually developing mass communication via the printing press, postage stamps, television, radio, ipods and of course the very method we are using now, the internet without British inventors.
Varsovian 92 | 634
18 Mar 2010 #133
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with nepotism. You hire someone you know and trust - and if he doesn't deliver then you sack him and have a row afterwards!

Often, in low paid jobs, people wouldn't have the jobs if the pay rate were higher - it would simply be done by machine.

The wider, long-term social costs are hard to calculate - essentially, white Europeans will fit in over time; statistically, Indians outperform whites, Pakistanis gain roughly equivalent academic qualifications but get worse jobs (racism + social/cultural problems), whereas Bangladeshis and Somalis are the pits in terms of all indicators.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #134
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with nepotism. You hire someone you know and trust - and if he doesn't deliver then you sack him and have a row afterwards!

Nepotism is when you hire that person even if they're not qualified for the position. If they are qualified and you hire them, that's not nepotism :)

I stopped hiring people I know a long time ago, it's harder to separate personal issues from professional issues. I'll take referrals, and give referrals, and have built up good personal relationships with people that have worked for me...but hiring friends or family usually bites you in the ass.
voice of reason - | 32
18 Mar 2010 #135
My business is small enough for me to know everyone personally and to interview them myself but large enough to have a bit of influence, we don't currently employ any Polish staff as we currently have no vacancies and no Poles with the appropriate qualifications/experience have applied, we will have a vacancy in a few months but I am taking someone on via a graduate scheme.

Let's be honest, large corporations want to make as much money and pay as little as possible, these 'Mcjobs' for Poles are no different in principle to companies outsourcing their call centres to India (and tell me with a straight face that has been a success!), I'm no different but if I make a lot of money and subsequently pay a lot of tax, I still enjoy a good lifestyle, I can pay my staff a decent wage and life hasn't reached an end, I maintain that hiring a person with strong links to the local area is much more beneficial to the UK economy as well as ensuring you have a more motivated workforce, a person with a mortgage, who pays council tax and who isn't sending money abroad is more likely to be a loyal employee than a migrant who lives in shared accomodation, pays no council tax or utillity bills, sends money out of the country and often even claims child benefits and tax credits, much is made of the fact that a migrant has to work for a year before claiming benefits, so what? If someone only contributes a minimal amount for a year but then takes out of the system much more and for much longer than they put in, you don't need to be an economist to work that one out.

We even get approached by agencies offering us 'incentives' to take on migrants give them 13 weeks work in exchange for 'payments' and to make the (various) figures look good, I have a business to run and I'm not getting involved in these stupid games, I only hire qualified/experienced staff and I'm not being used as a guinea pig in some social diversity exercise.

Rant over.
Bzibzioh
18 Mar 2010 #136
I stopped hiring people I know a long time ago, it's harder to separate personal issues from professional issues. I'll take referrals, and give referrals, and have built up good personal relationships with people that have worked for me...but hiring friends or family usually bites you in the ass.

I agree. Hiring friends or family members is by far the worst idea. As well as your school mates. Very messy and uncomfortable for all involved at the end.
Mister H 11 | 761
18 Mar 2010 #137
If someone only contributes a minimal amount for a year but then takes out of the system much more and for much longer than they put in, you don't need to be an economist to work that one out.

Indeed you don't. I think that it should be five years of tax and NI before anyone can start claiming state benefits and that those that are too young to have paid in should have the record of their parents taken into consideration.

From what I understand, the current qualification for benefits is 12 months of tax and NI for foreign nationals from EU countries and that this is going to be reduced to just 3 months !!!!

The whole business of benefits is a farce from beginning to end. There just isn't the money to pay for it anymore. Hopefully the Tories will get in and end some of this current pantomime.

We even get approached by agencies offering us 'incentives' to take on migrants give them 13 weeks work in exchange for 'payments' and to make the (various) figures look good, I have a business to run and I'm not getting involved in these stupid games, I only hire qualified/experienced staff and I'm not being used as a guinea pig in some social diversity exercise.

Rant over.

I'm glad that you don't get taken in by such nonsense. It should be the best person for the job at the end of the day and it makes a nice change to hear of a boss with a 100% British workforce.

I don't care about a person's ethnic background, but I think that someone that is British through birth (of whatever skin colour) should have a better chance of a job than someone that is fresh off the boat.

As for the guys in the Asda pig factory, well they're probably being screwed over in some way or other, but it doesn't make it right that the job advert "accidentally" asked for Polish people only.

They may conduct the health and safety training in Polish, but if they ever needed to ring 999 it wouldn't be answered in Polish would it ??!!

This is just pandering to the notion that it is somehow ok not to learn the language of the country that you are living in. Learn the language or bugger off !! It's a simple as that !!

And yes the same goes for English people living in Spain that should speak Spanish to a decent level before anyone starts........
voice of reason - | 32
18 Mar 2010 #138
Indians outperform whites

Anyone who has ever had a mobile from 3 would dispute that! I detest those call centres, I switched my Norwich Union and Axa accounts because of the poor service, interestingly Barclays put business callers and customers with savings and investments through to the UK centre while people that are overdrawn, have no savings etc are shunted off to someone with a made up Anglicised name in Mumbai, it's incredible, I have a personal banker and finacial advisor while the average British customer is treated with such contempt that they get palmed off with these useless Indian call centres, another symptom of globilisation and corporate greed.
king polkagamon
18 Mar 2010 #139
I foresee a bloody conflict.Especially when workers get armed.We will see a cascade of terror.I really will applaud when the basterds get hanged.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #140
Take it from one who knows, it's complained about A LOT and letters are written and formal complaints noted. It changes nothing. Those that can afford to pick and choose simply go elsewhere.

People seem not to mind because they continue to decide that a higher level of service isn't worth the money. If people have extra money, they will probably leave quicker than those who have to sacrifice something else in order to get better service. Right now, they're not willing to make that sacrifice.
enkidu 7 | 623
18 Mar 2010 #141
Indeed you don't. I think that it should be five years of tax and NI before anyone can start claiming state benefits and that those that are too young to have paid in should have the record of their parents taken into consideration.

From what I understand, the current qualification for benefits is 12 months of tax and NI for foreign nationals from EU countries and that this is going to be reduced to just 3 months !!!!

I would go a step further. I think it would be fair and just that the state benefits shall be reserved for the citizens ONLY. What about the immigrants? Well - If they would work for the certain amount of time, support themselves, not causing any problems of the criminal nature, learn English, accept British tradition and contribute to the community - that's the kind of people who shall be granted the privilege of become the British subject.

Another solution (also fair one but little complicated) - That the benefits shall be granted on the rules of the country of origin. In case of Polish - 6 months of job-seekers allowance. And that's it.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
18 Mar 2010 #142
That the benefits shall be granted on the rules of the country of origin.

it is not gonna fly and you know it.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #143
I would go a step further. I think it would be fair and just that the state benefits shall be reserved for the citizens ONLY.

I'll go one further, do away with cash benefits all together. People need housing, give them housing in special areas only for people that are on benefits. Give them food and baby supplies stamped "A gift from the xxx taxpayer". Setup training centers in those communities which allow people free training and education if they don't like that life. Problem solved, where do I collect my peace prize?
f stop 25 | 2,513
18 Mar 2010 #144
I don't use any comanies which have Indian call centres

That would be impossible to do in US. That's if you have a credit card, fly commercial airlines, own a PC, etc. etc.
enkidu 7 | 623
18 Mar 2010 #145
I'll go one further, do away with cash benefits all together. People need housing, give them housing in special areas only for people that are on benefits. Give them food and baby supplies stamped "A gift from the xxx taxpayer". Setup training centers in those communities which allow people free training and education if they don't like that life.

More-or-less this is the Polish way, don't you think? Polish welfare system protect citizens from the death of starvation on the street. If the said citizen want some luxury (like car, holidays or self-esteem) he has to fight for it. There is no shame in being poor. The shame is to sit on hands and beg for mercy. In Poland - you can beg for 6 months (in some areas for 12). After that - you are on your own. I think it's fair.
Arien 3 | 721
18 Mar 2010 #146
If people would just pay someone a decent salary for simple work, and hand out a decent contract (Instead of promising a few months of work every time.) you will see that people will be motivated to work harder and show more loyalty. Why? Because a happy worker is a good worker.

There are more reasons though, just think about what a local worker can do for you when he or she earns a normal salary. He or she will spend more in the local stores, maybe call a plumber or an electrician when something needs to get done, he or she will visit the cinema, buy furniture, go for a drink in the local pub, participate in society..

What you invest in people will come back to you in a different way. As an employer, you might make less of a profit if you pay your people a bit more than the minimum each week, but I'm positive that most of you will easily survive that and will still make profits, and I'm 100% certain that your community will thrive as a whole.

Setup training centers in those communities which allow people free training and education if they don't like that life. Problem solved, where do I collect my peace prize?

If you're willing to pay your workers when they deliver quality, and you make education and additional training more accessible than it is now, then I'm sure most workers will do something to improve their situation on their own. I really believe that if you make education affordable for certain people, then more of those people might actually consider an education.

You reap what you sow. (It's almost a law of nature!) If you care to invest in people, then in one way or another, people will give you something in return, wether it's service or just positive behaviour in your own community. If all you do is take, take and take from people, then people will have nothing left to give, and they will probably start to feel useless, get depressed or aggressive, or they'll turn into a walking problem..

Some people just don't know what they want to do when they're teenagers, but that doesn't mean that those people will never figure it out. (I figured out that psychology interests me a great deal, and I want to study this, but I somehow couldn't figure it out in the past, but maybe this also had to do with a lack of information and opportunity back then.) That's why I believe education should be fairly accessible for people of all ages, because I believe we have a lot of potential walking around which isn't doing much at the moment.

I can talk untill I'm old and grey though, I'm not the one who's in a position to make any decisions, and I'm willing to take any job to finance my own study. I can honestly tell you that I've never claimed benefits, never recieved any kind of wellfare and I guess I'm stubborn like that! I'm currently jobless and running out of money, but I'm happy to tell you that I still haven't managed to humiliate myself by recieving someone else's money! (I do work the odd jobs on a blue monday from time to time, and I do change a few wires and lightbulbs every now and then, and it does help me to get by.) The reason I'm telling you all these bits and pieces about my story? It's not because I think I'm important, and I'm not looking for attention or anything, I just hope it'll help other people to see that there are young people like me, and I believe they all deserve a chance, because they'll be old and useless before you know it!

:)
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #147
If people would just pay someone a decent salary for simple work, and hand out a decent contract (Instead of promising a few months of work every time.) you will see that people will be motivated to work harder and show more loyalty. Why? Because a happy worker is a good worker.

That's my philosophy.

If you're willing to pay your workers when they deliver quality, and you make education and additional training more accessible than it is now, then I'm sure most workers will do something to improve their situation on their own. I really believe that if you make education affordable for certain people, then more of those people might actually consider an education.

That's the idea, provide as much opportunity as humanly possible. Take the money from the breeders, and give it to the people that are motivated to do something with themselves.
enkidu 7 | 623
18 Mar 2010 #148
Really - "take money, give money" "decent wages" "social justice". You really talking like commies did.
Some people are just plain stupid and lazy. They don't deserve a "decent life" if they are not willing to fight for it. Especially if a decent life is founded by others - hard working people. More especially if the "decent" means (like in the UK) an own house, owning a car, holidays in Spain, plasma TV set etc.

Its clearly visible in the UK. At first they pay a huge group of people just for sitting at home. An then the newspapers wonders why these people are not interested in education or work.

Immigrants filled this gap in the job market.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #149
Really - "take money, give money" "decent wages" "social justice". You really talking like commies did.

Decent wages are what people pay to get decent employees. I support decent wages for decent work, because I want to get the best possible people to work for me. I don't support decent wages because they are mandated by law.

If you're going to give support, you might as well do it through providing as much opportunity as possible to get people productive.
Arien 3 | 721
18 Mar 2010 #150
Really - "take money, give money" "decent wages" "social justice". You really talking like commies did.

You should keep in mind that I'm a social-liberal. (I believe in competition, but I also believe in equal opportunity.)

Some people are just plain stupid and lazy. They don't deserve a "decent life" if they are not willing to fight for it.

I can tell you from personal experience that I can't get anywhere - no matter how hard I'll fight for it - if no one is willing to offer me a contract. But they do let me work for a year and a half everytime, so this means I'm doing a good job. They just don't want to give you a permanent contract anymore. So maybe you could explain something to me then, if I'm such a communist, how the hell people are supposed to pay for an education if they can't even afford their own home? Do you want to call me lazy then? Feel free to ask all the employers I've had how lazy I've been.

Especially if a decent life is founded by others - hard working people. More especially if the "decent" means (like in the UK) an own house, owning a car, holidays in Spain, plasma TV set etc.

You can't afford any of the above when you're on wellfare. (Maybe a cheap flat or an appartment.)

Its clearly visible in the UK. At first they pay a huge group of people just for sitting at home.

Because no one invests in these people. Most of them are forced to sit home, but you don't get it, do you? (Probably because you're reading those tabloids and magazines all the time!)

An then the newspapers wonders why these people are not interested in education or work.

Well, I am here, telling you that I am, and I'm one of the many young people who are interested in personal development, but I'm also telling you very loud and very clear why I can't afford a study. (Yet.) Which part of my story didn't you understand I wonder? (My situation is very similar to those situations of people in the UK.)

Immigrants filled this gap in the job market.

No, they replaced your local working class, because most employers like the idea of having an endless supply of people they can pay less, and they're even happier when they don't have to promise anyone a contract or anything. You know what I keep hearing where I live? ''We don't have work for you.'' Guess what? If I look out of my window, I can see people work at the same company I called a few times. I have more than enough qualifications for that job.

I hope you'll be aware of the consequences for our future before it all gets out of hand, because at some point it will damage your own community, and when that happens there's no turning back. I'm willing to bet that you'll have more problems than you already seem to have now, but by all means, keep exploiting people and stick your head in the sand when they're trying to talk about a solution.

:)


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