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Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read!


Barney 16 | 1,669
27 Feb 2012 #31
There is a big debate going on in education in Britain at the moment, swirling around is the usual mix of Victorian values, half truths and assumptions.

In short social conservatives with a dislike of poor people want to bring a system back that has been rejected by almost all of Europe, a system that doesn’t work and in fact is only a marketing tool for the middle classes.

I'm really not sure what the point of the thread is?

Is it

How do children acquire a language?

How do children loose a language?

What is it about?

none of the motor skills to write.

That is a severe disability that would disbar the child from mainstream education, thankfully there are places that can offer help and support for an individual with such a severe disability.

He was not an exception. It appears to be the norm.

Really!!

Of course he was uncooperative and disruptive.

Why use of course, a lack of language doesn’t equal bad behaviour

This is a serious and interesting topic keep it decent.
Ironside 50 | 12,470
27 Feb 2012 #32
What is it about?

Would it be about a fact that some children are between languages?
SeanBM 35 | 5,792
27 Feb 2012 #33
One of the huge shortcomings of today's multiculturalism, certainly not just in Britain, is that people from many walks of life, living in a new country, are just meant to "get on with it".

You are completely wrong

So tell me how I am compeletly wrong?

I don't have time now but if you could clearify how I am completely wrong about my comment.
a.k.
27 Feb 2012 #34
hat is a severe disability that would disbar the child from mainstream education, thankfully there are places that can offer help and support for an individual with such a severe disability.

Good to know that most children in Poland would be considered disabled...
A reminder: in Poland children begin education at the age of 7. At the age of 6 they can attend pre-school (and most do) but it's not obligatory. In pre school they have many manual works to prepare hands to write. Kids are taught to write at the age of 7. You may critisize it but there is no real point of doing that earlier. In future they won't be harmed or disabled by the late start, really.
Barney 16 | 1,669
27 Feb 2012 #35
Would it be about a fact that some children are between languages?

School age children are not between languages they have one and are learning another or they have two together, developing children (Very young) can acquire more than one language simultaneously.

Children dropping language happens quite frequently but is not a process of losing a language they decide to stop speaking in the "foreign" language but can understand perfectly they may loose the language after a number of years again age dependent.

The third category is children without any of the host language. The ease with which they pick up the new language is almost exclusively dependent on age the younger the easier it’s acquired. It’s also independent of the parent’s ability to speak the new language, you can see the process in action on holiday when kids of many nationalities mix and start using "foreign" words.

A reminder: in Poland children begin education at the age of 7. At the age of 6 they can attend pre-school (and most do) but it's not obligatory. In pre school they have many manual works to prepare hands to write. Kids are taught to write at the age of 7. You may critisize it but there is no real point of doing that earlier. In future they won't be harmed or disabled by the late start, really.

I think you missed the point.
a.k.
27 Feb 2012 #36
Btw. I've always wondered if the early start of education in English language countries is forced by the complicated spelling rules? It's seems that the British etc. kids have many memory work to do... learn the spellling of all words of their language. Is that the case?
sa11y 5 | 331
27 Feb 2012 #37
In future they won't be harmed or disabled by the late start

They may not be harmed, but surely they lose some potential good of starting education earlier. If you teach them certain skills (like holding pen, forming small shapes on paper etc - even if it's not writing) they will be able to spend more time on learning other stuff.

I think Poland has bad education system, 7 years to start school is late. 5 years seems much better age. Of course schools have to be ready to teach small children (which in Poland they are not), but sending kids to school earlier than 7 is definitely good for them.
JonnyM 11 | 2,609
27 Feb 2012 #38
Btw. I've always wondered if the early start of education in English language countries is forced by the complicated spelling rules?

No. It starts early because that is the most effective system and educationally the best practice.

kids have many memory work to do... learn the spellling of all words of their language. Is that the case?

Not at all. Language doesn't work that way.
a.k.
27 Feb 2012 #39
developing children (Very young) can acquire more than one language simultaneously.

but there might be some problems with that e.g. mixing words from both languages, grammar mistakes etc. People thinks it's such a piece of cake... Just look at the Gruffi Gummi's yesterday post in the thread "Raising Bilingual Children - How are you teaching your children? Your experiences?"

Not at all. Language doesn't work that way.

I always thought that learning of the spelling in English language countries goes like that:
A teacher is showing a cardboard with the spelling of a word. Kids, this a word "you". Kids repeat. Then this is a word "apple". Kids repeat. Pure rote learning.

They may not be harmed, but surely they lose some potential good of starting education earlier. If you teach them certain skills (like holding pen, forming small shapes on paper etc - even if it's not writing) they will be able to spend more time on learning other stuff.

So what other stuff kids learn when they are 7 in Britain?
JonnyM 11 | 2,609
27 Feb 2012 #40
I always thought that learning of the spelling in English language countries goes like that:
A teacher is showing a cardboard with the spelling of a word. Kids, this a word "you". Kids repeat. Then this is a word "apple". Kids repeat. Pure rote learning.

No. That system doesn't work. There are several approaches, among the most controversial being phonics. Many children (usually those from educated families) can already read to an extent when they start school at 5.
a.k.
27 Feb 2012 #41
There are several approaches, among the most controversial being phonics. Many children (usually those from educated families) can already read to an extent when they start school at 5.

Could you sketch more less how they work?
Barney 16 | 1,669
27 Feb 2012 #42
For children acquiring a language is not done according to the rules of grammar the best you can say is that they just copy and workout the grammar later that’s why they always follow the rules they have formulated and it sounds cute but wrong.

Kids hardly ever get confused swopping between languages, they do it with ease in one language ie they have a play language with their peers and toys but know exactly where the boundary is.

Phonics is used to teach reading. Words are sounded out.
sa11y 5 | 331
27 Feb 2012 #43
So what other stuff kids learn when they are 7 in Britain

I don't know - I'm not in Britain.
In South Africa, the "official" system is same as in Poland, kids go to schools at 7. But lots of kids go to pre-schools from early age, they learn various things (mainly through play) - like counting, easy maths, writing, reading, things about environment.

The problem is when those kids go to state schools - because in state schools they will teach them same things all over again, so the kids that know those things already simply waste time.

In private school they simply continue on the base of what pre-school did, so kids have head start - rather than just learning simple things they do more reading, practical exercises, have more time for extracurricular activities because they don't have to spend time learning basics.

There is a massive gap in private and state education here - not all because of this of course, but this is one of the reasons.
JonnyM 11 | 2,609
27 Feb 2012 #44
Could you sketch more less how they work?

Phonics or home teaching?
sa11y
You've misquoted something to me.
sa11y 5 | 331
27 Feb 2012 #45
You've misquoted something to me

It was PF software - I corrected manually :)
a.k.
27 Feb 2012 #46
Phonics or home teaching?

I mean how kids are taught reading at schools? How such lesson look like?
JonnyM 11 | 2,609
27 Feb 2012 #47
Thanks for correcting - the software does that to me too sometimes.

Re. How a lesson looks, it's pretty well the same Europe-wide.
a.k.
27 Feb 2012 #48
Re. How a lesson looks, it's pretty well the same Europe-wide.

You really don't need to mock me.
JonnyM 11 | 2,609
27 Feb 2012 #49
No mocking intended!
Ant63 13 | 410
10 Mar 2012 #50
Could you sketch more less how they work?

Jolly damned phonics. This has to be the biggest joke in UK education at the moment. For anyone that hasn't seen this yet you are in for a suprise. For example an "L" is now pronounced "UL". Now find me an English word starting with "L" that can be pronounced "UL". It's rubbish and confusing when you have a letter like "A" that is pronounced in different ways dependant on oiuts relation to another letter.

I was told by someone in goverment that Jolly Phonics was introduced to schools by means of free materials; books, audio, etc which of course schools took up because it saved them money. A couple of years later having changed away from a long standing system that worked the materials became chargeable but to change back would have left some children in the wilderness.

Why use of course, a lack of language doesn’t equal bad behaviour

You are missing the point because it is not as simple as just a lack of language. We are adults and have developed self control and don't need to attention seek like a child. Surely you had slow learners in your class at school. Where these the ones who were regulary in trouble for minor but disruptive offences in school? Because they can't get the acclaim they feel they deserve by succeding in class they choose alternative methods of drawing attention to themselves. This is problably not on a conscious level and of course it's generalising but you can't begin to undestand any issue. I remember the gardenning crew from school well, and I also knew most of them well. One or two were plain bad but most of them were good lads really who had too much time on their hands.

So my point is if as a child you can't fit in and do what the other children are doing then you will become a shinking violet or attract the wrong kind of attention. So only partially to do with language but as language is generic to this topic its relevent.
Crow 160 | 9,195
10 Mar 2012 #51
Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read!

that`s the plan


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