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Polish immigrants in the UK - the next generation


UKcitizen 1 | -
5 Jun 2012 #1
Can anyone tell me - as of May 2012 what is the estimation of the number of poles in the UK (after a lot of them had returned to Poland)?

Also, I am doing research into the children of immigrants. Can anyone tell me the estimation number of polish children in the UK, and what would be their age range (or average range)?

Thanks,
terri 1 | 1,627
6 Jun 2012 #2
No one EVER will be able to give you these figures.
Who do you think keeps records of movements of people?.
jon357 63 | 14,128
6 Jun 2012 #3
The census figures are over a year ago and don't always reflect multiple occupancy. The Polish government can only accurately know about people who have registered with the consulate, which most don't. NHS Hospitals in the UK would certainly keep statistics about children who are born there and schools would keep statistics however I'm not sure if these are in the public domain.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
6 Jun 2012 #4
NWE: "An increasing number of Poles are choosing to have babies in the UK. An increasing number of Poles are choosing to have babies in the UK"
Ironside 48 | 9,824
6 Jun 2012 #5
Lol Star treks - the nest generation!
Where no man has gone before - is sounds erotic to me if not funny!
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
6 Jun 2012 #6
Can anyone tell me

No one knows. The government keeps statistics but there are alot of illegal Polish workers in the UK.
Harry
6 Jun 2012 #7
there are alot of illegal Polish workers in the UK.

How can a Polish citizen be in the UK illegally?
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
6 Jun 2012 #8
Easy.... they could be avoiding paying income tax for one alot of Poles in the Uk are working menial jobs/seasonal jobs in farming/factories/building sites and are probably their 'cash in hand' so wont count on any UK statistics.

They could also have been in the UK longer then 3 months without registering at the local job centre or whatever they have to do. Even in the 'mess that is the EU' you still can't just wander into another country without playing by their rules. In poland you have register within 3 months or you are illegal.

Poles can't just wander around willy-nilly.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
6 Jun 2012 #9
Poles can't just wander around willy-nilly.

Yes they can.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
6 Jun 2012 #10
They could also have been in the UK longer then 3 months without registering at the local job centre

Totally wrong.

In the UK, while an EEA Residence Certificate exists, there is absolutely no obligation to hold one. In fact, the UK Border Agency makes it clear that such registration is entirely voluntary.
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
12 Jun 2012 #11
ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/

Have a read.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
12 Jun 2012 #12
Have a read.

From your link : gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card

Under European law, you do not need to obtain documentation confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a national of a country in the EEA.

Boom!

The only time that the registration certificate comes into play in the UK is when you want a non-EEA family member to join you. You must then formally exercise your "treaty rights" to do so - but this is a formality.

So - for Poles - it simply isn't required at all.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
12 Jun 2012 #13
Have a read.

Thats the European Economic Area, not the EU.
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
14 Jun 2012 #14
peterweg

Whatever you still cant just live in a country without registering. In the Uk you would have to complete the census under section 8 of the census act if you are in the UK (its the law)

ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/what-is-a-census/how-information-is-collected-and-processed/index.html

'Everyone in the country was under an obligation to complete a census form, and a limited number of people were prosecuted for failing to comply with this obligation'

Also the may have to register to pay council tax, be registered with the inland revenue if you are working, have a tv license, want to use a hospital... the list is endless.

I can wander round any EU country willy nilly but not if i want to work or live in the country..especially the data hungry, cctv laden UK.
Harry
14 Jun 2012 #15
Whatever you still cant just live in a country without registering.

Utter rubbish. As is shown by the link you provided. Citizens of all EEA do not need to register in order to live in the UK.
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
14 Jun 2012 #16
What do they mean by live? If you read in my last post they would need to register somewhere in order to live... will they not work? pay taxes? rent a property? attend a hospital?

All Poles clue themselves up on Uk benefits before leaving Poland.... do they just hand benefits to unregistered people?
Harry
14 Jun 2012 #17
What do they mean by live? If you read in my last post they would need to register somewhere in order to live... will they not work? pay taxes? rent a property? attend a hospital?

They wouldn't need to register to pay taxes (their employer would do that). They don't need to register in order to rent a flat.

All Poles clue themselves up on Uk benefits before leaving Poland.... do they just hand benefits to unregistered people?

It's the UK, so most probably they do.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
14 Jun 2012 #18
It's the UK, so most probably they do.

Did you read about the Brazilian women last week. She claimed 180,000 GBP over a period of a few years by stating she was a single mother who had 12 kids, nobody from the DHSS bothered to even check on this. It then took 2 years to investigate and bring her to court. If she was of Brazilian nationality, how the hell was she able to claim in the first place?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
14 Jun 2012 #19
Whatever you still cant just live in a country without registering. In the Uk you would have to complete the census under section 8 of the census act if you are in the UK (its the law)

The census isn't any sort of registration, it's just a count for statistical purposes. The fact that they only come around every 10 years suggests that it really isn't much of a "registration' scheme.

Also the may have to register to pay council tax, be registered with the inland revenue if you are working, have a tv license, want to use a hospital... the list is endless.

Again - nothing to do with registering in the country as it's understood in the EU context.

There is no formal requirement to register your residence in the UK if you're from an EEA country.
Harry
14 Jun 2012 #20
There is no formal requirement to register your residence in the UK if you're from an EEA country.

Which does make me wonder why the Polish government force EEA nationals to register in Poland.

"Under European law, you do not need to obtain documentation confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a national of a country in the EEA." Would anybody happen to know which law the UKBA are referring to there?
Ironside 48 | 9,824
14 Jun 2012 #21
Which does make me wonder why the Polish government force EEA nationals to register in Poland.

Because Poland is a different country with their own rules and laws?
Harry
14 Jun 2012 #22
How surprising that you have never heard of concepts such as 'supranational law' and 'EC Directive'.
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
15 Jun 2012 #23
The census isn't any sort of registration, it's just a count for statistical purposes. The fact that they only come around every 10 years suggests that it really isn't much of a "registration' scheme

Really? The last on was last year 2011. If any Poles in the UK at the time ommited to fill in the census they could have been imprisoned. All documents that need to be filled in and sent to the Uk government by Poles to legally live in the UK are a form of registration. Correct there is no direct registration but don't kid yourself to think that Poles haven't registered the Home office know everything.

The people in the UK are one of the most watched citizens on the planet there is CCTV everywhere.

Apart from Government forms and taxes Poles fill in to live legally (council tax, tax forms etc) are also logged coming into and out of the UK as the UK makes all travellers to and from the UK provide passport information before arriving. I can live in Germany and travel to Poland without the Polish government ever knowing due to the Schengen agreement and therefore I can rent a house and run an illegal business and the Polish authorites would never know i was ever in Poland.... you simply can't do that in the UK.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
15 Jun 2012 #24
Really? The last on was last year 2011.

And the next one is in 2021. Hardly a reliable register, unlike the residency schemes operated in the Schengen zone.

All documents that need to be filled in and sent to the Uk government by Poles to legally live in the UK are a form of registration.

What needs to be sent to the UK Government? Very little - and none of them meet the definition of a "residency permit" as you claimed was a requirement for Polish citizens in the UK. Much of what you listed is dealt with locally, such as council tax.

Correct there is no direct registration but don't kid yourself to think that Poles haven't registered the Home office know everything.

Actually, it's very easy for a Polish worker to live off-grid.

are also logged coming into and out of the UK as the UK makes all travellers to and from the UK provide passport information before arriving.

Wrong. You can easily hop on a flight to Dublin Airport, take a bus to Belfast and sail across the North Sea without anyone being any the wiser and no passport information given.

Or did you forget that the UK has a roughly 200 mile unguarded frontier?
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
15 Jun 2012 #25
Clutching at straws! The republic is a non-schengen country Poles have to produce passports/card to enter. Im sure non British/Irish passengers on ferries would also need to produce a passport/id card...

taken from stena line... 'British or Irish citizens travelling on our Irish Sea routes do not need a passport to travel to Britain or Ireland but are advised to take a form of identity. A driving licence, citizenship card or utility bill will usually suffice. A birth certificate will provide adequate proof of identity for your child to travel on our sailings. Other passport holders should check with the relevant embassy regarding passport and visa requirements. '

I bet there's not alot of Poles working in Northern Ireland. So for a Pole to gain access to mainland Britain then they would be registered on the home office system. Date of arrival and the date they leave unless they are smuggled over in the back of a lorry.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
15 Jun 2012 #26
Im sure non British/Irish passengers on ferries would also need to produce a passport/id card...

No, you're the one clutching at straws. Anyone who has passed through immigration in Ireland knows that they tend to wave people through without much, if any of a check. So - our Polish friend has already managed to gain entry to the CTA without being known to the UK.

Then our Polish friend gets on a nice Bus Eireann waiting for him, headed to Belfast. The UK very, very rarely checks ID on the Irish frontier, so he's already in Belfast without any problems. Then.

Im sure non British/Irish passengers on ferries would also need to produce a passport/id card...

Why would they have to produce a passport/ID card when travelling inside the UK?

taken from stena line...

There is absolutely no obligation for them to carry any form of identity when sailing between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Advised doesn't mean "required" - and a utility bill is hardly a form of identification. So - our friend has now entered Great Britain, all without a single check by the UK authorities.

I bet there's not alot of Poles working in Northern Ireland.

Erm...Belfast is full of them.

. So for a Pole to gain access to mainland Britain then they would be registered on the home office system. D.

Registered where, exactly? Given that there is no obligation to produce any identification when travelling on internal ferries, how could the Home Office know anything about our Polish friend?
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
15 Jun 2012 #27
Registered where, exactly? Given that there is no obligation to produce any identification when travelling on internal ferries, how could the Home Office know anything about our Polish friend?

Did you read the link of Stena Line? Of course being a Pole you will know lots about the British love of security. ;)
Barney 14 | 1,469
15 Jun 2012 #28
Delph is 100% correct here.
gdyniaguy 1 | 281
15 Jun 2012 #29
Barney

No he isn't.... taken from stena line... 'British or Irish citizens travelling on our Irish Sea routes do not need a passport to travel to Britain or Ireland but are advised to take a form of identity. A driving licence, citizenship card or utility bill will usually suffice. A birth certificate will provide adequate proof of identity for your child to travel on our sailings. Other passport holders should check with the relevant embassy regarding passport and visa requirements.

the truth.....

or

There is absolutely no obligation for them to carry any form of identity when sailing between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Advised doesn't mean "required" - and a utility bill is hardly a form of identification. So - our friend has now entered Great Britain, all without a single check by the UK authorities.

the lies!!

We are talking about Poles travelling and not British or Irish Citizens.... what form of ID will a Pole be allowed onto a ferry with? an empik gift card? a krakow bus card? a polish utility bill? Call Stena and find out!
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
15 Jun 2012 #30
Did you read the link of Stena Line? Of course being a Pole you will know lots about the British love of security. ;)

What part of what you quoted says anything about the mandatory possession of identification, or the compulsory registration of such identification with the UK authorities?


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