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Thinking of buying an offplan Luxury Property Wroclaw


wielki pan 2 | 250
18 Jul 2011 #31
It isn't hard at all: week before last I applied for an unsecured loan of 53,000zl and was approved in less than ten minutes

Harry I was talking about a loan for 500,000zl plus.... 53,000 is peanuts... I bet the interest rate was about 22%?
Harry
18 Jul 2011 #32
12.7% if I remember correctly. Not too bad for an unsecured personal loan.
pawian 176 | 14,831
18 Jul 2011 #33
Hi, I am looking at buying an offplan luxury apartment. The location is great, 10 minutes walk from the Market Square of Wrocław but it seems very expensive at 3000 Euros / meter - What do you guys think ?

These slums for 3000 euros/meter ?

They must be crazy.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
18 Jul 2011 #34
It looks like the Angel Wings development is being actively marketed and may be partially completed.



  • last friday

  • last friday
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
18 Jul 2011 #35
I am looking at buying an offplan luxury apartment.

Stay away from off plan property in Poland! Too risky and stressful.Just browse on PF and you ll see that most developers were either dishonest or the flats are not built in time. Do not forget you are trying to buy in a post communist country where ( thank God not very body) many developers associate capitalism with cheating clients and Polish laws are not protecting real estate clients at all like anywhere in Western Europe.

There are hundreds of great places which are already built in Wroclaw and not too expensive so just look around and avoid stress and risks!
milky 13 | 1,657
18 Jul 2011 #36
Thanks for all this thoughtful input. Perhaps I can use my visit to educate myself rather than rushing to buy.

Why invest in Poland?? Property in Ireland has dropped 51% and it is expected to drop a further 10% this year. The minumum wage in Ireland is over 8 Euro an hour , while in Poland it is 2 euro an hour and property prices tripled between 2004-07 and remain stagnant.
AgnesApple - | 4
18 Jul 2011 #37
Thanks, Milky, for this guidance. I am considering purchasing a flat in Wroclaw because I go there every summer to teach and I like the city. I'm not familiar with Ireland as an investment, but it may be a better market, just not the right one for me. I might rent the flat, but it looks like the carrying costs would be low. Perhaps I'd just leave it vacant or just let friends and colleagues use it. You can see from this that I'm not a very disciplined or sophisticated investor.
wielki pan 2 | 250
18 Jul 2011 #38
How negotiable are the list prices? I would not need financing

Good idea... work out what type of apartment and location you like and if you are cashed up the sky is the limit.. as I mentioned in my previous post a big question mark hangs around the european financial markets and it may well mean that some properties will crash in the next couple of years.. Beware of people on this forum who masquerade as small time investors who in fact are in the business of selling land and properties. They have been wrong in the past as they will be wrong in the future.
milky 13 | 1,657
19 Jul 2011 #39
Beware of people on this forum who masquerade as small time investors who in fact are in the business of selling land and properties.

Beware of these people big time.
Harry
19 Jul 2011 #40
Beware of people on this forum who masquerade as small time investors who in fact are in the business of selling land and properties.

And which people would those be?
wielki pan 2 | 250
20 Jul 2011 #41
you must be pretty wet behind the ears if you carn't work it out..you don't have to be boy genius to work it out that things are bad in europe at the moment. Poland will not be buffered from the economic downturn.. or are you suggesting that there is gold in polish soil. Lets not kid ourselves that a lot of people who purchased properties in the last couple of years have had there fingers burnt.
ChrisPoland 2 | 123
21 Jul 2011 #42
For those of you looking for luxury apartments in Wroclaw which are available right now, consider Thespian. The developer is ING. They go for 12,000-16,000 per square meter and are fully fitted-out.
milky 13 | 1,657
22 Jul 2011 #43
you must be pretty wet behind the ears if you carn't work it out.

lol
What will happen in the near future, I wonder??
Avalon 4 | 1,068
22 Jul 2011 #44
Whatever happens, your predictions will be wrong, so why worry about it?
milky 13 | 1,657
23 Jul 2011 #45
Beware of people on this forum who masquerade as small time investors who in fact are in the business of selling land and properties. They have been wrong in the past as they will be wrong in the future.

I say no more..
Avalon 4 | 1,068
23 Jul 2011 #46
Very unlikely. you will be back in a few days spouting the same rubbish and predictions as you have done for the past 2 years.
By the law of averages, you have to be right one day, so keep at it.
milky 13 | 1,657
23 Jul 2011 #47
By the law of averages,

More like the laws of economics.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
23 Jul 2011 #48
Economics and supply/demand do not seem to be your strong points. Stick to the self serving predictions and your endless tirade against employers, landlords, estate agents and developers. Everybody has to deal with one off the aforementioned people during their lives. They provide a service, the same as a priest or a doctor. Surely you cannot hate everybody, there must be someone you like who does not make a profit from their labour's or profession?
milky 13 | 1,657
23 Jul 2011 #49
Economics and supply/demand do not seem to be your strong points.

Well, you are an admitted Thatcherite, so obviously, any viewpoint that opposes casino capitalism(real estate prn), is seen in your eyes as a lack of intelligence.

self serving predictions

lol, you know you are talking about yourself.

supply/demand

'
Plenty of supply and demand, except 'demand' is for prices based on Polish wages. Thats why the market is 'stagnant' and the gamblers who didn't sell before 2008 are sh1tting in their pance; and trolling website, looking to convince (Polish)fools, with savings from the West, that Poland is a special case and 'unlike', the rest of the world.

you must be pretty wet behind the ears if you carn't work it out..you don't have to be boy genius to work it out that things are bad in europe at the moment. Poland will not be buffered from the economic downturn.. or are you suggesting that there is gold in polish soil. Lets not kid ourselves that a lot of people who purchased properties in the last couple of years have had there fingers burnt.

Surely you cannot hate everybody,

No, just 'Chicago Boys'.

youtube.com/watch?v=cvG0gbvZ4tY
irlman35
11 Dec 2011 #50
I am heading to Wroclaw next week to make a decision on an apartment I purchased in the Angel Wings Development. Don't know whether to sell or rent? Is a two bed, 69 square meters. Is fully kitted out. Any ideas anybody?
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
11 Dec 2011 #51
Don't know whether to sell or rent?

when you get there check to see the percentage of sold/occupied units. that should help you to make your mind up.

also, anything facing the river will sell better than those facing rubble.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
26 Apr 2012 #52
Merged: Buying off plan, not yet built apartments from a developer in POland

Probably in the archive but I couldn't find it when I searched, so here's a question if anyone knows the answer.......

A developer is offering a reasonable price per square metre on flats or apartments that they are yet to build.

In the UK, we call this buying off-plan, AFAIK.

The developer wants a 50000zl deposit put down, that apparently guarantees they will sell me an apartment at the low price after they are built.

Typically - do developers set a deadline and guarantee to the buyer that the flat will be built by then or refund their deposit?

If the developers become insolvent, are there safeguards in place yet for the buyer to not lose their deposit?

Any other advice? Possibly to wait for prices to fall on already-built apartments might be the best idea, I know.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
26 Apr 2012 #53
Only two things come to mind:-

1) The developers bank may want him to have pre-sales of 20% before they lend them enough to finance the project. Any deposit should not exceed 10% of the value of the flat. Nothing wrong in this as long as the developer does not use your money.

2) The money should be kept in an escrow account to which only you have access. A contract should be written to ensure that the money will only be released to the developer when the building is legalised (all works completed in accordance with the project plans) at a date/price to be agreed with you both. You could also insert a penalty clause with the price reducing for every week beyond the completion date.

This should reserve the flat of your choice and is normally what I do with my clients.

If the developer requires your money to fund the building works then, you are taking a gamble which I would advise against.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
26 Apr 2012 #54
Thank you Avalon, if I go ahead I wil try to find out if the 5k is for the bank pre-sales clause, or just for building works to be funded. I'm also guessing that the finished project could be a long time off from when I put my deposit down, perhaps even a year.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
26 Apr 2012 #55
perhaps even a year.

Any decent developer will have a programme of works. A penalty clause will make sure he sticks to it. You should make an allowance for unforeseen, bad weather.
Jimmu 2 | 157
8 May 2012 #56
On our first trip to Poland I asked my wife if we shouldn't look at buying an apartment in a building undergoing remodeling very near her parents' place. The artwork looked great and the building would include underground parking and a playground. Oddly enough the asking price was 50,000 PLN....

On our second trip to Poland we found the developer had left the country, taking all the pre-payments with him. Luckily for us my wife had decided she wanted a house not an apartment.

Caveat Emptor seems to be the applicable phrase here.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
8 May 2012 #57
On our second trip to Poland we found the developer had left the country, taking all the pre-payments with him.

New laws came into force this year to stop anything like this happening again. Even so, a small deposit is only fair if a person wants to reserve a flat in a certain position with a favourable outlook. It is not fair on the developer (who maybe could have sold this flat several times over) to have the client withdraw from buying

when completion is imminent. Some clients who pay a deposit, make changes to the layout as the works proceed, walls not required, boiler re-sited to a different position, doorways moved, plumbing altered for bathrooms and kitchens and doors. This may suit them but not other clients who perhaps would have preferred the original layouts.

A nice couple with two teenage children bought a new flat off me 18 months ago. It was a large flat (120 m2), three large bedrooms, huge lounge, 300.000 PLN, developer standard. In February of this year the buyer contacted me to complain that the flat was very cold this past winter and asked, were the radiators "big enough" for the room sizes. I took the heating installation engineer with me and he showed him the chart with the sizes per room/size of radiators required and that everything was in accordance with the project accepted by the building regulations. This satisfied the client but not me. He had a problem and it was my responsibility. I had the engineer install larger radiators in the rooms where there was a problem, at my cost. (not really a cost to me as I will use these radiators and fittings on another project)

Anyway, the client is happy, I am happy. I had a successful company in the UK and we have a very good reputation. Although I am only "dabbling" here in Poland, I will carry on with the same high standards in my adopted country. Not all builders/developers are the same. People only need to carry out a few simple checks first.

Caveat Emptor seems to be the applicable phrase here.

Totally agree.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
8 May 2012 #58
@Jimmu, thanks for the warning.

@Avalon, the flats (of friends) that I visit and the one I am in - they are warm on cold days even with the heating radiators barely warm or off. The buildings I guess have some sort of external flank insulation behind a fascia board with polystyrene or rockwool, I am guessing.

In the UK, all the flats I go to there are cold once the rads are switched off, probably within minutes.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
8 May 2012 #59
I am guessing.
In the UK, all the flats I go to there are cold once the rads are switched off, probably within minutes.

Planning and building regulations in the UK require good thermal insulation (BTU's). There are minimum standards to be met before building approval will be given. During working progress, an inspector from the local council will inspect the works as they proceed, insulation is one of their priorities. In Poland, the developer has to employ a registered building manager who has to have a "magic stamp" and will agree to anything as long as you pay him. I personally take photographs of every aspect of the works, at least every three days. This gives me a record to show exactly how the project was built and what materials were used and if they were used properly. I also apply regulations from the UK which are not normally used in Poland ie: 1200g polythene membrane underneath the ground floor slab to eliminate any possible rising ground moisture/Radon gas penetration, building blocks up to the underside of the roof (inside the loft) to stop fire travelling through the roof space to adjoining flats or properties, trickle vents to all external windows and doors to stop condensation, etc. People here tell me its not needed but I feel happier knowing its there and safety for me is very important.

I think you will find that your friends flats in the UK are always cold except when it is very hot (about two weeks every year). The constant rain and damp keeps the outside temperatures very low and how often does the UK get -30 temperatures?. The insulation requirements in the UK are much less than Poland. Look at last week 9-15 C in the UK, 30 + C here. My sister is visiting me for a week to get away from the rain. She arrives tomorrow and the forecast for the next week is sunshine every day.

In 2001, it rained in Bristol continuously for a record 126 days, I was so depressed I flew to Barcelona and bought a flat so I could go there at weekends just to be able to see the sun. I hate rain more than any other type of weather.
milky 13 | 1,657
8 May 2012 #60
I hate rain more than any other type of weather.

I'll second that. It's a big reason to leave Ireland according to a lot of people


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