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Stan deweloperski vs stan surowy [developing or undeveloping property state]


Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #1
I've been looking on the internet for some property to buy in Dolnoslaskie.

Can anyone tell me the difference in level of finish of a home between stan deweloperski and stan surowy. Are there any other "stans"?

Maybe interesting for other people who are looking for some property as well.

Thanks for your information.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
13 May 2011 #2
if I m correct- stan deweloperski is to be finished, stan surowy you have to finish yourself.
poland_
13 May 2011 #3
stan deweloperski and stan surowy. Are there any other "stans"?

also,stan surowy zamkniety.

They all mean different things to different developers, basically all three mean you have to finish off the inside yourself.
Midas 1 | 571
13 May 2011 #4
Deweloperski vs surowy - while You were given the answer, please double check what Your local, Polish developer means by "deweloperski" so You don't get a nasty surprise at the end of the whole process.
OP Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #5
basically all three mean you have to finish the inside off yourself.

But there is a difference if I need to for example plaster the walls or put in some door or if I need to put a whole heating system in. The first I wouldn't mind, the second wouldn't exactly be on my list of preferences ... .

Your local, Polish developer means by "deweloperski" so You don't get a nasty surprise at the end of the whole process.

Ahh, so different developers have different definitions?
poland_
13 May 2011 #6
I need to put a whole heating system in

Stu, heating systems are normally included, unless you are dealing with a small single house developer. There is so much available out there on the market, it may be wiser to buy a house that is finished off and do some minor alterations. Dealing with Polish builders in PL to finish off your house, is an acquired art form. You will need to visit the project most days and double check that the work is being done correctly, spend a lot of time buying the building materials, it is very time consuming and I speak from experience.
OP Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #7
There is so much available out there on the market, it may be wiser to buy a house that is finished off and do some minor alterations.

That is really valuable advice. Thank you, warszawski. I appreciate it.
Midas 1 | 571
13 May 2011 #8
Ahh, so different developers have different definitions?

How do I put it mildly so some people don't get offended...

There are "developers" out there in Poland that will try to **** You on Your hard-bought flat/house numerous times, "stan deweloperski" included.

Just make sure that what precisely constitutes "stan deweloperski" is somewhere in written form ( like in Your contract ).
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
13 May 2011 #9
Although it is true that these standards do depend, I will attempt to give you the break down:

1. Stan surowy otwarty:

Is just the foundations, walls and roof.

There is no: plumbing, the walls aren't plastered, there is no wiring, the concrete floor with insulation will need to be poured, no windows, no front door or garage door, no taps, no internal doors.

stan surowy zamkniety:

Is the same as stan surowy otwarty but with external doors and windows.

My advice is do not buy this Stu, it costs a lot to finish it from this stage.
if you knew what you were doing it would take about 5/7 months to finish to a normal standard like in the Netherlands (i.e. any western country).

I have seen two story houses for sale with no stairs!!!

2. Stan deweloperski:

This is with: front door, windows, plumbing pipes installed, electrical wires installed, the place is plastered and may or may not come with interior doors or a boiler. (most cases they come with a boiler but without interior doors but check).

You will have to paint the place, install everything in the kitchen and bathrooms (including taps), tile the place, install lights, interior doors.
This is the standard finish in all excommie countries.

Most properties are sold in this condition, if it's a house you are thinking of, make sure you check for sewage, water and electrical connections have been installed.

This still costs quite a bit and there are some fitout companies but you will have to look over their shoulders everyday to make sure that you get what you want (it is still a good deal of work for you and should take about 2 months).

As I said this is normal in excommie countries, it's good if you have the time but be warned you have to get professionals in to finish it.

3. Pod klucz:

The apartment is finished but without furniture.
It includes a kitchen and all appliances, in the bathroom taps, toilet, bath/shower.
Might not include wardrobes and curtains.

Quite a few developers offer a fitout service but most Poles think they can install one toilet for cheaper than a developer can install 500.
This is what Western countries offer, take a look at their showroom )if they have one) they should offer a few options and you should be able to negotiate more if you get the house to this standard.

This is what you want, have a good contract clearly stating the time when they will be finished and include some sort of penalty fee for lateness (they are always late but if it gets too much then sue or have the option of suing and renegotiate your price).

Where are you thinking of buying?
OP Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #10
Where are you thinking of buying?

Thanks SeanBM, for this rundown. Very interesting indeed. I think this "surowy-state" is out of the question. We simply don't have the time (or the experience) to handle all the aspects of finishing a house. Maybe next time.

We are looking for something around Wroclaw. We've seen some nice properties in Długołęka and Oleśnica, but yesterday we fell in love with a kind of (almost finished) B&B annex beergarden in Sobótka.

It's still early days and at the moment we are not in PL, as I am still packing all my stuff. The fact that we are still in the Netherlands makes it difficult because I can't have a look at the property or the surroundings. A house can look great in pictures, but if it turns out there is some car body shop next door, my hope of peace and quiet might be in serious jeopardy.

On the 29th we will drive to Poland so from that moment on, we can seriously start looking for something.
Wroclaw Boy
13 May 2011 #11
we fell in love with a kind of (almost finished) B&B annex beergarden in Sobótka.

You have the right idea in my opinion looking at those types of areas.

Great post BM by the way.
frd 7 | 1,399
13 May 2011 #12
We are looking for something around Wroclaw. We've seen some nice properties in Długołęka and Oleśnica, but yesterday we fell in love with a kind of (almost finished) B&B annex beergarden in Sobótka.

You probably know about it, but just to remind, remember that some houses might have their prices lowered because of the fact of being places in a flood plain or near river. Taking into consideration recent floods it is good to think about the surrounding land and rivers, especially if you were thinking about house near the Odra river.
OP Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #13
remember that some houses might have their prices lowered because of the fact of being places in a flood plain or near river

Good point, frd. I have noticed some adds where this was specifically stated. So definitely something to keep in mind!

You have the right idea in my opinion looking at those types of areas

Why? Are they that bad?
Wroclaw Boy
13 May 2011 #14
Why? Are they that bad?

i said you have the right idea, im agreeing with you. I know Sobotka fairly well, i lived very near a similar town, my main reservation would be dont expect to many English speaking people in those types of places. In terms of price you should be able to get a lot for your money.
OP Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #15
i said you have the right idea, im agreeing with you

Ahh ... sorry. Misunderstanding. No, it already crossed my mind that I shouldn't expect a lot of people speaking English in these parts. But that's OK ... that way it's even more important for me to learn the lingo asap.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
13 May 2011 #16
The best thing is to presume every deweloper is a positive fraud and they never ever do as they promise. If you are not there 24/24 you will get screwed bigtime.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
13 May 2011 #17
You probably know about it, but just to remind, remember that some houses might have their prices lowered because of the fact of being places in a flood plain or near river. Taking into consideration recent floods it is good to think about the surrounding land and rivers, especially if you were thinking about house near the Odra river.

I'd say that it's absolutely vital in Wroclaw to check this out - the problems that caused the flooding last year still haven't been solved, and this summer is looking to be the same as last summer in terms of warm days and rainy evenings.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
13 May 2011 #18
Dewelopers are building on places where they know it will get flooded again. Good example near Warsaw is £omianki Dolne (names tells for itself). With the last flood they just scraped by, but for how long. But the administration is for me equally guilty, they should never allow to have housing estates built on places like that. Guess the money was more important :)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
13 May 2011 #19
Stan deweloperski is the most common standard which is sold in excommie countries.

I will post photos to show you exactly what Stan deweloperski means.

This is a typical example:

(Admin, the comments are a nice addition to uploading the photos)


  • this is where the toilet and sink go.

  • this is where your kitchen will go.

  • this is the living room.
poland_
13 May 2011 #20
Good example near Warsaw is £omianki Dolne

It was the same all the way down the right bank of the Wisla from Kielpin to Konstancin.
OP Stu 12 | 522
13 May 2011 #21
I will post photos to show you exactly what Stan deweloperski means.

Great SeanBM, thanks a lot.

I can see that also in this case one would have to find the time to keep on top of things to avoid being left with some shoddy workmanship.

But I got a good idea. Thank you!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
13 May 2011 #22
being left with some shoddy workmanship.

That's it exactly.

But I got a good idea.

I am glad, information is power.
Many Westerners come to excommie countries and buy apartments only to be dumbfounded at what they actually get.
I myself am surprised the Stan deweloperski thing has not been done away with altogether.
You basically have to live/rent somewhere else after spending a crap load of your money on a property, it's just wrong for all the right reasons.

Let me know if you have any further questions.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
13 May 2011 #23
I myself am surprised the Stan deweloperski thing has not been done away with altogether.

I can see why - building costs aren't much lower than in Western Europe (I saw one figure recently that suggested for car parks, the actual cost was about 15% cheaper than in Germany) - yet there's no way properties would shift if they were priced at that sort of level.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 May 2011 #24
I can see why - building costs aren't much lower than in Western Europe

I don't understand your point, if the prices are almost the same as in Western Europe i.e. very expensive comparatively, then would it not make sense to get it done the cheapest and best way?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
17 May 2011 #25
Probably for marketing reasons - and also because of the curious Eastern habit of half-finishing properties.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 May 2011 #26
the curious Eastern habit of half-finishing properties.

I have heard a few theories as to why this is in excommie countries but no definitive answer.

For most, your home is the most expensive thing you will ever buy, so you fork out the hundreds of thousands and can't even stay the night in it, you still have to live somewhere else (obviously different on the second hand market).

Any theories as to why?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
17 May 2011 #27
Any theories as to why?

Not a clue - I find it truly bizzare that someone would do this. Or even stranger is the habit of building a house, then living in one room for ages until they have the money to finish the rest of the house.

Of course, if you're a cynic, you might suggest that it's important to tie up the "black" money in property as quickly as possible.
grubas 12 | 1,391
17 May 2011 #28
Or even stranger is the habit of building a house, then living in one room for ages until they have the money to finish the rest of the house.

What's strange about it?Not everyone wants a 30 years mortgage or a bank loan.Simple.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
17 May 2011 #29
What's strange about it?

From a purely aesthetic point of view, it's bloody ugly to see all these half finished houses. What's worse is that local authorities don't actually seem to have the power to tell people "finish it, or we pull it down" like in most countries.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 May 2011 #30
I heard... (and in two words excuse myself for the theory I am about to put forward) that during communism everyone got the same or to be more precise didn't get anything but they all got the same nothing (have you watched alternatywnych cztery?) and people are expected to do it themselves.

Another one is, now that CAPITALISM has arrived people can chose their own styles, to their own tastes and life choices i.e. we all go to Castorama and buy their limited selection.

Maybe the real reason is lost in the mists of time but one thing is certain, people are used to it and defend the idea of buying an unfinished property just because that's the way things have always been.

I always thought that with the slow down in the market, developers would have to finish their projects but that has not happened en mass like I expected.

even stranger is the habit of building a house, then living in one room for ages until they have the money to finish the rest of the house.

I think a large house is a statues symbol and people here work hard and long to do it.
I have seen people here work out how much a house would cost, then work out how much the repayments to the bank are (usually twice what the initial price of the house is) and opt for building their own palace over 20 years.

Maybe we wouldn't be up the financial creek with out a paddle in Ireland and the U.S. if we had thought about things that way?


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