Right now renting in Poland is much.....much much much cheaper than buying. It breaks down to paying 30% of your income to rent, or 70% to buy...
How are Poland's properties priced?
bolek: are you not the same person who was telling us of a property boom in Poland?.
yes, you muppet
plk123: the boom is a bust now.
there you go bolek. do try and concentrate
plk123: i try, i try... thanks bubbawoo. :)
good to hear :)
BubbaWoo: yes, you muppet
it takes one to know one. you have preached so much nonsense, it is time you have come clean and apologized.
convex: As that other poster is saying, a dollar for a house in the states?? is that realistic?
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No, that's idiotic.
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No, that's idiotic.
Actually, I was refering to the information published in the Polish quality daily Rzeczpospolita, which - I'm pretty sure - quoted American sources on that. As I'm not a subscriber to the online version of the paper, I'll pass these American sources to you, as soon as I find my printed copy.
Describing this information as "idiotic" reflects your enormous disbelief in the breadth and depth of the property crisis in the US rather than in the actual facts. Bidding one dollar for a house means that the banker says "this house here is worth nothing to me". Such a price is the "dress code" for the houses whose owners have gone to live under the bridge leaving the houses to the bank as they are no longer able to pay their mortgages for which they were not eligible from the very beginning at all.
Nope, not idiotic......there was a whole district in Detroit were there are dozens of fine detached houses, all empty, slowly decaying, in an area no-one wanted to live.....so I've no doubt the bank, thought it a good way to get publicity to off load a house for $1 just to get in the news etc.......its true value was more.....but the reckon....only worth 10-20K dollars!
Its all about location, location, location......plus in a hugely negative market and over supply.....the buyer is king....called capitalism!
F
Its all about location, location, location......plus in a hugely negative market and over supply.....the buyer is king....called capitalism!
F
Ziemowit: Describing this information as "idiotic" reflects your enormous disbelief in the breadth and depth of the property crisis in the US rather than in the actual facts.
It's not realistic. Bidding a dollar for a house, and receiving a house with no liens against it, that's not happening.
That is, well, idiotic. I have crisp $100 bill in my wallet right now, I wouldn't mind being a slum lord in Columbus.
I'll even pay for the removal of the house and sit on the lot for the next 75 years.
Ziemowit
"Bidding one dollar for a house means that the banker says "this house here is worth nothing to me"
"Bidding one dollar for a house means that the banker says "this house here is worth nothing to me"
No. What the banker is saying is that "why should I pay security guards to look after the house, pay city/state land taxes, renovate the house before I can sell it, when all I have to do is write it off as a bad debt and claim tax relief/TARP funds and get my money back from the taxpayer"
salaries are expected to be stagnant for a good while to come.
Are they? I haven't read that, salaries have been rising slowly but quite steadily for the past four years or so.
Alright, according to your link, in Wroclaw it's 51 m2 for 306,000, seems about right (we won't even add in the 7% tax, or fees).
I believe it also takes into account that both parents work.
foreign buyers and of course a limited amount of Poles returning and cashed up
Poles sending money back to Poland has had a much greater effect than foreigners buying residential property here.
In the last five years, Polish immigrants gained 125 billion euro and transferred almost 21 billion euro to Poland.
Greedy land lords are no greedier in Poland than any where else in the world.
True and one of the contributing factors for relative stability here in Poland i.e. not a crash and recession. Is due to the banks not lending money like they were in Ireland (for example).
The stories of how the banks were throwing mortgages at people in Ireland to buy property because it was assumed that if they bought property they were investing and it would only go up in value, further inflating the bubble.
I used to criticise how inflexible the banks are here, now I see how it helped the country.
Here the banks now throw small loans at people. I am not an economist but I think this is good for the economy, if people have money they spend , circulating the money. I am not suggesting this is why the banks are doing it but I think it is a side effect of the bank's policies.
And just on a side note, there is a phenomenal amount of road works here in Krakow, and around the country, at the moment. E.U. funds being used and employing thousands of people.
It breaks down to paying 30% of your income to rent, or 70% to buy...
Are you comparing renting and buying the same place?
It is cheaper to rent but not close to that much, based on a flat in the centre of Krakow.
I have crisp $100 bill in my wallet right now, I wouldn't mind being a slum lord in Columbus.
How much rent will you charge? :X
SeanBM: Are they? I haven't read that, salaries have been rising slowly but quite steadily for the past four years or so.
They have, the forecast is now for them to be stagnant, which makes sense considering the zloty is appreciating.
SeanBM: I believe it also takes into account that both parents work.
And not stay at home with the kid? :)
SeanBM: Are you comparing renting and buying the same place?
It is cheaper to rent but not close to that much, based on a flat in the centre of Krakow.
It is cheaper to rent but not close to that much, based on a flat in the centre of Krakow.
Yea, same place. The mortgage and insurance on my place would be 3x the rent.
SeanBM: How much rent will you charge? :X
depends on how many weeks you're planning on staying.
Seanny is right here, the GUS stats bear that out. Salaries have been steadily increasing but seemingly not in line with inflation. Poland was decidedly a cheaper place to live 5 or so years ago.
Properties are horribly priced for the most part, I have to say. Some dingy places for 160k. I am accustomed to small places for a fair bit of expense, though.
Renting is typically 20% in my experience, both in Japan and here in Poland.
Properties are horribly priced for the most part, I have to say. Some dingy places for 160k. I am accustomed to small places for a fair bit of expense, though.
Renting is typically 20% in my experience, both in Japan and here in Poland.
convex: They have, the forecast is now for them to be stagnant, which makes sense considering the zloty is appreciating.
Ah, I know where you are coming from.
convex: And not stay at home with the kid? :)
No, it is a failing of making numbers out of people.
convex: Yea, same place. The mortgage and insurance on my place would be 3x the rent.
What return are you talking about?
convex: depends on how many weeks you're planning on staying.
:)
Seanus: Properties are horribly priced for the most part, I have to say. Some dingy places for 160k.
Are you talking in Euros?
i presume prices are based on supply on demand. ideally if you are investing it should be city centre where supply cannot be altered that much. for example in cracow while there has been some supply provision witihn the cental city, on the whole supply is restricted, leading to substantial overdevelopment in the suburbs. so while prices have like elsewhere fallen in the suburbs, cracow centre has only fallen marginally. rental prices should in theory be the same but a lot of flat/apt purchases have been by scandanavians/irish/uk people which means that these are probably depressing rental values a little as they are buy to let.
i think a major factor in cracow is the huge amount of underdeveloped apartments/lot spaces etc that have not been developed as it requires unaminous approval by all the owners to develop them. IF the polish government were to introduce penalties so as to encourage development of these vacant spaces, it would provide substantial housing for local people and keep local people living locally. it could easily be implemented and also perhaps provide a good revenue source for local government. it makes no sense to have huge undeveloped attic spaces sitting idle while valuable green space is being eaten up for developments.
i think a major factor in cracow is the huge amount of underdeveloped apartments/lot spaces etc that have not been developed as it requires unaminous approval by all the owners to develop them. IF the polish government were to introduce penalties so as to encourage development of these vacant spaces, it would provide substantial housing for local people and keep local people living locally. it could easily be implemented and also perhaps provide a good revenue source for local government. it makes no sense to have huge undeveloped attic spaces sitting idle while valuable green space is being eaten up for developments.
mulsie
I agree with most of your post but if development in smaller towns and rural areas is not carried out it will lead to many of the younger workers moving to the larger cities, thus exasperating the problem.
I agree with most of your post but if development in smaller towns and rural areas is not carried out it will lead to many of the younger workers moving to the larger cities, thus exasperating the problem.
Fair points mulsie,
How are Polish properties priced?
Another factor worth mentioning is how much rental return you can get on a property.
Will it pay the mortgage? Rents have dropped a bit since the credit crunch not making the market as attractive as it was, depending on when you bought.
How are Polish properties priced?
Another factor worth mentioning is how much rental return you can get on a property.
Will it pay the mortgage? Rents have dropped a bit since the credit crunch not making the market as attractive as it was, depending on when you bought.
Krakow 4,09% February 2010
No, in PLN. Some of the flats I see for 160-200k are not worth that.
hi, some interesting replies to my earlier comments.
one recent television report indicated how rural to urban migration is set to continue substantially in poland. this will increase pressure on city centres prices.
although some polish migrants have left ireland/uk, the bulk remain. i am surprised that polish people overseas are not investing more in polish property. polish demographics are still very healthy. plus if overseas migrants were to return with "ready" capital it should lead to further growth.
polish prices are inflated by polish standards but you have to remember that polish prices (for general living i.e restaurants, pubs, services) are one quarter generally of that of ireland, the uk, france.) spain 15 years ago was like poland. now it is more expensive than ireland in many things. same applies to portugal and greece. incomes haven't necessarily risen in these countries,particularly in portugal. the same will happen in poland as it is within one common market. i am not sure what the inflation rate is at the moment, i am guessing perhaps 4%, only a guess, but in western europe it is deflation.
i cannot say if i think polish prices are good value at the moment but what i can say is that huge potential exists for the polish economy. you only have to look at how little franchise shops there are in comparison with the rest of europe. there is huge openings for massive retail/culture/tourism developments. the same cannot be said for western europe. particularly spain/ireland/uk which has reached over development on the whole.
one recent television report indicated how rural to urban migration is set to continue substantially in poland. this will increase pressure on city centres prices.
although some polish migrants have left ireland/uk, the bulk remain. i am surprised that polish people overseas are not investing more in polish property. polish demographics are still very healthy. plus if overseas migrants were to return with "ready" capital it should lead to further growth.
polish prices are inflated by polish standards but you have to remember that polish prices (for general living i.e restaurants, pubs, services) are one quarter generally of that of ireland, the uk, france.) spain 15 years ago was like poland. now it is more expensive than ireland in many things. same applies to portugal and greece. incomes haven't necessarily risen in these countries,particularly in portugal. the same will happen in poland as it is within one common market. i am not sure what the inflation rate is at the moment, i am guessing perhaps 4%, only a guess, but in western europe it is deflation.
i cannot say if i think polish prices are good value at the moment but what i can say is that huge potential exists for the polish economy. you only have to look at how little franchise shops there are in comparison with the rest of europe. there is huge openings for massive retail/culture/tourism developments. the same cannot be said for western europe. particularly spain/ireland/uk which has reached over development on the whole.
bolek you silly little polish fukwit, you never did know anything about the polish property market and you never will
i made good money from flipping in poland for a number of years and this forum served a purpose. i still have property there that was bought way below market value as a long term investment - it was obvious the market was going titsup and i moved on sometime ago. duh
i now live in in a tropical climate where the beer is cheap, the weather hot and the women easy - ask admin where im posting from as i know you dont believe me
you are, and always have been, just another polish plonker. give up, you will never amount to anything
i made good money from flipping in poland for a number of years and this forum served a purpose. i still have property there that was bought way below market value as a long term investment - it was obvious the market was going titsup and i moved on sometime ago. duh
i now live in in a tropical climate where the beer is cheap, the weather hot and the women easy - ask admin where im posting from as i know you dont believe me
you are, and always have been, just another polish plonker. give up, you will never amount to anything
No, in PLN. Some of the flats I see for 160-200k are not worth that.
My flats are priced at 2,900 - 3,500 PLN m2. They are not in Krakow. They are at the moment an hours drive from Krakow. The new motorway will be a 2 minute drive away (completion 2011) and then the journey will take about 30 mins. There is a communial garden, external storage sheds for bikes/skis, 2 parking spaces for each flat, all fenced in with remote contol gates and security lighting.
Try getting that in Krakow.
What the fcuk do I know about pricing in Poland, I'm just a rip of developer, according to Mark Biernat.
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Wow, that's pretty darned cheap. 180,000PLN potentially for 60m2 is not bad, especially given the area and how attractive they look.
2013 and 2014 will be a year of reckoning for the polish real estate market. There is a huge supply overhang of new prpoerties with the developers continuing to build or go bust and slowing demand as wage growth is below inflation, consumer putting serious brakes on consumption, loans are harder to come by, government support schemes winding down and unemployment increasing. I can't see how prices can maintain these ridiculous levels. If you want an honest reasonably honest opinion on the state economy look at BRE bank monthly reviews. It is quite sobering unlike the "reassuring" stuff you hear from politicians and the real estate developers.
. I can't see how prices can maintain these ridiculous levels.
I think the 7-8 billion $ in remittance each year will explain why their is such a "slow" deflation,but a definite on at the same time, and it is seriously speeding up in many s cities such as Poznan and Wroclaw.