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Real Estate Lawyer costs in Poland


lonpol 4 | 16    
11 Apr 2018  #1
Hello, as per a previous thread I am looking to buy a house just outside of Warsaw. I need a decent Lawyer to do the due diligence before contracts are signed. What kind of price would I expect to pay for that? Ive had 2 quotes so far and both are more expensive than a top London real estate lawyer :)

Yes I know you can do it without a Lawyer, but im pretty sure that would be a bad idea - I need someone acting in my interest who knows what issues to look for.

Cheers
Jozef

Can someone please provide me with an english speaking Lawyer who does real estate due dilligence in Warsaw who is not going to rip me off because I cannot speak Polish?

So far I have been quoted twice the cost of what I paid in London! ( and that was a complex case and was a top lawyer and the house cost 4x as much)

Feeling pretty let down :(
cms neuf - | 274    
11 Apr 2018  #2
Best to just use Chambers.
What are you buying ? A big deal or a single house ?

Unfortunately with Warsaw lawyers its supply and demand and english speakers might give you a high quote for small jobs because they have plenty of other stuff on.
OP lonpol 4 | 16    
11 Apr 2018  #3
What is chambers, the notary?

Its a house but a BIG deal to me and a lot of my money.

From what I understand the notary does a pretty basic task does no due diligence. I need someone acting in my interests alone covering my ass.

Im ok with paying a premium but honestly some of these guys are trying to rip folk off.
cms neuf - | 274    
11 Apr 2018  #4
chambersandpartners.com/guide/europe/7

A guide to help you find a lawyer in different fields.
OP lonpol 4 | 16    
11 Apr 2018  #5
Thanks but it seems the guys on Chambers are the big boys who are making money from big international investors. Ive had some luck searching on google maps for "prawnik" who seem more geared up for your average local. Going to get a Polish speaker to get me some estimates this time so they dont immediately see dollar signs...
terri 1 | 1,385    
11 Apr 2018  #6
You need to make sure that the seller is the real owner of the property. If buying direct from a developer, make sure they have all their ducks in a row.
OP lonpol 4 | 16    
11 Apr 2018  #7
Terri yes thanks that was one of my concerns, I need someone who knows what they are doing to make sure everyone involved is real agent/notary/seller.

Update ive had some luck, seems that the prices are a lot cheaper for lawyers to do various checks when you ask in Polish :)
cms neuf - | 274    
11 Apr 2018  #8
Ok fair enough, prices for those guys start around 300 zloty an hour so ot depends on your budget- but you are unlikeky to get an english language opinion from a local lawyer.

As well as ownership really check the easements on an old property - these are often in a chaotic state in Poland at the monent and can cause years of grief
OP lonpol 4 | 16    
11 Apr 2018  #9
Well the annoying thing is I found a 300 zloty guy who spoke English and was quite happy thinking that he might spend 10 hours on the case. His estimate for full cost meant that he thought he would need 63 hours on the case. I will be returning to that particular incident when I have some spare time ;)

re easements - thanks for the heads up, the house/land I want looks pretty simple.
Atch 14 | 2,232    
12 Apr 2018  #10
make sure everyone involved is real agent/notary/seller.

I can vouch that this one is real:

notariusze.waw.pl/kancelaria-notarialna/kancelaria,kancelaria-notarialna-tomasz-babka

63 hours?? Balls to that. I never heard such nonsense.

Are you buying from a developer or a private owner?

It's a very basic, straightforward process in Poland. If it's a private owner, they should have a little scrap of paper which confirms their ownership. It has a reference number on it relating to the entry in the registration book. Trot along to the Land Registry which is located in the local court, inspect it and confirm that they're the owner. Any member of the public can do that. It'll also give details of any mortgage as far as I remember.

Ask to see up to date bills for utilities, property tax etc so you know there's nothing outstanding.

The main problem is that you can't be sure if the seller's ID is genuine but a lawyer won't do that anyway so it's just a chance you take.

Oh and you should check at the Urząd Gminy to confirm if anybody is registered as living at that address. You don't want that.

That's about it really. The Notary does sod all. They're just there to make the transaction legal by witnessing it. However he can confirm for you which checks you need to make

As a foreigner, you'll also need a sworn translator for the actual signing of the documents, even if you speak Polish. After the signing you'll get a copy of the contract and the Notary keeps the original. A few weeks (or months!) later the Land Registry will send you the little bit of paper to confirm the change of ownership has been recorded.
cms neuf - | 274    
12 Apr 2018  #11
Given that its Milanowek i would make triple sure there are no restitution claims from pre war - it was the playground of Warsaws rich in those days so precisely the kind of town affected. You only need to google the number of ambulance chasers involved in this business now to see its still a live issue.

If you are British then also consider your property rights after Brexit - no deal done yet and a worst case but very possible scenario is that Brits end up lumped with all othet non EU foreigners needing permission to own land (if its just a flat then no problem)
OP lonpol 4 | 16    
12 Apr 2018  #12
notariusze.waw.pl/kancelaria-notarialna/kancelaria,kancelaria-notarialna-tomasz-babka

Thanks, a useful website.

Buying from a private seller through an agent.

We are in London so not that easy to run around checking public registers etc, I would rather pay someone to do that.

The seller is currently living at the address which is a reasonable thing, surely she would show as registered to live there?

Would it not be the job of the Notary to confirm he has the real person in front of him?

restitution claims from pre war

Will try and get someone to check for restitution claims.

Re brexit - I am dual Polish/British - learning Polish.
terri 1 | 1,385    
12 Apr 2018  #13
The main thing for the Notary is to see an ID/passport of the person selling the property. This should be the same name as should be shown in the Ksiega Wieczysta (Register). In the Ksiega Wieczysta, you can see if there are any debts or a mortgage on the property.

Remember - you are buying the property AS SEEN. It is up to you to ensure that the roof, loft, cellar, electrics, gas installations, water connections, drains are in good working order as you do not have any comeback on the seller afterwards.
OP lonpol 4 | 16    
12 Apr 2018  #14
Ok yeah, im not worried about about roof etc thats all fixable. Just worried about "oh it seems there is a problem which means you you dont own the property and all your money has vanished" kinda problems.

Sounds like first and foremost is a check against the register.
terri 1 | 1,385    
12 Apr 2018  #15
Register as a first port of all then evidence that they have paid all their bills. Also ask about czynsz for water, rubbish removal, fees for building maintenance or anything else that they have to pay.
Atch 14 | 2,232    
13 Apr 2018  #16
It's a house Terri, so there won't be any czynsz. Don't alarm the poor guy even further!
polishinvestor 1 | 358    
13 Apr 2018  #17
For a private property or house where cash and no loans are involved, there is no need for a survey and most folks don't bother. Even if you do ask for a survey (around 1000zl) dont expect them to measure the walls with moisture meters. Surveys in Poland tend to be very basic and if you want proper structural surveys done, its best to buy the kit which isnt too expensive and do it yourself. It will of course be useful in the future so well worth it. For structural surveys you will need an architect if this area is foreign to you.

As for the notariusz its pretty easy to check online. You can take a lawyer with you to the notariusz but usually you can ask for a draft copy of the akt that will be read out by the notariusz and you can take this to a lawyer before you go to the notariusz to sign. That way the lawyer can make suggestions to change the text in certain areas or include other clauses. He will also be able to alert you to any clauses that will be carried over from the present akt (deed). I always ask for copies of the present akt. People dont always want to show it but they can always blot out the price and pass it on as it would be demanded by a bank if a loan was required so you can really insist on it. As for payment, the safest way is to deposit the funds with the notariusz a day earlier, sign the protocol for this which confirms the transaction, then go to sign for the house. The notariusz will then transfer the money to the seller after the akt is signed.

Another thing you need to do is get a document from the seller confirming that nobody is registered at the address at the local council. This document is usually handed out on request. That way you wont have any nasty surprises as to who is allowed to live at the house besides yourself.
jgrabner 1 | 51    
13 Apr 2018  #18
checking public registers

thankfully that can be done for free on the Internet: przegladarka-ekw.ms.gov.pl/eukw_prz/KsiegiWieczyste/wyszukiwanieKW?komunikaty=true&kontakt=true&okienkoSerwisowe=false - you would need the land register number (numer księgi wieczystej) in the new format. If they have only the old number, you can generate the new format here: zylla.wipos.p.lodz.pl/ut/kw-serial-gen.php - after you found the court district code (kod sądu) from the address here: ksiegiwieczyste.pl/PoAdresie.html (really useful for w-wa, because this city is divided into several court districts). I use the last site only for giving me the 4-digit kod sądu, don't need to pay for the full service.



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