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Cousin stole my dads home in Poland...


Konman123
2 Aug 2012  #1
Hello,
so my grandmother had written a will in 1990 to my uncle, but he died in 1996, then she wrote a new will leaving her house to his son, but then he died in 1997, she then wrote a new will leaving her house to my dad, but in 1999 (the same year she moved to an old folks home) my dads cousin somehow convinced her to write a new will leaving the home to her (without telling my dad) but in the document she states shes changing her will from 1990. she had forgotten about the 2 wills she had written since then. then in 2004, my dads cousins husband got my grandmother to change the ownership of the home to his name... my grandmother passed away in 2006 and he had my dad formally removed from all legal rights to live in the home; without telling us again. then in 2011 they sold the home. now in Poland you have 5years to contest a will, but since my grandmother was mentally ill we're in the process of getting her medical files to contest this in court 6years later.

we're not seeking any cash, we want the ownership of the home. it's in downtown warsaw, on emili plater, across from the palace of culture.

what do you polaks think???
if the medical files say she was mentally ill, do you think i'll win in court?
do you think we can get the house back even though it was sold?
I mean... if someone steals your car and sells it... and you find the car, you get the car back. why wouldn't that apply to a house?

please don't bicker between each other about typo's, just give your opinion on the case i've asked.

Thank you,

one very pissed off Canadian Polak.
jasondmzk
2 Aug 2012  #2
what do you polaks think?

I think they prefer "Poles".

if the medical files say she was mentally ill, do you think i'll win in court?

A probate judge is gonna void every will except for the one you want him/her to acknowledge? Doubtful.

do you think we can get the house back even though it was sold?
I mean... if someone steals your car and sells it... and you find the car, you get the car back. why wouldn't that apply to a house?

Absolutely not. Real property (real estate) is not like a car, and a deed in the hand is a series of binding legal documents, replete with what they call "a bundle of rights", not easily undone. The most you could hope for is a judgement against whomever profited from the sale of the property.

Probate courts are slow as molasses in Poland, and they don't bend over backwards for claims filed out of State. Were I you, I'd move on, frame a picture of gramma, and honor her name, respectfully.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,675
2 Aug 2012  #3
we want the ownership of the home

Given that you're in Canada and seemingly have had very little to do with the woman, I don't think you deserve a thing.

Anyway, if you want it back, then you need a very good Polish lawyer. It's going to cost you a lot of money and time, however.
terri 1 | 1,624
2 Aug 2012  #4
You don't have cat in hell chance of getting anything.
You could try a lawyer in Poland, but he will tell you the same thing.
You would have to dispute the will and ownership of a house which has been someone else's property for the lat 8 years.
Good luck - but no chance.
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #5
I don't think you deserve a thing.Anyway, if you want it back, then you need a very good Polish lawyer. It's going to cost you a lot of money and time, however

The location of the house is heart of Warsaw centre..I would fight tooth and nail for that money thats worth probably over 10/15 mil PLN...and as per court cases if he has the money I suggest fight and complicate the case as much as you can until the other party gets tired and tries to reach an settlement..which mostly they do including big companies and then settle!but worth fighting for and spending money on lawyers will be expensive but Hey it was suppose to be yours,get something atleast out of it.

(He mentioned house so my opinions was for house not for an apartment if he meant that,because apartment would not be worth it)
inkrakow 1 | 98
2 Aug 2012  #6
Wills in Poland (codified system) don't carry the same weight as they do in an Anglo-Saxon (based on common law) system. If they've sold the property I think the chances of getting it back are practically nil but you really should get a Polish lawyer to look into the possibility of a zachówek - sounds like your Dad's entitled to 50% of what he'd have got anyway + interest.
Lenka 3 | 1,551
2 Aug 2012  #7
In my opinion there is no chance you're going to win.First of all-you're too late.It doesn't mean anything that she was mentally ill-you had your chance but you didn't fail the complaint.Second-I'm not sure about the ownership part-if she signed it off to your cousin's husband while she was alive I'm not sure if it's part of the heritage.And third-it's obvious you didn't have real relationship with her.Your dad's cousin can state that she took care of her and you're just a jackhal.
Harry
2 Aug 2012  #8
it's in downtown warsaw, on emili plater, across from the palace of culture.

That is a very very lame attempt at trolling. There are no houses anywhere on Emilii Plater. Apartment building yes, house no. Next time consult google maps before trolling.
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #9
I was thinking same,where the house could be?
eberhart 13 | 120
2 Aug 2012  #10
People sometimes call flats their "house" here. It could be a simple miscommunication or poor choice of word.
Konman123 - | 3
3 Aug 2012  #11
actually in Polish, it's "Polak and Polka" masc and fem.

1) actually in Polish, it's "Polak and Polka" masc and fem.
2) and yes it's an apartment, relax yourself buddy.
3) I actually saw my grandmother every single summer until i was 14 years old. (1989-2004).
4) we have not surpassed the statute of limitations because, if a person has been conned and manipulated while mentally ill, a 10-20 year limit in given.

5) we have contacted 3 lawyers so far, all recommended by the Canadian Embassy in Poland, and have been told the same thing from all 3, first we need the medical files.

6) you are not allowed to sign over you're home when you have alzheimer's. (which is what my grandmother suffered from, after the death of my uncle and his son (1996&1997) she fell into depression, then got Hep C at the hospital, and from 1999-2004 she had no idea who I or my father are.

7) my fathers cousin (letka) did infact claim that she "took care" of my grandmother, which is false, she only assisted in getting her into an old folks home by our request.

8) in the paperwork where she signed over the house to letkas husband, they stated they had no idea where my father was, which is false.

9) someone posted a comment about my residency, Poland has ruled that, claims to ownership cannot be denied based on residency; I assume because so many have left the country.

most importantly here, i noticed a lot of you are simply giving your opinions, and not basing them on any previous cases. you put "law" as an interest, i can see why it's only an "interest" and not an occupation.

if you are going to comment, PLEASE provide proof of your of your statement.

sincerely,
one pissed off polak.
jon357 63 | 14,134
3 Aug 2012  #12
The location of the house is heart of Warsaw centre..I would fight tooth and nail for that money thats worth probably over 10/15 mil PLN

The OP says home rather than house and "across from the Palace of Culture" which suggests a fairly modest flat.

I think it would be very very difficult to do anything at this late stage and expensive in terms of legal bills. The OP should be aware that court cases in Poland tend to drag on for years, often with very little effect except making lawyers rich. I'm personally aware of two wills that were challenged. In one case the parties concerned agreed to set it aside to avoid going through a long and expensive legal process: in the other case the will was written so unambiguously and professionally that there was nothing the aggrieved parties could do.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,675
3 Aug 2012  #13
1) actually in Polish, it's "Polak and Polka" masc and fem.

And in English, we don't use such slurs, unless referring to the dumb Polonia of North America.

3) I actually saw my grandmother every single summer until i was 14 years old. (1989-2004).

Your father didn't bother to actually be with a dying woman though, did he?

5) we have contacted 3 lawyers so far, all recommended by the Canadian Embassy in Poland, and have been told the same thing from all 3, first we need the medical files.

So why are you posting on here? We're not lawyers, and we tend to look down on people who run away abroad only to return with their hands out.

and from 1999-2004 she had no idea who I or my father are.

Tends to happen when you only visit for a short time.

someone posted a comment about my residency, Poland has ruled that, claims to ownership cannot be denied based on residency

Doesn't matter what was previously ruled, Poland tends to pay little to no attention to this sort of thing.

If you want the money like a greedy Polak, go ahead and get the best lawyer money can buy. You'll need it - the legal system in Poland is a minefield, and if three different lawyers have told you that you need the medical files - go ahead and get them.

Anyway, I suspect it's the same old story. The flat wasn't worth much when Grandmother was alive, but in Warsaw in 2011, the flat is worth a hell of a lot more. Grasp grasp grasp.
MoOli 9 | 484
3 Aug 2012  #14
People sometimes call flats their "house" here. It could be a simple miscommunication or poor choice of word.

I think you are right cuz lately a girl asked me that she likes "desk of meat" in a restaurant in old town that confused me for a while but then I learnt that its pronounced as deska of meat(or something in polish) and she just transformed the word in english.
Konman123 - | 3
3 Aug 2012  #15
And in English, we don't use such slurs, unless referring to the dumb Polonia of North America.

i have no idea what part of north america you're from then, because in Toronto we always use polak, it's a polish word... how can it be offensive...

as i said in my original post, i dont want any money, i want the apartment itself, for my children and my children's children ect.

and actually 'buddy' poland has such a large population living outside of the country, that these cases are extremely common, goolgle lawyers in poland on google.ca, the first 10 pages will be lawyers dealing with last wills and testaments, its the SECOND most popular case seen in the polish courts today.

you shuold reread the original post, and answer the questions asked with evidence supporting your statements, not giving your opinion on the object.

honestly, your response'

delphiandomine

just makes me think the right wing is totally right, the mass' can't lead themselves because they're actually incompetent.
grubas 12 | 1,391
3 Aug 2012  #16
i have no idea what part of north america you're from then, because in Toronto we always use polak,

It may surprise you but North America is not only Toronto and in the US,which is also located in North America and is a much bigger place than Toronto "Polak/Polack" is a derogatory term for Polish person so be carefull using it when talking to Polish people living in the US.
Lenka 3 | 1,551
3 Aug 2012  #17
Ok,I have one more question-why didn't you go to the court earlier?You had many years to do that.Have you even know your grandmother died?Because sorry if I offend you,but it looks like you didn't even call her once in a while...
teflcat 5 | 1,032
3 Aug 2012  #18
ect

This alone should disqualify you.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,675
4 Aug 2012  #19
i have no idea what part of north america you're from then, because in Toronto we always use polak, it's a polish word... how can it be offensive...

Quite easily. I've offended numerous people on this forum by using it.

as i said in my original post, i dont want any money, i want the apartment itself, for my children and my children's children ect.

Then why are you posting on here? You've had advice from three separate lawyers who have told you the same thing.

Anyway, the apartment has changed hands twice. It's going to be exceptionally difficult to get back in these circumstances, especially if the sale was conducted properly between your relative and the new owners.

and actually 'buddy' poland has such a large population living outside of the country, that these cases are extremely common, goolgle lawyers in poland on google.ca, the first 10 pages will be lawyers dealing with last wills and testaments, its the SECOND most popular case seen in the polish courts today.

And if you knew a damn thing about Poland, you'd know that the legal system will tie you up for years and years over this. Then again, how can I expect you to know anything when you've only discovered an interest in Poland when money is mentioned?

just makes me think the right wing is totally right, the mass' can't lead themselves because they're actually incompetent.

Incompetent? Incompetent is those who abandon their elderly mother to nursing homes in Poland while living the life of Riley in Canada.

Sorry pal, but you're not going to get any sympathy on here. We see people like you all the time - they have no interest in Poland, but suddenly they discover an interest when they realise that there's quite a lot of cash (potentially) on the table.

Ok,I have one more question-why didn't you go to the court earlier?You had many years to do that.Have you even know your grandmother died?Because sorry if I offend you,but it looks like you didn't even call her once in a while...

I do wonder why they didn't follow the correct procedures once she died. Could it be that someone's told them that the flat sold for a considerable amount of money - and now, and only now, they're showing an interest?

I'd also be curious to see how they "removed the fathers rights" to the flat.
pantsless 1 | 267
4 Aug 2012  #20
you shuold reread the original post, and answer the questions asked with evidence supporting your statements, not giving your opinion on the object.

Yea ha, yo Im's a Polak like you's dog, let me join on up these internet forums and DEMAND that people spend their time in helping me out with my massive legal problems, then berate them for not being licensed practitioners in law, real estate and medicine and give me free advice while providing a bibliographic reference for everything they say.. Oh, forgive the fact that me and family were all f you granny, you and your Polak smelly bigos and cabbage (yo, but I visited my grandma' every year when I was like 10-15 years old yo yo, but thens I said granny too old for me, Poland old and not funky). But nows we learned in de Canada that Poland is expensive and that ol' granny's apartment be worth MAD money. Yo yo! We idiots for shttin on ol grannys, know we gonna fight about her apartment even thought its been twemy years and so, so me and my kids and they kids can all like live in Poland and sht. I dont have to work for life dog.

Look konman or conman or whatever, I've heard you're sob story a dozen times before from second and third generation Poles who suddenly had a few brain cells turn over when they found out property is now worth a ton of money in Poland and that grandma and grandpa and cousin Zbyszek all have apartments in the Krakow's Rynek, only to find out someone decades before them got their hands on it since uh, they were like next to these people when they were dying (hey, but you ASKED cousin Tomek to help her move to that old folks home man, ain't that worth a few cool million?). The answer is real easy, you have no chance in hell at getting anything. None zero. You are literally the twentieth second-gen or third-gen Pole I've met that has had the same exact story, "woe is me we were supposed to get this huge house in a will but someone taking care of her like conned ol' granny into signing it over to him/her".
rybnik 18 | 1,462
4 Aug 2012  #21
Funny yet brutal Pantsless
terri 1 | 1,624
4 Aug 2012  #22
To the original poster:
Just take it on the chin.
You have no chance of recovering the flat/apartment or anything.
You can try - but you will be wasting your time.
jasondmzk
4 Aug 2012  #23
Just take it on the chin.

It's not even a blow, it's the gleam in a buzzard's eye being extinguished. He lost nothing, because he had nothing to lose. If a judge ever were to void a will, that would reset the entire probate process to intestate, and your "children's children" would themselves be old before anything was resolved. No magistrate is going to order seized property purchased in good faith and dissolve all the equity, therein. Never ever. You are mistaken that my knowledge of law is (A.) Amateurish; and (B) Inapplicable. I tried to soften the blow by leaving you some room for hope, as I thought perhaps the IDEA of having a claim would be solace enough, and that you were in no position to act beyond the desperation of your longing for it to be so. My conscience is now freed from those irons, however, so I have no qualms in telling you your claims are dead in the water. Not only will you never get that golden egg, you might very well end up paying for any of your cousin's legal fees he acquires in fighting your action in rem. This case, from any legal standpoint in Canada or abroad, cannot possibly end in anything in but an Abatement of Action.

I would save your energy, as well as your pennies, invest them wisely, and perhaps one day you can afford to purchase property that you can afford, and that no one in your family went through myriad pains in order to obfuscate your acquiring.
Lenka 3 | 1,551
4 Aug 2012  #24
I do wonder why they didn't follow the correct procedures once she died. Could it be that someone's told them that the flat sold for a considerable amount of money - and now, and only now, they're showing an interest?

I'm personally curious but I think it's also important for his case.Don't you think the judge will ask why they haven't done something about it earlier?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,675
4 Aug 2012  #25
Almost certainly, and I think the judge will also see it from our point of view - that he had little to no interest in the grandmother until the value of the property became apparent. The fact that our friend here seems to think that Poland has a straightforward LEGAL system in which he can GET the property BACK for GOOD is also rather amusing.

I do wonder why his father didn't claim his share straight after her death.

I've heard you're sob story a dozen times before from second and third generation Poles who suddenly had a few brain cells turn over when they found out property is now worth a ton of money in Poland

Brutal and absolutely true.
Konman123 - | 3
5 Aug 2012  #26
the answer is simple, we didn't know the cousin got the home until now.
again, it's not about money at all, it's about keeping the families possessions in the family. value has nothing to do with it.

and for you negative people, we should have a court date by this monday; 2weeks after hiring a lawyer.
all the lawyers, actually seem to be positive the house will be given back. (expected time: 6 months - 1 year)

this forum is pointless now, but thanks for your feed back!
terri 1 | 1,624
5 Aug 2012  #27
We wish you nothing but good luck in your quest.
And just to prove us all wrong, let us know how the case is resolved.
Nothing would make us happier than for you to get the 'family home' within the next year.
However.....
Lenka 3 | 1,551
5 Aug 2012  #28
This whole thing would be sooooooo funny if it wasn't so horrid...I feel sorry for that old women.
jon357 63 | 14,134
5 Aug 2012  #29
There's something in that.

I wonder if he realises that nothing will actually happen at that court date he's got.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
6 Aug 2012  #30
we should have a court date by this monday;

good luck with that.


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