The BEST Guide to POLAND
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BEST Poland's city to Invest in?? Warsaw, Wroclaw, Krakow, Poznan, Gdansk or...?



BoXena    
21 Nov 2015  #1

I'm looking at investment properties all over poland - likely a flat of some time.

Prices certainly vary widely from City to City.

My question is definitely general so I will break it down a bit more:

Best city to buy a 'small' 30-40 metre flat and rent it out either long or short-term?

Best city to buy a BIG 100metre Plus flat and rent it?

Discuss ;)

pozdrawiam

BoXena


Ktos 13 | 391    
21 Nov 2015  #2

I could certainly help you there as I know that market reasonably well but I will not, because you are not Polish. You see when foreigners buy property in Poland they bring with them their rules regarding business matters in this area and I would hate to see more Polish people having to deal with some weird new rules (e.g.: no pets allowed) or having been evicted from their home because a foreign property owner has been harsh and kicked them out due to reasons unknown in Polish culture. Not to mention, we have already been told in the past by Jews this very famous phrase: "Your streets, our buildings" (Wasze ulice, nasze Kamienice), and we certainly do no want a repeat of that.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
21 Nov 2015  #3

I could certainly help you there as I know that market reasonably well but I will not, because you are not Polish.

That's a pretty disgusting thing to say. Imagine if someone told your parents that they won't help them because they aren't locals?

having been evicted from their home because a foreign property owner has been harsh and kicked them out due to reasons unknown in Polish culture.

Your unfamiliarity with Poland is quite obvious. Polish owners of properties tend to use "Ukrainian" solutions to deal with conflicts, while foreigners tend to use the law.

Not to mention, we have already been told in the past by Jews this very famous phrase: "Your streets, our buildings" (Wasze ulice, nasze Kamienice), and we certainly do no want a repeat of that.

Oh, do be quiet.

Discuss ;)

Depends on a lot, but speaking about Poznań or Wrocłąw, the best bet is to buy an apartment in a thoroughly renovated kamienica. They're always popular with a wide section of society, the locations are good and they'll hold their value.

Don't buy above 70sqm or so, you'll struggle to rent it. If you're on site, then it might be worth buying several smaller studio apartments, as they're easy enough to rent to students or young couples.
Ktos 13 | 391    
21 Nov 2015  #4

Delfiandomine:

I know who you are.

I know my country better than most people on this forum, I am the heart and soul of Poland. I will not be silenced by a foreigner such as yourself who does not have Poland's best interest at heart. You do not understand Polish suffering so do come here and tell me what I can say and what I can't say in regards to Polish matter, foreigners, especially western ones are the last ones who can take charge in conversations about Poland. The real Polish are sentimental towards Poland, you are not, your post explains it.

Boxena:

Unless you are of strong Slavic background with understanding and full respect for Polish ways of behaving and doing things and unless you are completely wiling to only accept Polish ways of doing business and ways of treating people then you should not be investing in Poland.
InPolska 11 | 1,824    
21 Nov 2015  #5

Not to forget that it is usually impossible in Poland to expel tenants and therefore renting from far away and when not knowing local habits and law is very risky. We used to have tenants in both Katowice and in Warsaw and after bad experiences (mainly not paying rent) we stopped and have sold...

@Ktos: absolutely! One does not come from out of the blue and starts business in a completely unknown (language, mentality, habits...) country
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
21 Nov 2015  #6

I know my country better than most people on this forum, I am the heart and soul of Poland.

What, Australia?

You know nothing about Poland, and if by "heart and soul", you mean "ran away from Poland", then I agree.

I will not be silenced by a foreigner such as yourself who does not have Poland's best interest at heart.

If you had Poland's best interests at heart, you would start by holding your parents to account for abandoning and betraying Poland in the time of need.

You do not understand Polish suffering so do come here and tell me what I can say and what I can't say in regards to Polish matter, foreigners, especially western ones are the last ones who can take charge in conversations about Poland.

Sorry, but we're going to keep on buying up Poland and using it for our own purposes. What's better is that you can't do anything about it.

Unless you are of strong Slavic background with understanding and full respect for Polish ways of behaving and doing things and unless you are completely wiling to only accept Polish ways of doing business and ways of treating people then you should not be investing in Poland.

Complete and utter nonsense. Boxena can invest here if he/she wants, and foreign ways are more than welcome here. Western ways are badly needed in many areas, and xenophobic rubbish written by an Australian on PF won't change a thing.

Everyone - please focus on the topic only
Ktos 13 | 391    
21 Nov 2015  #7

Sorry, but we're going to keep on buying up Poland and using it for our own purposes. What's better is that you can't do anything about it.

This is where you are mistaken, I can do a whole lot about it and if I am determined enough you will be one to know exactly what I mean by it. You are stomping on risky ground here, my country is not a buying and selling market for foreigners, our land is sacred and will be defended likewise. Encroachment of foreign ownership and foreign methods is viewed by many as a hostile move. This especially when one throws in a comment about western ways being needed badly in many areas of Poland, hmmm... western ego and superiority will be it's downfall, be careful how structure your comments and more importantly be careful how you treat my country, for it is not your country but my country and you are required to assimilate or look for another place, your western or other ways are not welcome here and the only reason that we tend to adopt a lot of western ways is because we have the inferiority syndrome of the poor sister of the West, but we also have something else that let's us counteract this syndrome and that is something westerners are not ready for.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
21 Nov 2015  #8

Totally and utter off-topic.

Poland is free for foreigners to invest in, and we - the people of Poland - (not Australians masquerading as Poles online) welcome foreign investment.

To the OP - I would also advise steering well clear of off-plan properties, as well as large new properties. Generally speaking, the rental market isn't that strong when it comes to new flats, as people would rather buy, and it's difficult on many levels to rent new apartments to students.

The other crucial piece of advice is to look at who administrates the apartment, and to look very closely at all the documentation connected to it. There are plenty of examples of building administrators not acting in the best interest of the property owners.
Roger5 2 | 1,505    
21 Nov 2015  #9

I can do a whole lot about it and if I am determined enough you will be one to know exactly what I mean by it.

Sounds like a threat. What do you mean by that, Ktos?
Ktos 13 | 391    
21 Nov 2015  #10

Poland is free for foreigners to invest in, and we - the people of Poland - (not Australians masquerading as Poles online) welcome foreign investment.

We? You do not represent anything Polish and you are making me laugh at how foreign you sound already, I do not care if you were born in my country or spend there 100 years, you are a foreigner with egotistical western views and Poland does not need people like you, you should not be speaking on my country's behalf, for, Poland is not your country.

By the way, stop repeating yourself about Australia, is that all you have? So many people tried to figure out where I am it made them look ridiculous. they actually read and examined all of my comments and not only my ones ha ha, I had no idea it was so important to many of you, but I understand now that small people have to be preoccupied by small things.

Back on topic please
Boxena:

Try investing in old properites all over Poland, the best!
polishinvestor 1 | 319    
30 Dec 2015  #11

If you are looking for higher yield and prepared to get hands on with your investments, then you can pick up some bargains in smaller towns. Yes there is less liquidity but also you are not competing with as much foreign capital as is the case for prime locations in Warsaw, Wroclaw etc. When I say prime location its important to state it means physical location, not the quality or finish of the unit or flat you are looking to rent out (in fact its better to avoid upper end flats in smaller towns). We started investing in Poland over 10 years ago and began in towns with populations of not more than 100,000. Here you can often get yields of 10% or more, especially if you are prepared to get your hands dirty, by that I mean get involved with the day to day running and maintaining of the investment. And sticking with only prime locations, means you can still pick your tenants to some extent, which means you can avoid problem tenants. In smaller towns, average earnings tend to be lower, which means the ability for tenants to save for a rainy day is reduced and so the greater likelihood of default on rent. As I say, you can avoid this by choosing your tenants well, spending some time on background checks. We found sticking to properties by or very close to the town square with multiple units (at least 5 or 6, mix of shop and residential, but avoiding office space), we could pick up investments at decent rates per metre, yet with yields of sometimes double figure per annum. The main drawback in these smaller towns is the lower liquidity. When buying this helps you to get a lower price, but when selling you need to be prepared to wait 12-18 months for a sale if you are not prepared to negotiate on price. But as long as its prime location, you will be able to sell it. We always listed properties for sale fully or almost fully let, they always went much quicker.
50%polish    
30 Dec 2015  #12

what if a polish person wants to buy in Poland who is not of Poland?
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
31 Dec 2015  #13

Depends if they're Polish by law or a foreigner.
pweeg3    
31 Dec 2015  #14

Really? EU citizenship is sufficient for buying apartments and Land (after 2016).
orail    
11 Oct 2017  #15

Merged:

Recomanded city in Poland to buy Real Estate for foreign investor



Hello
I heard that Poland cities (not sure if Warsaw or Kraków) in a process of growth
I would like know where it's better to buy a real estate ? How much a standard house will cost ? How much will be the monthly rent I will receive ?

What will be the yield for such investment ?

Thank you !
DominicB - | 2,412    
11 Oct 2017  #16

What will be the yield for such investment ?

Seeing that you are totally clueless and utterly ignorant about the market, about the same as you would get if you were to flush the money down the toilet, and quite well possibly even less.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,419    
11 Oct 2017  #17

@orail

Depends on city, location within the city/suburbs, type of property (residential - what kind of residential? commercial, agricultural, etc.), size, budget, bed/bath count, new/old, remodeled or not, etc. There's a hundred factors when it comes to just residential alone.

It seems you're looking mostly at residential. In Wroclaw a cheaper place will cost 2-2.5k zloty (perhaps you can find one even a tad lower) to rent, a mid to fairly large 80-100+ m2 apartment for 3.5k-5k and around 7k for a larger 3 bed/2 bath on an upper floor, corner, in a hot area and nicer larger 1k+ m2 homes from 6k for like a vacation home or rural area to 8k, 10k, 20k zloty plus with everything in between in cities. There are homes for sale ranging from 400k zloty for a nice newly built town house on the outskirts in a development to even several million Euro for like a former castle or historic place or simply a large newly built home. One condo I really liked was in Skytower (the hotel I stay at when I'm staying in downtown Wroclaw) was 1.2mln zloty for somethink like 70-75 sq m2 or so with 500 zloty association fee. If you have the money to buy the land and invest I'd recommend a smallish (maybe like 6-12 unit)apartment/condo building that's a tad bit outside the city so you can take advantage of the cheaper land but still close enough to get to the downtown with a 10-20 min drive (again depending on city and all). You'll rent or sell them all out in no time.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend trying to flip a house or something like that unless you can buy it super cheap and have the knowhow to fix it up.
orail    
11 Oct 2017  #18

@Dirk diggler

Yes , I'm looking for something residential maybe for students, I think center area is a safe bet, no? will be easy to rent,no ?

I'm looking for something with potential that will increase its value after 1-3 years, but I don't have alot of money so it can't be a castle for several million Euro :)

250-400 zloty (tops) should be ok, what can I find with such amount ? Where should I search in which city ?

Oh...and what do you mean by flip a house, recondition?
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,419    
11 Oct 2017  #19

@orail

Things near unis which are generally in the center of cities like Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw, etc. can be found for 200k-400k zloty to purchase but properties have been going up quite a bit and that's pretty entry level for purchasing. You're looking at around 5-5.5k zloty per m2 for a cheaper place and over 7-8k for something in a bit nicer, newer area (average - doesn't always apply). Keep in mind you won't be able to sell it till within 1-3 years without incurring a big tax penalty you'll need to hold onto it I believe a minimum of 5 years. 300k-400k will get you a 70 m2 2 bed, 1 bathroom flat. 200k will get you a tiny studio the size of a bedroom. For 400k zloty you may be able to find a nice home though in a more rural area on the outskirts of town.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
11 Oct 2017  #20

Yes , I'm looking for something residential

You might want to read up on tenants' rights before spending any money.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,419    
11 Oct 2017  #21

@orail

Yeah Harry has a good point. Its a pain in the ass evicting someone who isn't paying and getting your money's worth. Plus a student isn't really tied to his or her place. If he owes a significant amount of cash it's easier for him to just throw his clothes and laptop in a bag and leave without paying months of back rent.

Personally, unless you don't have the money to invest in like a nice modern fairly large 4-6-8 or more flat type building and can monitor it and make it nice and large enough to where mostly upper middle class singles or middle/upper middle class families can live I wouldn't do it...

You won't make anything by buying some bedroom sized studio for 200k and trying to rent it out for 2k zloty a month.
orail    
12 Oct 2017  #22

So for a good place you sugest to invest 400K Zloty , then I will be able to find a nice place in the center of some big city for upper middle class singles or families which will significantly reduce the possibility of rental problems like money issues or home repair, correct ?

What will be the monthly rent for such place ?

Dirk may I speak with via Skype ?
terri 1 | 1,263    
12 Oct 2017  #23

Prices of flats in any city are far more than you expect. In Krakow, near Pl. Inwalidow, they are currently going for 7.5-8 K pln per m2. So 400K pln will hardly buy you something decent to rent out and make a profit out of.

You can of course, buy a place to renovate, but generally speaking, it will cost you more in the long run and you will not be able to make any money on it during renovation process.
cms 9 | 1,170    
12 Oct 2017  #24

In the center of a big town you will need at least 6000 per sqm and in Warsaw the average is now round 8000. For a 60sqm place in Krakow or Poznan then you will not get much change from 500k zloty once you have furnished it and paid transaction costs.

Middle class families will be less willing to live in the middle of cities once their kid starts walking. There is a lot of govt support for them to buy new build places and on the edge of big towns there are lots of small housing developments being built where they can have a kind of 80-90sqm house.

I have had a couple of rental properties here and my average yield has been 5.2 percent - i rented both to students and young families and the yield is pretty much the same. Thats before I take into account my own time managing them. You will find some people who can claim much higher yields but they are generally more experienced, cost conscious investors with time to manage the process.

I only had one problem tenant but a bigger issue is the czynsz and repair costs - it is getting difficult to pass these on to tenants - most want to know for certain how much they will pay and not have annual unpredictable increases.
orail    
12 Oct 2017  #25

@cms

So you don't recomanned to buy in the center of a big city since government support young family to move near by to the suburbans ?

such a house will cost 400-500K zloty ? and it willl be 70-80sqm ?

What about Krakow how much for per sqm?
dovla    
12 Oct 2017  #26

Rental yields in Wroclaw are typically 4.0-5.0% net assuming that you rent directly and don't pay any middle-man. I assume that you don't want to go through the hassle of renovating an old place, so will be looking for something relatively new i.e. after 2000. The price of such apartments in the center of Wroclaw, i.e within 15-20 min walking distance from Rynek is typically 7000-8500 zl/m2. If you go a bit further from the center, but still well connected by public transportation (e.g. along Grabiszynska or Legnicka street) process do not really go down, so you should still count on 7000-8000 zl/m2. If you go even further, to some nice residential area ~ 5-6 km from Rynek, but not not so well connected e.g. Grabiszynek, count on ~6500 zl/m2. You need to take into account the transaction cost and currency risk (if zloty tanks, you loose) and have in mind that the market is not so liquid - once you decide to sell, you may need to wait for a long time to find a buyer. I advise you to look for some other investment opportunities. You don't know the market, you don't live in Poland, you don't speak the language - you will burn your money.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,419    
12 Oct 2017  #27

@orail

I'm not a real estate investor nor a developer. Most of my experience is based off my own properties or those of family and friends. Personally I think there's far better investments that illiquid low yield real estate.

I'm assuming your a foreigner. If you insist on real estate or opening a business you need a polish speaker you can trust to explain the processes costs look over contracts and just generally make sure all your ducks are in order. Cwaniaczki (aka smart a$$e$) prey on people like you and will steal all your money and leave you with little to no recourse of recovering it. Im still fighting a property related case for almost 2 years now which would've been easily settled in my favor in the us otherwise.. And I'm a citizen fluent in polish lol.. Trust me dude unless you're living there full time and plan to regularly manage it and can find a local that you can trust (the hardest part IMO) dont do it.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,419    
12 Oct 2017  #28

Also youve already missed the big rally for the most part. Yes values are imcreasing but its far lower and more steady than it use to be. Most the people who bought property and saw its value rise almost exponentially bought sometime between the 90s to a few years after Poland's EU entrance in 2004. Back then you could (say like 2002 for example) you could buy a two hectare or so field w some old commie era 2 story on it outside the city for maybe $40k to $60k and have it worth $1 mln today.
dovla    
12 Oct 2017  #29

FYI, here are the average property prices in Warszaw, Krakow, and Wroclaw for the past 10 years (source: National Bank of Poland). As you can see, prices were growing until mid-2007, dropping till mid-2012, and since then they are more-less stable. If you cross check with the EUR/PLN exchange rate, you will actually see that even after mid-2012 the prices in EUR continued to slide slowly.

Warszaw/Krakow/Wroclaw
III 20067,1797,1145,261
IV 20068,7517,3835,857
I 20079,3168,3696,747
II 20079,7408,2727,038
III 200710,0788,2557,194
IV 20079,9528,1407,266
I 20089,8507,9797,138
II 20089,7837,9347,159
III 20089,6797,1806,922
IV 200810,1967,2516,859
I 20099,6266,8646,785
II 200910,1336,6786,749
III 20099,7056,5646,842
IV 20099,6716,7346,758
I 20109,9016,9166,725
II 20109,9826,9376,678
III 20109,7886,9096,562
IV 20109,7676,9646,602
I 20119,7067,2066,576
II 20119,4727,2466,582
III 20119,3976,9496,541
IV 20119,3636,9896,397
I 20129,1116,7766,367
II 20129,0356,7246,307
III 20128,9006,6176,182
IV 20128,7686,6486,100
I 20138,6066,6445,959
II 20138,6386,4895,986
III 20138,5446,5855,984
IV 20138,6276,5376,098
I 20148,6226,7546,096
II 20148,6916,6825,899
III 20148,6266,6445,980
IV 20148,6366,8606,017
I 20158,6087,0305,901
II 20158,5536,9785,812
III 20158,5656,9485,930
IV 20158,6556,7955,914
I 20168,6586,8275,951
II 20168,7216,7565,984
III 20168,7786,8376,062
IV 20168,7096,9106,165
I 20178,8166,8596,253
II 20178,8856,9926,267
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,419    
12 Oct 2017  #30

As you can see, prices were growing until mid-2007, dropping till mid-2012, and since then they are more-less stable

I do think property values will continue to slowly but surely grow for some time and rents will gradually grow with the flood of Ukranians as well as foreigners coming to Poland for work and study as wages rise along with a lot of Poles moving back from the UK and a handful from US. I read an article on the plane last time I went to Poland that almost every single international moving company providing moving services from UK to PL are booked solid for the next 6+ months.

The times where you could make 50-100%+ profit flipping a place or buy a small 6 apartment building for maybe $100-$200k and rent each unit out for an average of 3k zloty a month are over though.




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