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Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland?


f stop 25 | 2,513
18 Sep 2010 #91
Thanks! Good stuff! I heard about Brazil - but I got scared after I looked at the pictures of a house a friend bought - it looked like a fortress, iron bars all around.

My son loves Recife!
I have a property in Caribbean, slated (sometime in this century, I hope) for vacation rental. There, all I really hoped for was to come out even after spending one month there a year, in the winter. This might not happen, but with land and property taxes so low, I can just sit on it and leave it for my son to deal with.

One of the ideas I got here for Poland was to get something near a Uni so I can rent it out all school year to students and have it for myself in the summer. I'm just wondering how feasible that is.
OP Piotr123 3 | 54
18 Sep 2010 #92
I do not live in Poland but I think that when you come back in the summer to live in the apartment there will be no apartment left. It is a very bad idea to rent out your apartment unsupervised on the other side of the world! Especially if you are renting it out to young people.

Besides, you will get so little money for renting it out that it would hardly be worth it. I think the rent for a one bedroom apartment outside the city centre is about 300 euro per month in Warsaw, but anyone with more knowledge is free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It is never a good investment to buy an apartment and just sit on it. Many people think they will be able to rent out their apartment, but this is usually only a viable option if the apartment was bought for that purpose to begin with.

The other option is if you actually live near the apartment you are renting out, meaning that you can rent it out for shorter periods when there is a demand. You will not find anyone to rent out the apartment to for long periods if you live on the other side of the world. Any such enterprise is just too risky and the tenants will not want to pay much money in rent.

In fact, finding anyone to rent out the apartment to at all for long periods will be hard unless there is something special about the apartment. Luxurious apartments in big cities could be rented out to big companies for very long periods.

It could work to rent out the apartment in the Caribbean but it depends on the apartment, the location and the demand. In some locations it could be very hard and not profitable at all, while in other locations it could be really easy to rent out the apartment and quite profitable.
poland_
18 Sep 2010 #93
Here is something you may find interesting Piotr123

Article dated,17th September 2010

Landlords hiked their rents for the seventh month in a row during August, the steepest increases for more than a year, research showed today.
The average cost of renting a home in the UK rose by 1.4% during the month to £686, the highest level since September 2008, according to LSL Property Services.

The rise, which was the biggest monthly increase since August last year, is being driven by a shortage of properties to rent as increasing numbers of people put plans to buy a home on hold.

David Newnes, estate agency managing director of LSL Property Services, said: 'Rents are jumping up as more and more potential home buyers opt to rent.

'People are wary of a crash in house prices and concerned over the effect of government cuts on their own ability to meet long-term financial commitments.

'Additionally, many can't get a mortgage at an affordable rate.
'Furthermore, the huge number of reluctant landlords we saw renting out property last year have now had the opportunity to bank their gains and sell up.'

The group said it did not expect rents to start falling again until the current problems in the mortgage market were resolved.
f stop 25 | 2,513
18 Sep 2010 #94
I see the similar thing happeninig in US. So many people regret buying during the bubble, and being tied to a piece of real estate when job market calls for more mobility, that renting is becoming a smart thing to do.
malyniebieski 3 | 16
19 Sep 2010 #95
I just want to know who can afford those expensive apartment in Krakow that go at around 15,000zl per m2. I think that these per metre prices are absolutely insane.

On another note, how can I find the owner of a unit? I have found a unit that my wife and I are considering but the estate company will not communicate/negotiate with the seller about the price. And so, I want to talk to the owner myself. Any ideas? The seller does not live in Poland.

Janek
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
19 Sep 2010 #96
I just want to know who can afford those expensive apartment in Krakow that go at around 15,000zl per m2. I think that these per metre prices are absolutely insane.

The truth is that very few properties were going for that price - yes, it did happen, but that was the going price for a place on or right next to the Rynek - and the price was almost certainly bumped up by idiot foreigners willing to pay a fortune to be there. People buying those flats weren't going to be put off by paying around 3,500 EUR per square metre - the location was everything and the supply was and is very, very limited.

Right now, buying a Kamenica in Lviv's Ploschta Rynok would be a fantastic investment.
poland_
19 Sep 2010 #97
Right now, buying a Kamenica in Lviv's Ploschta Rynok would be a fantastic investment.

D, what are the prices?

On another note, how can I find the owner of a unit? I have found a unit that my wife and I are considering but the estate company will not communicate/negotiate with the seller about the price. And so, I want to talk to the owner myself. Any ideas? The seller does not live in Poland.

If you have signed a contract with the agent you will have still have to pay the commission... Contact the administration company or the reception on the building to get the name of the owner and then send the owner a registered letter, if someone is looking after it for them they will accept and hopefully put you in contact. But if the agent does not want to negotiate there has to be a reason, as he works on commission.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
20 Sep 2010 #98
D, what are the prices?

property.com.ua/property.php?id=183

That gives you an idea - works out about $1900 for a square metre in the main square.

Investing in Ukraine is probably like investing in Poland in the mid 1990's, I'd say.
OP Piotr123 3 | 54
20 Sep 2010 #99
I just want to know who can afford those expensive apartment in Krakow that go at around 15,000zl per m2. The seller does not live in Poland.Janek

The average price for an apartment located in one of the nicer areas of central Stockholm is 25,000 PLN per square meter. I don't see why the prices in cities like Warsaw and Krakow could not raise to similar levels in a few years.

There are many more rich people in Poland than in Sweden. This may sound surprising but the reason for this is because Sweden has a very small population compared to Poland. There are also many immigrants in Sweden from the Middle East and Africa, who are often very poor and unemployed.

The ethnic Swedish population is only 7 million. Sweden was ranked this year by the World Economic Forum as the country where income is most evenly distributed in the world. The thing is that not many people in Sweden are rich, meaning that the market for expensive apartments is quite small.

The reason why luxury apartments in Poland are expensive is because they are actually luxury apartments, not only expensive due to their location. The luxury apartments in Sweden are only considered luxury apartments because of their location. Two identical apartments could vary enormously in price depending on the location. In fact, such apartments that are considered standard for luxury apartments in Poland cannot even be found anywhere in Sweden!

That gives you an idea - works out about $1900 for a square metre in the main square. Investing in Ukraine is probably like investing in Poland in the mid 1990's, I'd say.

I think investing in Ukraine at the moment is a very bad idea because the economy there is like a roller coaster. It could be almost impossible to sell the apartment at a later time. There was an economic collapse in 1991 and now the country was hit again very hard by the financial crisis. The GDP (nominal) per capita is less than that of a long list of African countries! The economy of Ukraine needs to mature more before investors will have confidence in the country.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
20 Sep 2010 #100
i'd say it's a good time to buy.

i just sold mine and because of market changes over the past year or so i had to go down considerably in price to sell it. i wasn't ready to sell 2 years ago and it makes me sick to my stomach when i think about the offers i got on it back then compared to now.

for people with a large chunk of cash looking to invest in real estate, maybe see if the market jumps if and when the Euro 2012 comes to town and then dump them for a quick buck, it could be a great time to buy.
poland_
20 Sep 2010 #101
You sold your property in the Ukraine?
Wroclaw Boy
20 Sep 2010 #102
maybe see if the market jumps if and when the Euro 2012

There's been a fair amount of hype linked between Euro 2012 and local property prices, personally i think its just that - hype.

I mean how the hell could a football tournament increase property prices? Rental rates ohh yeh for a few weeks but...

And so, I want to talk to the owner myself. Any ideas? The seller does not live in Poland.

Set up a meeting to discuss terms, who ever turns up to represent the owner will be your direct link to the owner.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
20 Sep 2010 #103
warszawski wrote:

You sold your property in the Ukraine?

no, poland.

Wroclaw Boy wrote:

There's been a fair amount of hype linked between Euro 2012 and local property prices, personally i think its just that - hype.

you could very well be right. maybe it's all hype, but speculation often times dictates prices.
OP Piotr123 3 | 54
20 Sep 2010 #104
Could anyone give me a rough estimate on how much it would cost to complete a two bedroom apartment in Poland to a good standard?

I will visit Krakow by the end of this week to check apartments, so I really need to know at least vaguely how much I would need to spend after the apartment is bought.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
20 Sep 2010 #105
Also Piotr123, you should take a look at: Angel city Development in Krakow.

Could anyone give me a rough estimate on how much it would cost to complete a two bedroom apartment in Poland to a good standard?

Considering a high standard (and really depending on what a high standard is) I would guestimate 80,000 - 100,000 PLN (20,000 - 25,000 Euro) for full finish to be let out the next day.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
20 Sep 2010 #106
Excluding furniture, I would have thought you could achieve a decent finish for around 1200PLN m2 as a budget figure. SeanBM should be able to give you a more accurate figure as this is his line of work and he has a fitout company in the Krakow area.
OP Piotr123 3 | 54
21 Sep 2010 #107
Also Piotr123, you should take a look at: Angel city Development in Krakow.

Are you trying to give me reservations about buying an apartment in Krakow? That thread was not very encouraging.

Considering a high standard (and really depending on what a high standard is) I would guestimate 80,000 - 100,000 PLN (20,000 - 25,000 Euro) for full finish to be let out the next day.

Thank you for the information! I had feared that the cost would be much, much higher than that. Is it possible for the developer to finish the apartment? If so, would this alternative be more advantageous than enlisting the services of independent contractors? Would there be any difference in price or the quality of the work done?

If the developer finishes the apartment is it also possible for them to furnish it? I also assume that the figure you provided is without white goods. I appreciate any information you can provide.

Excluding furniture, I would have thought you could achieve a decent finish for around 1200PLN m2 as a budget figure. SeanBM should be able to give you a more accurate figure as this is his line of work and he has a fitout company in the Krakow area.

If the figure is somewhat accurate then the information will be very helpful to me.
malyniebieski 3 | 16
21 Sep 2010 #108
Hi D,

That is true that the main sqaure has the most expensive per metre prices. However, I have found that there are many units outside the sqaure with very high per metre prices: Kremerowska-Residence, the units on Piłsudskiego and the units on Kopernika--Parkside Residence.

Janek
Rtard - | 7
21 Sep 2010 #109
AFAIK apartments are indeed quite expensive. However, there are lot of detached houses that cost as much as or are cheaper than flats. Yeah, I know it sounds surprising
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
21 Sep 2010 #110
Are you trying to give me reservations about buying an apartment in Krakow? That thread was not very encouraging.

That was not my intention, I had not looked at that thread in a while.
I meant that Angel City is a high end development in the centre of the city.
Across the road (more or less) i a quick light rail to the airport and galleria Krakowska.

I am not really trying to give you reservations about buying or encourage you.
The market in Poland is very much a local one and I am not a real estate agent.

Is it possible for the developer to finish the apartment?

it depends on the development but most do.

If so, would this alternative be more advantageous than enlisting the services of independent contractors?

My advice is to shop around, I don't see any particular advantage of using the developer verses an independent contractor.

Would there be any difference in price or the quality of the work done?

Again it depends on the company, your best bet is to shop around, the developers and independent contractors will be able to tell you over the phone how much it will cost to finish, if you tell them what kind of finish you want.

If the developer finishes the apartment is it also possible for them to furnish it?

I have not heard of a developer doing this but usually the developer will subcontract a company to do do this and you'll have to speak to them.

I also assume that the figure you provided is without white goods.

Do you mean a biały montagż? Then the answer is, it does come with it.
poland_
2 Oct 2010 #111
Polish house prices continue to fall, despite economic growth

House price falls continued in major cities in Poland, despite better-than-expected economic growth. GDP expanded by 3.5% y-o-y to Q2 2010, above consensus predictions, with strong domestic demand driving growth.

nuwireinvestor.com/articles/oversupply-impedes-polands-real -estate-recovery-56152.aspx
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Oct 2010 #112
I wouldn't say so. I got a central place for 163,000PLN and it's 50m2. It needs a little bit of work but not too much to spruce it up :)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
2 Oct 2010 #113
Congratulations Seanus on having your own place, you've been thinking about it for a while.
That's a good price too!

If it's not too personal a question, how is rent compared to your mortgage. you don't have to answer of course, as it is a bit personal)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Oct 2010 #114
Thanks, Seanny :) Well, the credit deal means that we will have to pay a lot in the first 3 years but (nadpłaty). Rent went up from 750 to 950PLN in my current place which is still ok. However, we needed a bigger place for a number of reasons. A future kid being right up there amongst the considerations. It works out that we pay much the same, fractionally more, to get our own place. A sudden deluge of new private students will help out the cause :)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
2 Oct 2010 #115
Rent went up from 750 to 950PLN in my current place

Why did it go up so much, did they do a refurbishment?
That's quite an increase.

It works out that we pay much the same, fractionally more

That's good then, good for you.

A future kid being right up there

So we might hear the pitter-patter of little fingers on a keyboard :)
Fair play to ya, it's all ahead of you.
Wroclaw Boy
2 Oct 2010 #116
Well done Seanus, what currency mortgage did you opt for?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Oct 2010 #117
Seanny, the utility costs soared but I know that a devious and grabbing woman lay behind that decision, not my landlord. There may well be that sound, yes :)

Currency mortgage? I plead ignorance on this one. It's probably sth very simple you are asking but I'm unfamiliar with the terminology. Sorry, a blond moment :(
milky 13 | 1,657
2 Oct 2010 #118
Lots of questions at once man eh...but,,was that price you paid for a shell or has it got bathroom etc
Wroclaw Boy
2 Oct 2010 #119
Currency mortgage?

I assume the bank offered you a mortgage in a choice of currencies i.e. PLN, CHF (Swiss franc) Euro etc.. The interest rates differ depending on the currency of the mortgage.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Oct 2010 #120
Milky, it has a bathroom and we negotiated a boiler into the deal :)

WB, that's what I thought. In PLN and we entered into discussions about any distorting effects of opting for the EURO when it comes around. We went through WGN for credit, based in Wrocław I think. Quite the businessman, their owner ;)

You learn that negotiating/haggling skills are key in Poland. He wasn't prepared to go below 165k but he did and 2k is 2k at the end of the day. There are already tiles in place which I like. The kitchen is pretty much furnished though we need a new fridge and a cooker. Still, it's like a project and a fun one at that.


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