Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland?

Do you mean that the apartment would have been priced at 2,500,000 PLN before the crisis? Otherwise it sounds extreme that it would be possible to haggle down the price by 40%. I must say though that the apartment looks very interesting.


Of course there are apartments priced much higher than 1,000,000 euro in Warsaw, however apartments at that price in Warsaw are most certainly luxury apartments.

It is my opinion that this thread is going way off-topic. Personally I think the people bickering should do it somewhere else. The participants have made it quite clear that they only continue the discussion to insult the other party.

I want this thread to be informative for other people who seek information on the topic of buying an apartment in Krakow, links to useful websites and answers to related questions.

Links for websites to search for apartments:

wbj.tabelaofert.com (new projects)
property-krakow.com (new projects and secondary market)

Information about prices:


Does anyone have any experience to share about the "Pod Klucz" concept offered by Dom Development? domdevelopment.com.pl

This is what I do not agree with, Polish developers do not fit out apartments flats and houses, because Poles want to buy at the lowest possible price. Furthermore it was possible to claim back the costs of re-build or refit from your tax paid. If the developer finished off in full you would have lost money.


This may be your experience,but it is not the norm, there are some very good developers on the market. If you are quoted a stan sturowy price and you want finishing, then of course you have to pay, but the quality and type of product will be in an attachment to the pre agreement before the final notarial act. So how can they shaft you?


Really...

Rule of thumb in Poland. Words mean nothing,there is no such thing as a gentleman's agreement, it does not exist here - everything is about the notarial act or pre - agreement written by a Notary . If it is not in the Notarial act it is not happening.

Take all the time in the world,
I am here.


Yes, if you check the history of the price, you will see it went from 2.5 mln to 2.1 mln. The only draw back is there is no lift and no underground parking, but you can get residents parking as it is strefa B.

What you got was not parquet flooring, but horrible PVC sickly blue, grey, or green "tiles" which then everyone who had any money immediately ripped out and replaced with parquet at their own cost. If people are getting rid of parquets now it's because they are very difficult to take care of in the long run (the floors, not the people).

Dom Developments are only on the Warsaw market as far as I know, I could be wrong though.

"Pod Klucz" translates to turn-key. Dom developments offer 4 standards of finnish with the price increasing as the standard gets higher. Many developers offer this solution and you pay for what you get. Some people on this forum, have had bad experience with developers, but my experience has been good, so I can only say positive things. It is very important to have everything related to the sale, in the Notarial act or the pre agreement written by a Notary. The other option is to find a Interior designer, there are lots out there in Poland who have recently graduated, who are very good and need to build their portfolio. The way it works is firstly they will do the project for you, that can cost anywhere from 1,000 PLN to ? depending on the size of the project. They also make there money by taking you to their suppliers were they normally get a kick back of 10%, but they are happy to give you 5% back if you let them know, you know the deal or you can let them have the full 10% and ask them to project manage on your behalf.

This is exactly what I was thinking, all this sh1te talk about everything and nothing to do with the actual question. Its the same guys over and over again.

What most people want to know in the real world is will the 2005-07 price explosions reverse. If no is the(your) answer, which is OBVIOUSLY what the main players here think, well then move on to a different thread and discuss these minor details of no significance to the big picture.

Its not my experience its my opinion.


And then pay more for finishing?


If the developer finished 300 units at developers prices and you finished on your own do you still think it would cost the buyer more money? I dont think so. A small tax incentive is nothing in the big scheme of things.


Yes and, im not talking about that, im saying if Polish developers finished as standard like the UK, Ireland US etc.. I'm saying in the short term finishes would be of poor quality in order for larger profits, its a dog eat dog situation at the moment.


What are you rambling on about now? youve totally changed the subject, do you think i need a lesson in Polish bureaucracy or something?

Lets get back to some of your other posts,


Based on: property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article7112728.ece


Its so biased, extreme examples to lure gullible readers. "buying a single tap COULD save you the cost of a cheap flight to Poland" come on. They've taken a cheap and expensive example and compared it to typical London prices or expensive plumbing supply outlets. Not an accurate picture at all.


So he saved a few quid on Villeroy & Boch tiles, who the hell is going to travel to Poland to buy designer tiles, B&Q has the same tiles as Castorama from £10 m2 to over a £100, thats the market bulk right there not Villeroy & Boch.


So £600 transport for two palets of tiles, grout and cement, no thanks i'll hit B&Q.

and this is your :


The report only says tiles, grout and cement, where are those bathrooms and other products?

Is this a thread on property prices or not moderator??

Look WB, you have your opinion, I have mine, I do not agree with most of what you have to say, but that doesn't make you a bad person. So lets just leave it there and move on. Because I have more important things to do and I am sure you have as well.

Were discussing finishing units which directly affects the prices.


I had more important things to do and i was doing them till you called me out so i made some time for you.

You called me names, accused me of lying then insulted me, now youre back tracking, weaseling out even


isn't that ironic?

You not even going to counter argue your tried and tested links?

I would just like to add this to your Times report, you can buy dual purpose taps in the UK as well you know. Have you even read that report?


What a weird thing to say.

In the future try not to exaggerate points and change peoples words to suit your agenda.

I assumed that the source of your 100,000 EUR bathroom story was unreliable, however after our argument yesterday and your attitude I'm fairly sure it was you who has exaggerated / lied.

I would have thought that the question from the original poster was very ambiguous and open to several types of answers/questions. He stated he was looking for flats at the top end of the market, requested prices from people here but made no mention if the flat was to be finished or left to developers standard. The cost equasion then becomes a "how long is a piece of string".

Other posters pointed out to him that prices can vary considerably, depending, on the type of finishes you require and the limit of your budget. How the subject got on to 100 000 euro bathrooms, I'm not quite sure but the quality of the build and finishes will always affect the price.

You have been told countless times by people who are experienced in dealing with property in Poland that there has been a correction to the huge price rises from 2005-2007, albeit, not as large a reduction as you would like. You want someone, anyone, to agree with you that prices are going to fall back to the levels of 2000-2002. This is not going to happen but I am very sure that in one or two weeks time you will repost the same question hoping that Polsky, Claritus or one of the others will be back to agree with you.

What follows is a recent artical in the Warsaw Business Journal:-

Invest Plan's lake project

13th September 2010

Developer Invest Plan Group has launched sales of homes in the first phase of its Wille nad Zalewem scheme - a project located in Białobrzegi on Zegrzyńskie Lake near Warsaw, a popular holiday destination for the capital's inhabitants.

The investment will be developed in two stages, delivering a total of 39 houses. Construction on the first stage, comprising 18 villas and a commercial building, started in June and is expected to finish in Q3 2011. The average price of houses in Wille nad Zalewem amounts to zł.1.5 million.

Now this may be what the original poster had in mind, but, with the best will in the world, apartments and houses are not going to go down to the 1500 PLNm2 that you seem to require.

What is my experience with property here in Poland?.......I have actually bought land, planned/designed, built and sold apartments from the ground up to the finishes. I think that qualifies me, along with over 30 years in the Federation of Master Builders and having given NHBC 10 years guarantees on apartments and houses I built in the UK.

I await with anticipation, the next load of crap you come out with.


Two links to articals that may help you decide if the price of high end apartments are going to slide/crash. Whilst they refer to the market in Warsaw, Krakow is not that far behind.

wbj.pl/realestatenews-51073-healthy-numbers.html
wbj.pl/article-50815-a-luxury-tax.html

You called me names, accused me of lying then insulted me,

If its about all Polish developers being corrupt and NOT trustworthy, then yes you are a liar.

I don't do backtracking or weaseling out, if I am wrong,then I am wrong. Failure is not about falling, it is about not getting back up again.

If you want to contact me about this post PM me and don't waste other peoples threads.

Whats with all the confusing lines and quote strategies?

Look, ive already been over the thread twice digging up your posts to prove points, im not prepared to go through that again, not at the moment anyway. If you dont believe that you accused me of lying then called me names and were also a little patronizing re-read your posts yourself.


No i think ill post here instead thank you, and why don't you try practicing what you preach, more irony.

Still waiting for those bathrooms and other products that Brits travel to Poland to buy because they are cheaper.....


I didnt say that, didnt even imply it, there you go assuming and putting words into peoples mouths again.

stop being an imbecile,now you are only making yourself look like a idiot.

Is it cheaper to rent or own?

Depends on the price paid, deposit put down and interest rate attached to the mortgage, at the moment it would be cheaper to rent in terms of monthly rent versus mortgage repayments - assuming the mortgage was 100% LTV, that's the only fair way to compare.

Thanks WB! I'm still pretty ignorant about the prices, but a rough estimate - how much would an apt cost that you can easily rent for ... let's normalize it - 1000 zł/mo?

In most cities you could probably pick up an older kaminica or even a communist block style flat for around 180,000 PLN and rent for 1000 PLN / month. Many factors come into play, its difficult to answer accurately without the specifics.

Thank you WB!!
And these apt buildings charge some kind of a maintanance fees? A WAG?
I have so many more questions..
When you rent out, typically is it a tenant that turns on the utilities like water and electricity, or is it expected to be in the owners name?

And, as a Polish citizen, you get taxed on the rent you receive as income?

Yes, you pay administration fees.
Trash collection, maintenance of common areas fees, the heating and electricity for the common areas (stairwell) also come in to this, camera monitoring (if applicable), receptionist (again if applicable) and usually after all this there is a collection for renovation, if the administrator is any good they will insulate the building etc... but not always.

And this usually pay every month under the title of "administration fees".
It is definitely worth looking in to how the building is being maintained when buying an apartment here.

Thanks Sean. I assume then that this is not a set number, but it gets devided, according to incurred expences, between all the owners? Any rumours of what this range might be?

The administration fee is different in different buildings, as the owners are supposed to get together and agree how it is paid.
The most common way is you pay a percentage depending on how many metres square you own.


As this thread is focused on high-end apartments, for a price bracket, that really depends on the standard of the apartment block, some come with 24 hour receptionists, CCTV cameras, gyms etc...

I wouldn't want to say a price and give the wrong impression, if you are more specific, then I can be.

Thank you Sean!!
How about insurance? Do these a$$holes make the laws of the land like they do in US? If so, who pays it - owner or tenant?

This project is about 25 Klm north of Warsaw, Zegrzyńskie Lake has a beach, a couple of ports and there is a canal that links the lake with Wisla. The gmina is Nierporet and there are a lot of osiedle's being built a little closer to Warsaw, area's like Michałów-Grabina are very good and reasonably priced. You could pick up a new build 300 sq mtrs with a 1,000 sq mtr plot for about 1,000,000 PLN. (stan sturowy)

On the south side of Warsaw, you have Konstancin, Zalesie, Gorny/Dolny which have been built up. So now the developers are focusing on the north.

Zegrzyńskie Lake, is nice and in the summer it is very vibrant, there are new roads being built and there is new bridge under construction, that would allow access to the metro in Mlociny. If you were driving to the center of Warsaw from Z L in rush hour on a week day,now it would probably take 90- 120 mins each way. The North side of Warsaw is just a construction site.

But it is a interesting project.

so, a high end - 1mil. Can you rent it for 5K/mo?
And again, are the utilities in owners name or the tenant turns them on?

I'm not interested to know if the prices are going to hit rock bottom, only whether it is a good time to buy an apartment now or not. I feel that I have gotten a good answer to that question, although the fact that apartments are sold unfitted was a rather unexpected turn.

Is it also correct that a garage space costs 30,000 euro? You seem to have a lot of insight into the topic, perhaps you know the average cost to fit a two bedroom apartment? A rough estimate is enough.

Not that expensive, 30 - 45,000 PLN which is about 8,000 to 11,000 Euro roughly

If you'll excuse me for not answering tonight, I would not like to misinform anyone but I will get back to you.


In Krakow city centre, an underground car park space under your flat with a lift, should cost about 8,500 - 10,000 Euros or 35,000 - 40,000 PLN.

I have a lot of experience in the international buy-to-let market and I can tell you that there are so many unknown factors that the reality will be completely different than you had planned for. The calculations are really good until you find out about all the factors that you hadn't anticipated.


Ah yes, I mixed things up! I must have inadvertently read it as a much higher number because I thought of my experience from from Tokyo where having your own garage space costs about 100,000 euro.

I know! The only thing I can do at this time is keep on asking questions.
Tell us about some of those not-so-obvious factors that you know about, please.
I assume that most of them will not be in my favour. ;)


You've been very helpfull already. Thank you. And I assure you, none of this will be held against you.
;)

I could write a book about it but I will try to give you some answers. I'm speaking generally from my experience in the international buy-to-let market; however I will also give my thoughts on the situation in big cities in Europe.

Firstly, it can be very hard to find people to rent out the apartment. In many hot markets the real estate agent might claim that the demand for apartments to rent is huge! The problem is that so is the selection of apartments to rent. Why, the developer might even give you a 6% a year rental guarantee but this is just nonsense because the demand is nowhere big enough.

In Spain renting out your holiday apartment is a hopeless enterprise because besides the low demand there are sometimes rules that prohibit you from even renting out the apartment. Brazil is a very hot market where there are many resorts that offer full rental management, although the developers giving rental guarantees just give empty promises because they cannot give such guarantees.

For example, in Natal the developers have spoken for years about a huge surge in tourism that is coming soon, always soon. The new airport was supposed to give tourism a huge boost. The problem? The old airport was not even at full capacity! The new airport was built for the world cup in Natal, not because of tourism demand.

The situation is the same in Spain, Portugal and Greece. People are also not going to rent apartments to spend their time in Egypt or Morocco. Another problem is the visa because even if you buy an apartment you cannot live as a resident in many countries. The most beneficial benefits are given in many countries in South America, giving you a residence permit for buying an apartment. Many of the countries also allow you to apply for citizenship only after a few years.

Why is this important? Because you will never be able to rent out your apartment in Montevideo from Montana, USA or wherever you live. The same problem applies to Poland regardless of Polish citizenship because you cannot rent out your apartment in Sopot in a practical way if you live on the other side of the world.

In many big cities in Europe you will not get good rental returns for the investment because the market caters to locals. Norway has among the highest GDP (gross domestic product) in EUrope and the rent for a one bedroom apartment in the city centre is about 800 euro. The average square meter price in Oslo is 6000 euro.

The square meter price is much lower in Poland, yet you will not get good rental returns there either. It could however be a good investment for the future if you buy the apartment and plan to live there. I do not know what the rules are in Poland but in many countries residential cooperatives have rules against renting out apartments. The reason for this is that the other residents do not want that someone buys an apartment in the building and never lives there, instead renting it out to different strangers that come and go.

You also need to keep an eye on the people you rent out the apartment to. Another problem is the wear to the apartment that will most likely require you to renovate the apartment if you plan to sell it later or live there yourself. This means that the little net profit you gain after the administration fees and taxes are paid will have vanished.

There are some cities in Europe such as London, Geneva, Paris or Moscow where you can actually make a lot of money if you can afford to buy a suitable apartment to rent out. Outside Europe the most expensive rental markets are Hong Kong and Japan. I think if you do some research you will initially come to the conclusion that the most profitable buy-to-let markets in gross profit margin in relation to the price of the apartment are developing countries such as Brazil, which is the reason why I think it was prudent to include information on that topic. Finally, one of the most important things to know is that many countries have a high capital gains tax, meaning that this will eat away your gross profit margin.