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CZYNSZ - payment issue - help


Marko1968
17 Nov 2011  #1
Hello Everyone,

I have a CZYNSZ problem with the apartment I bought in 2006. It's a 1905 old building, my apartment is situated on the 2nd floor (60m2). I paid CZYNSZ 109 PZL per month in 2006 and 2007.

I never lived in that apartment, it is empty and I use it just once or twice per year (weekend or week holidays).
Since 2008 I have not paid any CZYNSZ as the building administrator (who is also 60% building owner) confirmed that I do not need to pay anything because the apartment is empty.

However, today I received a mail with the info that I own the CZYNSZ for the last 2.5 years!

What are my rights in this situation? Paying the outstanding amount for 2.5 years is the only solution?
Should I bring this case to the Court?

Thanks in advance for your ideas and help tips!
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Nov 2011  #2
Since 2008 I have not paid any CZYNSZ as the building administrator (who is also 60% building owner) confirmed that I do not need to pay anything because the apartment is empty.

if you are an owner of an appartment but not the owner of the building the owner of the building still can charge you with the czynsz as far as I know - it does not matter if you use the appartment or not - it can perhaps be regulated with legal agreement btw you and an owner/administrator of the building - still I may be wrong on that - wait for other people to answer you
Wedle 16 | 496
17 Nov 2011  #3
However, today I received a mail with the info that I own the CZYNSZ for the last 2.5 years!

Normally you would pay CZYNSZ monthly as a part of the money is also for the upkeep of the building. It is not taken into consideration you live there or not otherwise 90% of Poland would not pay CZYNSZ.

109 PZL per month seems very cheap - where is your apartment which city. Normally in Warsaw it would be 8- 14 PLN per m2. each month
OP Marko1968
17 Nov 2011  #4
Apartment is in Kazimierz (Krakow). That's ok, I understand that. But cannot understand that I need to pay for bins (I am not using), cleaning of the stairs in the hallway and corridor (I am not using), for no renovation carried out!

It seems that the only solution is: to sell my Kazimierz apartment and buy somewhere else in Europe... and leave your man with his 2.5 year bill!
grubas 12 | 1,391
17 Nov 2011  #5
But cannot understand that I need to pay for bins (I am not using), cleaning of the stairs in the hallway and corridor (I am not using), for no renovation carried out!

You are 7 y/o or what?Czynsz is just like condo fees,you pay it regardless.
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
17 Nov 2011  #6
The czynsz payment in Poland is a real Rip off and it should be more transparent for flat owners because i have the feeling it is the reign of the arbitrary.

I pay a lot a czyncz for my flat too every month and i never got the entire details ,normally everthing is based on the size of our flats and rationally divided between owners and based the year budget which is voted per year but i never got to see what the other owners are paying and it might aswell go into the pocket of a building manager because i don't know how much she is paying for the building water,salary for the cleaner etc.

Whether you live there 1 day per year or all year long ,it does not make any difference, you'll need to pay for all the building maintenance fees and share with all the other co owners but your numbers for water should be very small.Check the meter and ask as many official documents as possible (Building electricity bill etc), your fee seems indeed very small. How many square meters do you have?
Wedle 16 | 496
17 Nov 2011  #7
It seems that the only solution is: to sell my Kazimierz apartment and buy somewhere else in Europe... and leave your man with his 2.5 year bill!

Marko you are caught between a rock and a hard stone.When they do a search on your property before they pay you, they will realise there is money owed. Deal falls down. You have no option but to pay or negotiate it into the price of the sale.

CZYNSZ is not poll tax, its owners contribution, the only way not to pay it s to rent out and pass on the cost to the tenant.
scottie1113 7 | 898
17 Nov 2011  #8
Czynsz is a part of life if you own a flat in Poland whether you live in it or not. Period
grubas 12 | 1,391
17 Nov 2011  #9
You are very wrong here.Flats owners can leave Spółdzielnia and start Wspólnota Mieszkaniowa then there is no czynsz.
Wedle 16 | 496
17 Nov 2011  #10
grubas, we are talking about an Irish guy here, that does not speak Polish nor does he live in Poland.
scottie1113 7 | 898
17 Nov 2011  #11
I stand by my post. Are you in Poland?
OP Marko1968
17 Nov 2011  #12
This is ok body... the issue is with the ******* Polish 'scumbag' who is trying to get a max of money from me! We had a gentleman agreement and I asked him at least twice about the CZYNSZ payment!!
grubas 12 | 1,391
17 Nov 2011  #13
Are you in Poland?

I am not but my mother is and she left Spółdzielnia not long time ago.As far as I know majority of owners has to agree.Funny thing is that one of my mother's naighbours is a prezes of mentioned Spółdzielnia and she didn't want to leave but she had to because majority of owners wanted to.
OP Marko1968
17 Nov 2011  #14
Thank Wedle!

Thanks LwowskaKrakow - Apartment 60m2
Wedle 16 | 496
17 Nov 2011  #15
Thank Wedle!

No worries, good luck with it all.
OP Marko1968
17 Nov 2011  #16
Look, the building owner has a majority and owns 60% of the building. His was also Administrator of the building.
So, if I understand correctly whatever he decides he will get!
Now, his son will be the administrator of the building... Why should I (other owners) pay the young fella for administration of the building??
There is nothing done in relation to the building! It's clean but nothing special (China standard maybe)... and in total there are 6-8 owners but all of us represent only 40%.

You spoke about starting 'Wspólnota Mieszkaniowa' but how can you get there without having the 51 % ???

I think, I will go to the Court and based on the fact that I have not received any invoices for the CZYNSZ and I had a 'gentleman agreement' in relation to no payment!

Also, new Administrator without experience should not be paid full salary! In this case, I will try to speak with my Embassy to help me (find a good Solicitor). The 'f..... scumbag' will suffer!!!
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Nov 2011  #17
You spoke about starting 'Wspólnota Mieszkaniowa' but how can you get there without having the 51 % ???

I don't think you can create a Wspólnota mieszkaniowa if you own a flat in a privately owned building - it is possible for 'Spółdzielnias' - they are sort of cooperatives after all

will try to speak with my Embassy to help me (find a good Solicitor). The 'f..... scumbag' will suffer!!!

It's not worth it - I don't believe you will get a free legal help from your embassy - and hiring a solicitor in Poland will cost you more than what you are demanded from in the form of the outstanding czynsz
Wedle 16 | 496
17 Nov 2011  #18
We had a gentleman agreement and I asked him at least twice about the CZYNSZ payment!!

This is the point Poles laugh at us Irish and Brits, the place we come from there is such thing as a handshake and agreement. Polish society is without honor in this respect, if it is not in a contract and signed by both parties, it never happened. NEVER do anything in Poland without a signed contract preferably notarised otherwise you will get fcuked sooner or later. Don't waste you money on lawyers in this case Marko1968 you are the guilty party by law(Polish). The only thing you can do is send them a letter and inform them you will address the issue in a meeting with the old man and son during your next visit which will be on....

Obviously when you get in the meeting try and nail the old man down in front of his son in a non aggressive and respectful manner.
scottie1113 7 | 898
17 Nov 2011  #19
Sound advice from Wedle. Listen to the man.
grubas 12 | 1,391
17 Nov 2011  #20
you are the guilty party by law(Polish)

What do you mean partly?Ignorance is not an excuse.He should have asked for a WRITTEN confirmation and he did not.I highly doubt he is saying the truth because as hard as I am trying to, I can not imagine a landlord or building administration giving up czynsz because he lives there only a week or whatever a year.Must have been misunderstanding and this is why one should always ask for written agreement.
Wedle 16 | 496
17 Nov 2011  #21
What do you mean partly?Ignorance is not an excuse

If he was Polish he would have been ignorant in this situation, the fact he is a foreigner he was too trusting.

.He should have asked for a WRITTEN confirmation and he did not.

Well he knows that now, as I previously mentioned he was too trusting.

I highly doubt he is saying the truth because as hard as I am trying to

Thats because you are Polish and Polish people never believe anyone is telling the truth.

I can not imagine a landlord or building administration giving up czynsz because he lives there only a week or whatever a year

I would agree here.

Must have been misunderstanding and this why one should always ask for something "on paper".

Whenever a Pole tells me its a miss understanding I know he/she is trying to shaft me. THere is no such thing as miss understanding in Poland, it is either fcuk someone or be fcuked, thats the mental of Poles unfortunately.

grubas, the one point you did not raise is that the poor landlord is only Polish and Marko should pay him the money because he is from a rich western country. Give me a break, you know the rules in Poland 'grubas' just like I do. Who is kidding who.

Here is my spin, the old man made an agreement with Marko, as soon as the son becomes the administrator he notices that there is a bit of red ink in the books, now he wants to flex his polish muscles at the foreigner so he calculates the outstanding to the grosze and smiles all the way to the Post office. This is a Father and son issue not Marko's.
Mike1968
18 Nov 2011  #22
Guys, thanks a lot for your advise!

Just received a mail from the father with an official text, now I need to pay nearly 6K!!!
Are you sure there is nothing to do in this case???

Your man had my address, my mobile, my email, my Skype address (I was very friendly with his son over the past 3-4 years). I cannot even believe this is happening...

My basement was robbed (1000 euro worth wine), a couple of years ago...
The roof was leaking, then since I have yellow water marks on the ceiling...
Never one world about those issues to those 'scumbags'... but now I am paying for my friendliness!

Only one thing I want, to sell my apartment and get out of this 3rd world country!!

data wystawienia: 17-11-2011

wystawca:
xxx

Monit Wezw/xxx

Z przykrością informujemy, że do dnia dzisiejszego nie stwierdziliśmy wpływu na nasz rachunek bankowy należnej nam kwoty 5.559,00 zł. Prosimy o sprawdzenie, czy dokonali Państwo wpłaty.

Dotyczy: wezwanie 1/2011
Termin płatności upłynął: 17 listopada 2011 (dziś)
Kwota należności głównej: 6.159,00 zł, dotychczas zapłacono 600,00 zł
Razem do zapłaty: 5.559,00 zł (słownie: pięć tysięcy pięćset pięćdziesiąt dziewięć 00/100)
Numer konta: xxx
Prosimy o uiszczenie należności w terminie 7 dni od dnia otrzymania niniejszego wezwania. Uchroni to Państwa przed dokuczliwymi działaniami windykacyjnymi.

Podpis i pieczęć wystawcy:
xxx

Zaległość jest naliczona od maja 2007r do grudnia 2011r.
Wpłacono 600zł w kwietniu 2007, za pierwszye półrocze 2007r.

Rozliczenia w załącznikach 3szt.
scottie1113 7 | 898
18 Nov 2011  #23
this 3rd world country!!

It's not a third world country. You just don't understand how business is conducted here. And this is my last reply to you until you bother to register.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
18 Nov 2011  #24
gentlemen agreement nor the ladies agreement don't exist in Poland. My take is: the owners are experiencing some financial problems.

Sell the apartment since I can only see the situation worsening in regards to the building.

Or, perhaps they have a buyer and want you out of the building - nasty way of doing it.

It's not a third world country.

it that respect it often is scottie.
wielki pan 2 | 250
18 Nov 2011  #25
Sell the apartment since I can only see the situation worsening in regards to the building

What kind of advice is this, CZYNSZ is paid in all common apartments and our friend grubas has correctly explained the other options... czynsz covers maintenence, repair to outside of the building, and in some instances heating... it doesn't matter if you live in the apartment or not you are liable for czynsz....
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
18 Nov 2011  #26
it is a realistic advice, the guy had a gentlemen agreement. Did you miss it?

to the OP. Pay the czynsz and get out. Otherwise they will drag you through courts. It is NOT worse the trouble, unless you have some way of talking to these guys instead of posting on forums. Deal with them in a polite way - since you have had good relationship with them in the past.
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
18 Nov 2011  #27
So, if I understand correctly whatever he decides he will get!

No the owner or administrator has to provide official invoices for the building expenses he wants you to pay because your cszyncz depends on the amounts of these official bills divided by your M2, let(s say if the total square meters of the buidling is 1000 M2 each co owners share the bills expenses;

In front of the court, only official bills can be taken into account , not simply what the Buidling admninistrator writes,if he pays the cleaner under the table or makes you pay more than what you should pay or makes you pay for wrong square meters it is illegal.

However given the way Justice is administrated in Poland and how consumers are protected i doubt you would win but the Building administrator has to provide you with all the official documents + bills so just send him a registered letter asking for those official bills in Polish via a lawyer and your payments can drag on forever until he has provided all proof of the buidling expenses.

If you register i may PM you/ recommend you a Krakow Polish lawyer, she is nice and honest.
mafketis 20 | 7,182
18 Nov 2011  #28
the guy had a gentlemen agreement. Did you miss it?

There's no such thing in Polish law and a person is responsible for czynsz even if they never set foot in the apartment.

Buying an apartment in another country when you

- don't know the language, or

- don't know the culture, or

- dont' know the legal system (in terms of basic principles)

is not a particularly clever thing to do.

When things dont work out as planned calling the country third world might make you temporarily feel better, but what's really third world is getting into situations that you don't understand sufficiently and assuming legal principles from your own culture will apply.

Ethically the buidling administrator might be scum but legally he's in the right and the OP is in the wrong (from what has been written here).
Mike1968
18 Nov 2011  #29
Mafketis: I disagree with your comments!

Had many problems since own this apartment... non-understandable electricity payments, 'remont' - and people leaving in the middle of the work carried out, neighbors calling and writing letters because you take a shower after 10pm! You can only have a Polish solution for a Polish problem! Another World!

'Prosimy o uiszczenie należności w terminie 7 dni od dnia otrzymania niniejszego wezwania. Uchroni to Państwa przed dokuczliwymi działaniami windykacyjnymi'.[i][/i]

If I understand correctly, he is giving me 7 days to pay... and for 5 years I have not hear from him (no invoices)??

I have another apartment in Germany, I have not touch it since Management Company is looking after... never had any issues there.

Guys, as you said , I will be looking to sell ASAP, and get out of there... Thanks a lot for your advises.
mafketis 20 | 7,182
18 Nov 2011  #30
You can only have a Polish solution for a Polish problem! Another World!

It is the normal case that the laws of a given country govern real estate disagreements, not the culture/law of a foreign buyer.

Again, ethically and morally you may be completely in the right, but you don't have the law on your side. I'm not even sure if it's legal to wave czynsz payments (unless the owner picks them up, which why would he do that?)

Your best bet is paying up and selling off or if you want to run a delaying action ask for the bills (and register to take lwowskakrakow up on her offer).

I have not touch it since Management Company is looking after... never had any issues there.

They do that for free? Wow, what nice people!


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