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Polish teenager pregnant after rape - A recent result to an older story


Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
30 Oct 2012 #1
bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20143558

"A Polish teenager who became pregnant after rape should have had unhindered access to an abortion, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled."
Bieganski 17 | 901
30 Oct 2012 #2
Court ordered fines and restitution in such cases do well to alert institutions that they need to be objective and professional in their dealings with the public. But unless the law changes to allow on demand access, and possibly the entrenched practitioners and administrators too, it is possible there will be a future recurrence like this.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
31 Oct 2012 #3
Wroclaw,I agree with that myself.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
31 Oct 2012 #4
Which part do you agree with?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
31 Oct 2012 #5
SeanBM,that the girl should have had unhindered access.
Lenka 3 | 1,441
31 Oct 2012 #6
Agreed.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
31 Oct 2012 #7
that the girl should have had unhindered access.

I'm glad I asked, I totally got the wrong end of the stick.

They were clearly breaking the law.

Abortion in Poland is banned except in the following three circumstances.
When the woman's life or health is endangered by the continuation of pregnancy,
When the pregnancy is a result of a criminal act, or
When the fetus is seriously malformed

Lenka 3 | 1,441
31 Oct 2012 #8
They were clearly breaking the law.

Right.It was also sadistic and inhumane.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
31 Oct 2012 #9
SeanBM,I'm just saying that I agree with what the court has said.I would rather that a woman opt for life,but I absolutely cannot fault a woman for wanting to abort in that circumstance.I think that she should be able to have that say.Not that they were wrong for hindering her in the legal sense at the time,as it would be breaking the law..
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
31 Oct 2012 #10
It was also sadistic and inhumane.

Certainly the anti-abortion lot can be called that. The hospital staff can be called cowards, too.

By all means be against abortion, but don't make it personal. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if I was to stand otuside their elderly father's house and call him a collaborating Communist ****, would they?
kondzior 9 | 951
1 Nov 2012 #11
Fallow all EUrope fashions: free abortion, zoophilia and pedophile marriages and then import 3 millions of Muslims to rape and pillage at will... err... I mean fill the gaps in workforce. What can possibly go wrong with this? Poland already has demographic problem thanks to Gaulaiter Tusk genius idea to make us into second Ireland and push all young people into emigration. All we need is more Librul medecine.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
1 Nov 2012 #12
Yes yes. We understand that it's time for your medicine.
polonius 54 | 420
1 Nov 2012 #13
How can one reconcile the right to an abortion (allowed under Polish law in the case of rape or incest) to a doctor's right to invoke the conscience clause? Doctor's who regard abortion as the murder of an unborn child have the right to refuse to perform them. What happens if no conscience-less doctor can be found in a given hospital?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
1 Nov 2012 #14
Doctors who are employed as public workers have no right to object to performing medical procedures. If we give them the right, where does it stop? Do we allow them to refuse to carry out certain operations such as blood transfusions on religious grounds?

Incidentally, it's often not about themselves, but rather their safety.
kondzior 9 | 951
1 Nov 2012 #15
If we give them the right, where does it stop?

Where to stop? What about "First, do not harm"?
Law cannot force a doctor to commit murder. Even the pagans saw evil in that(see the original Hippocratic oath and its prohibition of abortion).

The duty of a physician is to heal the sick and restore the health of the ailing. It is a profession fit for a man of faith. No wonder so many saints were physicians(Saint Luke, Saint Cosmas, Saint Damian, Saint Pantaleon, etc).

The decline in professional ethics is due to the decadence of western civilization itself, not due to anything wrong with the profession.
AntV 1 | 27
1 Nov 2012 #16
Doctors who are employed as public workers have no right to object to performing medical procedures.

Are you saying that if a doctor determines that a certain procedure will cause harm or death to patient, yet that patient wants that certain procedure, a doctor has no right to object to performing that certain procedure? This is hard to believe. It is also hard to believe that any conscionable and ethical person would want to become a doctor under these circumstances.

Let's assume what you say is, in fact, accurate. I have to assume that the grounds of not allowing a doctor to object to performing medical procedures is for the ultimate health of the patient. Regardless if your against or for abortion, the reality is that the procedure results in the death of a human. Even the pro-abortion side has put aside the argument that it isn't the killing of human life; it's why they argue from the point of it being an individual's choice. So, this isn't about saving life, but about taking life. How is this procedure, then, about the health of the patient (and abortions that are performed for the protection of the life of the mother are so rare they barley register statistically)? Or, is this restriction not about the health of the patient, but some other variable?
kondzior 9 | 951
1 Nov 2012 #17
Also

Incidentally, it's often not about themselves, but rather their safety

I thought that we are talking about Poland here, not the USA? Killing off doctors for commiting an abortion is purely American custom.
AntV 1 | 27
1 Nov 2012 #20
Habitual practice?

Kondzior, the habitual practice of pro-lifers in the US is to pray in front of abortion clinics. If my memory serves me right, there have been 4 abortion-performing doctors killed (at least in the last 25 years). Granted, four too many, but it's hardly an epidemic, custom, or habit.
polonius 54 | 420
1 Nov 2012 #21
Typical skewed and biased PC mentality. The abortion seeker has rights, the doctor whose conscience would be violated is deprived of them.
The precursor of today's PC hypocrisy was George Orwell with his poignant: Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
Ant63 11 | 403
1 Nov 2012 #22
But there is such a thing as basic human rights which Poland is constantly being dragged through the European courts for violating. Someone, sooner rather than later, should drag the RC Church through as well.
AntV 1 | 27
1 Nov 2012 #23
Are you saying abortion is a basic human right?
Lenka 3 | 1,441
1 Nov 2012 #24
Even the pro-abortion side has put aside the argument that it isn't the killing of human life

For me, in the first period, it's just a cell.Every month I'm throwing out something that someday may be a human being.

The duty of a physician is to heal the sick and restore the health of the ailing.

That's right and what about the women right not to be killed during childbirth?

yet that patient wants that certain procedure,

Women cannot decide.The governmenty does-in some situations.Why should the life on unborn child was more important than the life of the mother?

Do we allow them to refuse to carry out certain operations such as blood transfusions on religious grounds?

To some extend.Example with blood transfusion is pretty good.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
1 Nov 2012 #25
To some extend.Example with blood transfusion is pretty good.

Plenty of other examples - for instance, a Muslim refusing to interrupt his prayer time to attend to a desperately ill patient. All in the name of "religious conscience".

The abortion seeker has rights, the doctor whose conscience would be violated is deprived of them.

The doctor has the right not to work there. He also has the right not to take public money for his education.
Ant63 11 | 403
1 Nov 2012 #26
Are you really thinking clearly about this or is religion so far up your rear that you think its fine to force this child through pregnancy and childbearing. On abortion, I have to say, your religion stinks. Try thinking for yourself and having a little compassion for others in a bad place.

All this holier than thou crap on here stinks. You RC nutters are fighting a losing battle. The times they are a changin.

Are you saying abortion is a basic human right?

Did I say that? No so you have your answer before you asked a dumb question.
AntV 1 | 27
1 Nov 2012 #27
AntV: Are you saying abortion is a basic human right?Did I say that? No so you have your answer before you asked a dumb question.

Then what are you talking about? And who brought up anything about religion? I sure didn't! Frankly, I wish my fellow pro-lifers would argue our point strictly within a scientific and philosophical framework. Heck, even before my religion got so far up my rear, I changed my view on abortion through Biology and philosophy.

So, Ant63, do us a favor and keep religion out of this ;)

Out of curiosity ( with hopes of having a constructive discussion), what do you understand basic human rights to be? [And, if that's a dumb question, I beg your gracious pardon]
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
1 Nov 2012 #28
I changed my view on abortion through Biology

You certainly didn't, otherwise you'd know all about the harm done by teenage pregnancies.
AntV 1 | 27
1 Nov 2012 #29
Plenty of other examples - for instance, a Muslim refusing to interrupt his prayer time to attend to a desperately ill patient. All in the name of "religious conscience".

And, he should be dismissed/sued/whatever because he refuses to care for someone who is sick. Being pregnant may be unwanted, but it's not an illness. So, to equate that with someone going to an emergency room while in the middle of cardiac arrest isn't in the same thing.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,719
1 Nov 2012 #30
So you agree that he should also be fired for failing to carry out an abortion when the woman's life is in danger?


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