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Russian air traffic controllers ignored communication protocol of Polish pilots?


Havok 10 | 903
13 Apr 2010 #121
I believe that majority of Poles have forgiven. They were certainly able to forgive the Germans.

So, in this respect, it truly isn't about living in the past at all.

Here you are again... Finlay came to senses? I'm so proud of you. :) See, our conversation wasn't a total waste of time.

Take care my brother.
Filios1 8 | 1,336
13 Apr 2010 #122
The fact remains is that why a skilled pilot could make such a obvious mistake

Skilled pilot was only 36 years old, and just over 3000 hours flying experience.The other 3 crew members were 34, 35, and 36 I believe.
I don't understand why they had such a young crew on board. There should have been at least 2 crew members over the age of 55, with over 10000 hours flying experience. Would have been better to take pilots from the domestic airline, if need be. I'm sorry, but you simply can't argue that a 36 year old has seen, lived through, flown through more, than a 55+ year old veteran.
vionescu1961 - | 9
13 Apr 2010 #123
Usually, I avoid to speculate on a topic, even if sometimes I express vague. But I have my own views regarding the Russians.
Anyway, such case will not be clarified rigorously without analyzing flight protocols were followed by the both sides (Polish and Russian). Besides, an inquiry must run on the rules or protocols that Polish officials and Polish secret services have applied (if they are wrong) or have not complied. Instead of Polish authorities I would call an investigator from the US National Transportation Safety Board. Maybe, the Polish Government will do it.

Regarding the Presidential airplane, I don't know what to add. Last year, we had the same public debate/scandal on a future public procurement for a new presidential airplane. The decision was postponed. So, the President still uses the same Boeing 707, made in 1974 (was adapted for Ceausescu's needs). The airplane is very old, but it still works without any technical problem. The Romanian political leaders avoided Russian airplanes (also the civil fleet followed the same pattern) even thought they are good, perhaps. This year, a new Boeing shall be acquired for the President.
wildrover 98 | 4,436
13 Apr 2010 #124
The fact remains is that why a skilled pilot could make such a obvious mistake?

Thousands of air crashes all over the world have been caused by skilled pilots making mistakes....why should it be so difficult to accept a Polish pilot could make a mistake....?
convex 20 | 3,928
13 Apr 2010 #125
with over 10000 hours flying experience.

Which is about the same amount of hours that Scott Turner, Commander of Air Force One, had when he took over that job. Interestingly enough, he's just a bit older than the pilot on the Polish presidential flight. Usually air force staff get moved into a management role after 40-45. Remember that commercial is where most people go after the retire from the service. People like Gen. Jumper of the USAF has just over 5000 hours. Interestingly enough, the statistics on fatalities vs. flight hours graphs out to a curve with the first 500 being the highest, then it troughs, and at around 6000 hours, it begins to increase again.
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
13 Apr 2010 #126
why should it be so difficult to accept a Polish pilot could make a mistake....?

And this is why I don't believe Polish-Russian relations will improve - those who are inclined to believe that the pilot couldn't make a mistake are the same ones who will blame Russia.
jonni 16 | 2,476
13 Apr 2010 #127
the same ones who will blame Russia.

The important thing is to make all data and information open and available, for the sake of truth and to minimise conspiracies. There are always those who will actively disbelieve the data but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Olga 1 | 330
13 Apr 2010 #128
Latest information about investigation (must read): naszdziennik.pl/index.php?dat=20100413&typ=tk&id=tk05.txt
peterweg 37 | 2,309
13 Apr 2010 #129
Latest information about investigation (must read):

Certainly the Russians are jumping the gun with claiming there was no technical issue with the plane and the claim that they didn't understand Russia is suspect becuase they could have been very busy dealing with a problem and finding the airport so speaking to ATC could have been a low priority.

But the fact is they attempted to land in fog after being warned not too and were aware that there was no ILS - thats not a the Russians fault.
Harry
13 Apr 2010 #130
Latest information about investigation (must read):

Yes, always interesting to read what ultra-Catholic bigots have to say. And always good for a laugh too.
dworzecentralny
13 Apr 2010 #131
naszdziennik

Not a newspaper known for common sense or moderate views
DannyJ - | 129
13 Apr 2010 #132
Thousands of air crashes all over the world have been caused by skilled pilots making mistakes....why should it be so difficult to accept a Polish pilot could make a mistake....?

God forbid, A polish Pilot making a mistake! Go wash your mouth out with soap.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,819
13 Apr 2010 #133
thenews.pl/national/artykul129411_black-boxes-reveal-two-landing-attempts--not-four.html

Black boxes reveal two landing attempts, not four

Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,819
13 Apr 2010 #135
It can't be long now anymore till they publish the findings and transcripts from the boxes...then we will know!
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,228
13 Apr 2010 #136
Yepp it can't be long until then
(it was zhe Gerrys fault I know it ;p)
convex 20 | 3,928
13 Apr 2010 #137
Here's an image of the crash site.

I wonder if that's the antenna that was clipped at the bottom. It's definately not lined up with the runway. Maybe it hit the antenna and veered off?
Seanus 15 | 19,670
13 Apr 2010 #138
Let the press try and distort. Russia learned from 9/11 that, despite the evidence against the official line, people still continued to debate and debate without reaching definitive conclusions. We reach ones that are satisfactory to our own research and deliberations but without facts to the satisfaction of either side. Russia did exactly what America did by invading another country (though they came out quickly).

That paper was so biased, it's incredible. Both sides haven't given their fullest accounts so how can we jump to conclusions so quickly? I only really became interested in 9/11 around 2007 when a lot of material was available. I suggest others wait before telling the story here.
Velund 1 | 562
14 Apr 2010 #139
usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-04-13-fog-plane-crash-poland_N.htm

The Polish jet that crashed short of a runway in fog, killing that nation's president and other top leaders, was equipped with a safety device that warns pilots when they get too close to the ground, the device's manufacturer said Tuesday.

The existence of the device deepens the mystery of why the jet struck woods and exploded as pilots attempted to land Saturday at a Russian military airport, aviation safety experts said. If the safety device was working properly, it would be the first such crash of an aircraft equipped with the system since its introduction in the late 1990s.
Wawel - | 14
14 Apr 2010 #140
What is so difficult in understanding "NYET", especially to a Pole.
Seanus 15 | 19,670
14 Apr 2010 #141
Some Poles may not get it. Even sth as simple as that
z_darius 14 | 3,960
14 Apr 2010 #142
What is so difficult in understanding "NYET", especially to a Pole.

But there was no NYET (нет). By the looks of it there was "nye" (не).
Seanus 15 | 19,670
14 Apr 2010 #143
They were told before not to fly there and that's the end of story. The Minsk authorities were prepared to take the plane and then they could have received other transport. It was very badly organised and such trips should never be hurried.
ekidan
14 Apr 2010 #144
> no pilot has ignored a TAWS warning

TAWS = eGPWS/GPWS, probably mandatory on this category of transport.

MANY, many pilots have ignored a GPWS - this is a completely misleading statement (although arguably no plane has been lost to an extended (e)GPWS). Whether the TU-154M had an eGPWS I really can't say.

This accident looks like a CFIT - i.e. the plane flew into the ground under the control of the crew with no mechanical failure.

It has happened to British, Spanish, German, US.. you name it aircraft... so simply add Polish to that list I suspect.
Olga 1 | 330
14 Apr 2010 #145
the plane flew into the ground under the control of the crew with no mechanical failure.

Or under control of air tower.
f stop 24 | 2,499
14 Apr 2010 #146
no pilot has ignored a TAWS warning

He knew he was coming in very close to the ground, he just didn't know how close.
ekidan
14 Apr 2010 #147
Olga

This is unlikely as the aircraft GPWS (Ground Proximity Warning System) is independent of anything else.

Pilots routinely ignore a GPWS alert on an approach if they can visually see the runway for instance - this may have happened in this case.

I suspect the Russians were completely blameless in this case and it will be shown they acted properly. I have spent many years living in Russia (Moscow) and know many Russians and they are just like Polish people - warm and friendly - humans! OK... they are different in many ways but I think you understand what I am trying to say. They are not bad people.
Havok 10 | 903
15 Apr 2010 #148
He knew he was coming in very close to the ground, he just didn't know how close.

LMAO
f stop 24 | 2,499
15 Apr 2010 #149
The pilot was there 3 days earlier scoping out the terrain, then on the day of the crash he circled around enough times to get his bearings, he already knew if he diverted he'll probably get a medal... I think he just went for it. All I still want to know is why he was not aware of true altitude.
Olga 1 | 330
15 Apr 2010 #150
Instrument failure, most likely, as illustrated by fuel dumping. This would explain the false report of repeated landing attempts, when in fact he was likely circling in order to dump fuel to prevent explosion on impact. You cannot dump fuel and keep on flying--landing was attempted only once. The pilot knew they are in deep s**t, and this was a last-ditch desperate attempt to survive crash landing. Aviation 101.


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