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Russian air traffic controllers ignored communication protocol of Polish pilots?


Seanus 15 | 19,670
12 Apr 2010 #31
And what of the theory that Russia had sth planted in the forest to wreak havoc with the operating systems of the plane? I don't know too much about aviation so I will reserve judgement.

I know that remote control tech is big business. There is much advanced tech that laymen like me don't fully grasp.
convex 20 | 3,928
12 Apr 2010 #32
And what of the theory that Russia had sth planted in the forest to wreak havoc with the operating systems of the plane? I don't know too much about aviation so I will reserve judgement.

Occam's razor. The people posting there are pilots (for the most part), and everyone is coming to the same conclusion with the facts that are available.

Here's an interesting tidbit... The plane crashed to the east of the airport, everyone has been saying that it crashed on approach. Wind was reported out of the east, so either it crashed after flying over the runway, or it was landing with the wind (not normal).
Seanus 15 | 19,670
12 Apr 2010 #33
independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vip-syndrome-and-pilot-error-blamed-for-crash-1942116.html

this is the most up-to-date article I think

Well worth a read. It's probably my broadsheet of choice from the UK. The angle was horrible and all witnesses confirm this. Why didn't he keep it horizontal?
convex 20 | 3,928
12 Apr 2010 #34
Well worth a read. It's probably my broadsheet of choice from the UK. The angle was horrible and all witnesses confirm this. Why didn't he keep it horizontal?

very interested to hear what transpired in the cockpit...
wildrover 98 | 4,436
12 Apr 2010 #35
Why didn't he keep it horizontal?

I have heard one report ( Russian ) that suggests the aircraft lost part of a wing after hitting the trees , and may even have hit a radar antenna before the trees....

If you lose part of a wing on an aircraft , you will lose some of the lift that this wing provides , and this may account for the aircraft being seen with the left wing dipped towards the ground....
OP Evalina 1 | 5
12 Apr 2010 #36
From what I understand, he returned to Warsaw on the 7th.

You are absolutely right. I thought you all knew... Kaczynski and the rest wasn't invited to the ceremony even though he wanted very much. He and other flew anyway to pay respect and paid the highest price.
ronald reagan 1
12 Apr 2010 #37
how about tusk and putin being best friends or tusk not on the flight
Eurola 4 | 1,900
12 Apr 2010 #38
Kaczynski and Tusk did not like each other and that's put mildly, I hear.
moya kochana - | 1
12 Apr 2010 #39
This will be crew error. Russian ATC had no complicity.
People holding with conspiracy theory, it is all "govno".
z_darius 14 | 3,960
12 Apr 2010 #40
Although local languages are sometimes used in ATC communications, the default language of aviation worldwide is English. Controllers who do not speak this as a first language are generally expected to show a certain minimum level of competency with the language.

So the president of Poland is flying to Smolensk. They pick a pilot who speaks English (Fcuk the Russians. They must speak English to us. Period). The plane approaches the airport and says to the Russian traffic controller:

Pilot: Hi, do you speak English?
Controller: Nye ponimayu
Pilot: Cut the crap man!
Controller:shto?
Pilot - o kurwa! A ja myslalem ze w Rosji to po angieklsu mowia.
(oh s.h.it, I thought they spoke English in Russia)

SeanBM 35 | 5,793
12 Apr 2010 #41
vip-syndrome-and- pilot- error-blamed-for-crash-1942116.html,

Interesting, thank you for that.
Crow 160 | 9,195
12 Apr 2010 #42
People holding with conspiracy theory, it is all "govno".

if i may suggest. Forget all ideas and `conspiracy theories`. Just follow mega and micro trends. Meaning, some action always cause some reaction, behind everything are interests and those interests push as to move. Just go back and follow traces of some event and things becoming clear. Sometimes, things happening accidentally but, it is very rare and when happen just confirming the rule that interests stays behind everything
Jed - | 165
12 Apr 2010 #43
Polish pilots flying our president had trouble with understanding air traffic controllers who ignored international protocol and instead of English used Russian.

Evalina, this "airport" is actually a former military airbase closed in October last year.

Frankly, I would prefer those controllers to speak their native language instead of English they never spoke...

I just wonder how many unprecedented things happened at once - starting from the old plane full of VIPs and ending this old airport not ready for any trouble landing...
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
12 Apr 2010 #44
I just learned that Polish pilots flying our president had trouble with understanding air traffic controllers who ignored international protocol and instead of English used Russian.

This is exactly what i first thought when i heard about the tragedy , i immediately thought about a deficit in language communication and understanding since in Russia air traffic controllers do not get any English language training , not sure about the Polish pilots 's knowledge of English either.

What a terrible conjonction of multiple factors:Key members of the government flying all together in a 20 year old soviet plane, fog and weather conditions ,not speaking or understanding a common language.

When I am on a non English speaking country flight i very seldom understand the flight attendants' blabla in English( apart from Scandinavian crews) because their local accent is so strong and as most people I just tune out so if I can easily imagine the chaos in a situation of emergency...
convex 20 | 3,928
12 Apr 2010 #45
This is exactly what i first thought when i heard about the tragedy , i immediately thought about a deficit in language communication and understanding since in Russia air traffic controllers do not get any English language training , not sure about the Polish pilots 's knowledge of English either.

Russian civilian ATC speak great English. They receive training, and are tested on their proficiency.

Russian military ATC is conducted in Russian.

Moscow Approach, have a listen and compare the controllers level of English to that of the pilots they're speaking to...
Seanus 15 | 19,670
12 Apr 2010 #46
You are welcome, Seanny. I'm looking for sources with no axes to grind and The Independent is one of those.

I hope the Polish phrase 'ma być tak zrobiony' wasn't used here. Common sense should prevail. A flight landed one hour before LK's but, in the following half hour it got progressively cloudier, thus diminishing visibility. One had already been diverted and followed the advice of those whose job it is to guide.

Nobody on that plane would have wanted to commit suicide so the conspiracy theories are dealt a heavy blow by it. Pilots make mistakes.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,230
12 Apr 2010 #47
Look, air traffic control warned them many times to not land. They were told to stay up or go to another airport. Can you prove Russian negligence here or are you just stirring?

You can't warn a pilot not to land. You close the airport to tell people to not land. When the airport is open, it is like telling you: you are allowed to land, if you judge your plane able to land.

Have you ever stopped your car in front of a bridge where they warn you: "We advise you not to go beyond this point. This bridge may collapse!" ? You get another message instead: STOP! THIS BRIDGE IS CLOSED!
Seanus 15 | 19,670
12 Apr 2010 #48
Yes, you can warn a pilot not to land and that's the whole point, Ziemowit. It was considered as a largely defunct airport and one to be used at your own peril. Yes, some aircraft choose to use it from time to time but they are no doubt aware of the attendant risks. I didn't say he was ordered in martial fashion. He was advised but saw fit to pay no heed to it. The same as 9/11 and all the multiple warnings there.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,230
12 Apr 2010 #49
So warning pilots means telling them of the risk of landing. Byt then you cannot say: Didn't I tell them not to land? You only can say: I warned them of the risk of landing, and these two are completely different things.
Seanus 15 | 19,670
12 Apr 2010 #50
Exactly my point, Ziemowit. What can they do if the pilot refuses, gun the plane down? Most definitely not!!

They warned him according to Alyutoshin or whatever his name was in charge of air control. This is not like America where a plane can escort you. They were so close to the runway and had received multiple warnings (nie rozkazy, tylko rada).
from Russia
12 Apr 2010 #51
Here's Moscow Approach, have a listen and compare the controllers level of English to that of the pilots they're speaking to...

It is again mistake of pilotes.
1.Why did they go to Smolensk, knowing-a)air controller doesn't speak by English,
b)Smolensk airoport is so small.
If even they thought before starting that they can avoid these problems but why they couldn't take away from Smolensk? Why?
It is i think common Slav carelessness. but they carried so VIP persons and this carelessness couldn't take place. They have to check every small problem.

Really i think-it was real Vip person syndrom. And I was very much wondered that plane was in way when ceremonial already started... of course, it wasn't time to go to Minsk, Vitebsk and espessially to Moscow.

In Russia there is saying-''Will be hurry-will be funny for other people'. But it is not funny, unfortunatelly...
convex 20 | 3,928
12 Apr 2010 #52
So warning pilots means telling them of the risk of landing. Byt then you cannot say: Didn't I tell them not to land? You only can say: I warned them of the risk of landing, and these two are completely different things.

Is Smolensk controlled? I know they don't have a tower, but there is a small military presence at the airfield.

From what we know, ATC offered up Moscow as an alternate due to weather conditions. The crew told ATC they would try an approach (not unusual) and then head to Moscow if it they were unable to land...they ended up in the ditch. So the questions will be, what happened on that approach, what charts were they using, did GPWS go off, the QNH/QFE question from earlier.

The data recorder and the CVR were opened and inspected with Polish authorities, and the boxes were recovered with Polish participation. The chain of custody there is complete. There is talk that there wasn't anything off on the data recorder, lets see what the CVR tells us.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,230
12 Apr 2010 #53
Exactly my point, Ziemowit. What can they do if the pilot refuses, gun the plane down? Most definitely not!!

If the pilot refuses, he takes the risk of landing. But then you cannot say to the pilot, as you said they did,

They were told to stay up or go to another airport.

to stay up or go to another airport. And I'm not telling the control tower is to blamed for the crash, possibly another type of plane with the same pilot could have avoided the crash, but that is pure speculation. None of the people here are experts, including the Polish TV cited by Evalina, we should simply wait for the outcomes of the investigation.
peterweg 37 | 2,309
12 Apr 2010 #54
i'm sure the polish pilot understood russian.

He must have, to get type approval for the TU-154 you have be proficient in Russian
Wroclaw Boy
12 Apr 2010 #55
Your first line is BS, the second is spot on.

What makes you the all knowing expert?
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
12 Apr 2010 #56
I'd trust someone involved with aviation to have half a clue about aviation.
peterweg 37 | 2,309
12 Apr 2010 #57
From what we know, ATC offered up Moscow as an alternate due to weather conditions.

"Crashed Tu-154 crew offered three alternate airports Minsk and Vitebsk - as well as Moscow Vnukovo"

flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/11/340492/crashed-tu-154-crew-offered-three-alternate-airports.html

CVR and Flight recorder have complete data right to point of impact.
Wroclaw Boy
12 Apr 2010 #58
I'd trust someone involved with aviation to have half a clue about aviation.

Half a clue perhaps. He's speculating the accident based on probability and dismissing everything else as:

BS

convex 20 | 3,928
12 Apr 2010 #59
"Crashed Tu-154 crew offered three alternate airports Minsk and Vitebsk - as well as Moscow Vnukovo"

That's sad because Vitebsk wasn't all that far away. The press wouldn't have been good... Polish delegation arrives at Smolensk via marshrutka
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
12 Apr 2010 #60
He's speculating the accident based on probability and dismissing everything else as

That's because it most likely is. The crew had a decent amount of experience behind them (fair enough, nothing compared to civilian aviation, but the two disciplines are different), the aeroplane wasn't "old" (as I saw somewhere, there's still plenty of DC-9's flying round that aren't crashing) and Polish mentality may have had absolutely nothing to do with it.


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