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Restoring the Port of Elbląg?


jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #31
I believe I may know the answers, however it would provoke such a shetstorm that I have doubts about posting it. You may notice that cargo tonnage on PKP fell around the same time.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
26 Jun 2013 #32
Communism ended over 20 years ago.

But Chrsitian Humanism did not. Next to God, man is the most important, his welfare and that of his family. Don't you find it sickening that those who are doing well and lack nothing in the material realm coudl be so selfish and callous not to see the plight of their fellow-man and fail to extend their compassion, empathy and tangible assistance to those nto as well off? The people fo Poland B, C, £ ot Ż, who haev had no say in where they were born, may be far better people than those wallowing in luxury in some glittery apartamentowiec. That's why Poland deseprately needs PiS!

Why is it that 2005 (for most of the year, an SLD government) had quite high tonnage figures, then the figures collapsed in 2006 and 2007 during the PiS Government? Hmm...

What's the English word for poślizg (slide?). When President Obama or any other leader announces something it doesn't happen the next day. The huge, complex machinery of state and economy does not immediatley react to the push of a button. Many of the shortcomigns occuring during the all-too-brief glorious two years of the Fourth Republic had resulted from previous SLD blunders. And Poland will be suffering because of the PO's ill-considered measures long after the Platformers have been swept out of office.
jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #33
Chrsitian Humanism

I've nothing against that philosophy, but is it any basis on which to make economic decisions about redeveloping a near useless port? If you prefer Christian Socialism as the basis for economic decisions, you'll find that the philosophy impacts on so many areas of life. As I say - when proposing spending millions on an economic development, only the economics make sense. Otherwise it's just another Potemkin Village. Better to spend the money elsewhere.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #34
But Chrsitian Humanism did not. Next to God, man is the most important, his welfare and that of his family. Don't you find it sickening that those who are doing well and lack nothing in the material realm coudl be so selfish and callous not to see the plight of their fellow-man and fail to extend their compassion, empathy and tangible assistance to those nto as well off?

That sounds remarkably Communist to me. The whole redistribution of wealth, attacking the middle classes and attempting to make everyone equal.

The people fo Poland B, C, £ ot Ż, who haev had no say in where they were born, may be far better people than those wallowing in luxury in some glittery apartamentowiec

In Poland, there are opportunities for people from such places. I know several people from backwards villages who bettered themselves and became something - so there's no excuse. One of them is even ex-PGR!

That's why Poland deseprately needs PiS!

So that they can introduce Communism? Makes sense, given who the leader's father was.

When President Obama or any other leader announces something it doesn't happen the next day.

Perhaps you can explain why the PiS government saw figures collapsing. Perhaps they weren't really interested in Elblag at all?

The huge, complex machinery of state and economy does not immediatley react to the push of a button.

Strange. PiS certainly attempted to run it like that.

Many of the shortcomigns occuring during the all-too-brief glorious two years of the Fourth Republic had resulted from previous SLD blunders. And Poland will be suffering because of the PO's ill-considered measures long after the Platformers have been swept out of office.

In other words, blame everyone else but not themselves.

As for "glorious years" - you mean two years of corruption and abuse of power?
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
26 Jun 2013 #35
Destroying the Krynica area would also guarantee economic harm, not benefits

I can see you are the PF's Renaissance poster amd count marine engineering, port design, maritime shipping and overal marine management amongst a plethora of your areas of expertise. I am far more mdoest. However, a projection shown on TV indicated that the Vistula Promontory could be cut through at different points. They wouldn't have to choose the proximity of Krynica.

My suspicon is that you would have had no interest in the Elbląg issue if PiS had had not offered a bold proposal to save the port city and its people. And conversely, if Shifty Eyes had proposed something, you'd be all for it. Am I right?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #36
I can see you are the PF's Renaissance poster amd count marine engineering, port design, maritime shipping and overal marine management amongst a plethora of your areas of expertise.

Common sense and the ability to quickly appraise a situation is why I don't have to beg the Polonia for money.

Elblag requires considerable investment to even get it to a reasonable standard for a Baltic port. The cost of such investments were costed a few years ago as 260 million Euro - money that would be far better spent elsewhere, perhaps in promoting tourism to poor areas in Poland in general. Imagine how many agro-turstyka ventures could be funded for that kind of money?

I am far more mdoest. However, a projection shown on TV indicated that the Vistula Promontory could be cut through at different points. They wouldn't have to choose the proximity of Krynica.

Cutting through any of those areas would result in harm to the environment and would harm tourism immensely. Ever tried to find accommodation there in summer?

For what it's worth - Polish flagged vessels don't have any issues with transiting Russia anyway.

My suspicon is that you would have had no interest in the Elbląg issue if PiS had had not offered a bold proposal to save the port city and its people.

It wasn't a bold proposal, it was nothing but a cheap electoral bribe that Kaczynski had no intention of funding anyway. He had a distinct habit of promising things and then breaking those promises - and let's not forget about the 3 million apartments!

And conversely, if Shifty Eyes had proposed something, you'd be all for it. Am I right?

Who is "shifty eyes"? Another one of your made up names for politicians?
jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #37
It wasn't a bold proposal, it was nothing but a cheap electoral bribe that Kaczynski had no intention of funding anyway. He had a distinct habit of promising things and then breaking those promises - and let's not forget about the 3 million apartments!

That's what this whole nonsense is about.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
26 Jun 2013 #38
Why is it that 2005 (for most of the year, an SLD government) had quite high tonnage figures, then the figures collapsed in 2006 and 2007 during the PiS Government?

Because Russians blocked the traffic as they did several times before...
jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #40
I think we all remember how he promised all these things, then ran a very neo-Conservative fiscal policy that included refusing to give pay rises to some of the lowest paid public sector workers. Meanwhile, he was busy parachuting his men into positions of power.

Pure opportunism, with an unhealthy dose of Russophobia.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #41
Which resulted in economic decline, as can be seen above.
jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #42
Hey, at least they haven't suggested investing millions on a new pack mule route, or shipping corn down the Wisła on rafts.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
26 Jun 2013 #43
shipping corn down the Wisła on rafts.

So why was the Port of Elbląg established in the first place?
Nothing comes into being for no reason at all.
jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #44
More prescient than the historical reasons for establishing a port or anything else are the reasons for doing something now. And there just aren't enough reasons to carry out this particular scheme/scam in Elbląg.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
26 Jun 2013 #45
Unless Tusk said there was -- then you'd soon change your tack.
Harry
26 Jun 2013 #46
I don't believe that he would, some of us want what is best for Poland and not what a party leader says that we should want.

Now, is there any chance at all that either you or Greggy can tell us why Poland should invest a billion zloty in an entirely un-necessary port, what kind of cargo it would be suited to and how you propose to get said cargo to that location? Oh, and perhaps tell us how you propose to prevent the harmful environmental effects that would stop this proposal even if it was moronic from the economic perspective.
jon357 74 | 21,964
26 Jun 2013 #47
Unless Shifty Eyes said there was -- then you'd soon change your tack.

I thought Kaczynski, the failed ex-premier, was behind this bread and circuses scheme - like so many of his ideas, one that he has no intention of carrying out - as an attempt to win votes.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
26 Jun 2013 #48
Instead of just insulting people

You didn't even know that there is (and has been since centuries) a sea port in Elbląg, which is operating at a small fraction of its capacity due to problems with Russians and yet you know that it all doesn't make sense :))) That says all about your input into this thread. If Kaczyński said that Poland need more express roads and Tusk that it doesn't, you would be here "proving" that express roads are outdated shyt, which only Radio Maryja listeners could support and that you know it because expats know it all straight away, that's way they are CEOs and what's more, they still find time to teach some English !!!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #49
You didn't even know that there is (and has been since centuries) a sea port in Elbląg, which is operating at a small fraction of its capacity due to problems with Russians

It's not much of a sea port - as far as I can tell, draft size is extremely limited.

If Kaczyński said that Poland need more express roads and Tusk that it doesn't, you would be here "proving" that express roads are outdated shyt

Except common sense goes a long way. What Kaczynski proposed was a mammoth waste of money - so much so that he appears to have forgotten about the idea already.
Harry
26 Jun 2013 #50
You didn't even know that there is (and has been since centuries) a sea port in Elbląg

It's a local harbour, not a modern seaport.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
26 Jun 2013 #51
What Kaczynski proposed was a mammoth waste of money

He has just picked up the idea, which was proposed long before he became PM and as far as I remember the general feeling in the media and among experts was that building the channel near Krynica is controversial (localization) but overall it's not a bad idea, you "expats" clearly know nothing about the actual issue and oppose it simply because Kacz supported it, to the point that edit claims inland water transport is nonsense when in fact it's very ecological and widely promoted in EU.

no silly personal comments .
Harry
26 Jun 2013 #52
you "expats" clearly know nothing about the actual issue

a) We aren't expats in Poland.
b) It's you who knows nothing about the issue: Elbag is a local harbour, nothing more.

inland water transport is nonsense when in fact it's very ecological and widely promoted in EU.

Jon didn't say it was nonsense. However, using the Vistula for it is pretty much nonsense.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #53
He has just picked up the idea

Right before the local elections. It was forgotten about afterwards.

but overall it's not a bad idea

It's not a bad idea if you think destroying Natura 2000 areas is a good idea. Most sane people think otherwise.

you "expats" clearly know nothing about the actual issue

Is that why you keep avoiding the question of what cargo would be transported to Elblag and how?

inland water transport is nonsense when in fact it's very ecological and widely promoted in EU.

It certainly is nonsense when the inland waterways cannot be relied on for any serious amounts of transport. Poland doesn't have infinite amounts of money - it makes far more sense to make sure that Swinjouscie can accept Baltimax vessels than it does to create new seaports.

For what it's worth, I've found references suggesting that the current draft is limited to a mere 2.5m, and that the maximum potential is for 7.8m. Not worth it in the slightest.

In fact -

Length: 85m. Width: 15m. Draught: 2.3m

So we need to rebuild a railway bridge, build a canal (and infrastructure) and considerably improve the port. It might have been fine in the old days, but quite useless today.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
26 Jun 2013 #54
It was forgotten about afterwards.

No it wasn't. Tusk said it's ok but not the priority so will be slightly delayed... only after some more time he forgot about it just like about many other things.

Is that why you keep avoiding the question of what cargo would be transported to Elblag and how?

If you failed to notice, a bit of cargo is being transported there even now and in some years when Russians were not making much mess, it was a few hundred thousand tonnes a year, so there is clearly some potential, no one is saying that Elbląg would leave behind 3 city.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #55
No it wasn't. Tusk said it's ok but not the priority so will be slightly delayed... only after some more time he forgot about it just like about many other things.

Probably because he realised that it's not worth spending a billion zloty on something that will only allow ships up to 5-6m draft anyway.

If you failed to notice, a bit of cargo is being transported there even now and in some years when Russians were not making much mess, it was a few hundred thousand tonnes a year, so there is clearly some potential, no one is saying that Elbląg would leave behind 3 city.

How much of that trade was with Kaliningrad?
Harry
26 Jun 2013 #56
there is clearly some potential

Yes, there is potential for it to be what it says it is: a local harbour.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
26 Jun 2013 #57
a local harbour

Maybe it's a local harbour, but whatever the case, a team of experts or trouble-shooters should be set up to do a feasibility study. Maybe Elbląg could come alive again by combining local water traffic with recreational facilties to give the good people of Elbląg a sustainable livelihood. Maybe create a sepcial econ zone there. There may be numerous other possibilites.
Harry
26 Jun 2013 #58
a team of experts or trouble-shooters should be set up to do a feasibility study.

A team of experts wouldn't bother wasting their time on such a moronic scheme: it is clear to cost a stupid amount of money and be illegal under environmental protection law.

Maybe Elbląg could come alive again

I see that you haven't been to Elblag any time recently: the city is very much alive; just one example is the excellent reconstruction of its Old Town.

There may be numerous other possibilites.

Yes, and they all offer far better returns than spend a billion zloty on a scheme that is utterly retarded even by the standards of PiS and don't have disastrous environmental effects.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Jun 2013 #59
Maybe it's a local harbour, but whatever the case, a team of experts or trouble-shooters should be set up to do a feasibility study.

Who needs experts when it's already been costed at over a billion Zloty and also been shown to be incompatible with the Natura 2000 area there?

Maybe Elbląg could come alive again by combining local water traffic with recreational facilties to give the good people of Elbląg a sustainable livelihood.

At the cost of a billion zloty?

Maybe create a sepcial econ zone there. There may be numerous other possibilites.

There are possibilities, but there's no need to spend a billion zloty on electoral bribes.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
26 Jun 2013 #60
a billion zloty

That is probably an figure inflated by opponents to use as a scare tactic. Smaller figures have also been mentioned. Ain't there no such thing in Poland as muncipal bonds?


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