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Restoring the Port of Elbląg?


Polonius3 994 | 12,380
24 Jun 2013 #1
For a number of years Russian reprisals over various issues have turned the former Port of Elbląg into a land-locked town. Its only opening on the Baltic is at the Russian end of the Vistula Lagoon which limits Poles' access to the sea and could be closed by the Russians at any time.. The idea of cutting through a 10 km wide promontory on Polish territory has been discussed for some time. The government claims the cost would be prohibitve but backers insist it would pay for itself in no time. Thoughts?

Navigable canal on the Vistula Spit - a project maritime connections of the Vistula Lagoon from Gdańsk Bay within the Polish territory, aimed at shortening, deepening and simplifying the Baltic sea lane.

The decision to implement the project was announced by Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski November 10, 2006 in Elblag, just before the local elections as a result of discussions with local activists.

Planned before performing the appropriate expertise and environmental impact assessments, the cost of construction of the canal with a length of 1,100 meters and a width of 40 m and 80 m the bottom to the surface, is about 80 million. The deepening of the fairway and adapting it to the ships of the required tonnage through the port of Elblag, and the construction of special locks and bridges, increase the cost of the investment to about 230 million euros. The project comes into collision with the EU program Natura 2000 nature conservation.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kana%C5%82_%C5%BCeglugowy_na_Mierzei_Wi%C5%9Blanej
Wroclaw 44 | 5,379
24 Jun 2013 #2
. Thoughts?

Could we either have a link in English or a translation.
jon357 74 | 21,842
24 Jun 2013 #3
Does Poland news to build a new port?
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,380
24 Jun 2013 #4
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Lagoon

The port exists but has limtied access to the sea. Look at the map. The livelihood of this former port town has been threatened ever since the Russians started causing a stink.
pawian 222 | 23,674
24 Jun 2013 #5
Thoughts?

Experts suggest the idea will mean huge costs and little profit.

But at least Russians will have their ears pinned back. That`s what counts for PiS most.
jon357 74 | 21,842
24 Jun 2013 #6
I don't think there's any point making a new port in Elbląg. Gdynia is sufficient to handle the direct sea imports and most stuff comes in by road anyway.

A tourist marina might be a better option.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,380
24 Jun 2013 #7
Some Norwegian is building Beach city around Mielno in the smae general area. But the seafaring people of Elbląg have no work in theri occupation.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
25 Jun 2013 #8
I don't think there's any point making a new port in Elbląg.

There IS a sea port over there, the thing is that it is needed to cross the Russian waters to get to the open sea, which is a bit problematic... I think it should make sense to transport cargo from the south via rivers and then put it there on the ships. A lot of coal and other similar cargo used to be transported that way but I hardly see it these days.
jon357 74 | 21,842
25 Jun 2013 #9
The whole point is whether or not it should be developed. I think there's very little commercial sense.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
25 Jun 2013 #10
The government claims the cost would be prohibitve but backers insist it would pay for itself in no time. Thoughts?

If it would pay for itself in no time, then private business would already have paid for it. The fact that they haven't tells you all you need to know about the viability of the port in question.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
25 Jun 2013 #11
I think there's very little commercial sense.

Wow, I would need to spend at least several weeks over this issue to know If it has commercial sense or not. Expat power !!!!11 They know it all !
Harry
25 Jun 2013 #12
I think it should make sense to transport cargo from the south via rivers and then put it there on the ships.

Really Greggy? And what kind of cargo would that be? Perhaps Poland's rapidly dwindling coal exports? Good luck dredging a channel that can handle Capesize vessels (i.e. the ones mostly used for coal transport). And how are you planning to get the cargo to Elblag? Up the Vistula? Good luck with that: last summer the river was so shallow in Warsaw that one could walk across it. I see that you have really thought your position through.

Gdynia is sufficient to handle the direct sea imports and most stuff comes in by road anyway.

Most of the stuff which would in theory be suitable for river transport goes by rail. Gdynia is indeed an excellent port with very good container facilities and is being further upgraded at the moment. And its intermodal capabilities are rapidly expanding and its rail links being developed (and that's before one takes into account the new Warsaw - Tri-city line). Gdansk is the only port in Poland that can handle Capesize and Panamax vessels, which is why it also has the deepwater container terminal, which is Poland's only one that can handle Baltimax vessels. Interestingly, Gdansk now handles more containers than Gdynia. Given that Poland already has two very modern ports with excellent facilities, one does have to wonder what kind of moron would suggest making the vast investment on another port, let alone a port which would need countless millions of advance spending dredging out a channel before it has access to the sea.

Wow, I would need to spend at least several weeks over this issue to know If it has commercial sense or not. Expat power !!!!11 They know it all !

And there's your problem Greggy: you think that you personally need to do the work. Other people can assess situations and realise that somebody has already done the work and all they need to do is access that work. In this case, if dredging a channel and building new port facilities might make commercial sense, investors would have taken a long hard look and done all their sums. The fact that no company is interested shows that the project does not make commercial sense. This ability to not repeat work that has already been done and thus avoid wasting weeks of work is one of the reasons why expats tend to have well-paid managerial positions while you have a very junior position working in a job you hate.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
25 Jun 2013 #13
Really Greggy? And what kind of cargo would that be?

Harold, the cargo expert :)))

avoid wasting weeks of work is one of the reasons why expats tend to have well-paid managerial positions

Those teaching English or you mean the one cleaning cars next to Biedronka ?
Harry
25 Jun 2013 #14
Harold, the cargo expert :)))

Greggy, you're the one who says that "it should make sense to transport cargo from the south via rivers and then put it there [in Elbag] on the ships." So tell us which cargo would be good for that. Oops, I forgot that you can't do that, because there isn't any.

Those teaching English or you mean the one cleaning cars next to Biedronka ?

Nice to see that you still haven't learned what an 'expat' actually is. Here's a hint for you: not all foreigners in Poland are expats.

But still, it's nice to see you focusing on people rather than what people have said, that's always a very clear signal that you know you've been pulled up on your BS and completely lost the argument.
johnb121 4 | 183
25 Jun 2013 #15
Dunno where the figures come from, but Wikipedia quotes 1km and 50 million PLN. Those sound such small figures someone would surely have taken a punt if they thought there was the smallest business case?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
25 Jun 2013 #16
Greggy, you're the one who says that "it should make sense to transport cargo from the south via rivers and then put it there [in Elbag] on the ships."

Logically It should make sense, If it really does I don't know, it's you, who claim that it doesn't.

In this case, if dredging a channel and building new port facilities might make commercial sense, investors would have taken a long hard look and done all their sums. The fact that no company is interested shows that the project does not make commercial sense.

Private companies use to build terminals, no ship would get even close to Gdynia or Gdańsk If the state was not investing a damn load of money into things such as maintaining entrance channel, navigation facilities, roads leading to the port and so on. Harold, you are clearly as clueless about this issue as crap in the closet is and your stuff about expats who know it all straight away really crossed the border of ridiculousness :)))

Nice to see that you still haven't learned what an 'expat' actually is. Here's a hint for you: not all foreigners in Poland are expats.

I asked the car cleaning guy If he's an expat, he said yes, it's really no different than PF people teaching English or reviewing restaurants, they are "expats" because they say so.
smurf 39 | 1,971
25 Jun 2013 #17
asked the car cleaning guy

No you didn't.
Harry
25 Jun 2013 #18
Logically It should make sense, If it really does I don't know, it's you, who claim that it doesn't.

No Greggy, it doesn't work like that: you make a claim, you need to support that claim. So tell us, what sort of cargo is better suited to using Elbag than Gdansk or Gdynia and how do you propose getting it there?

Private companies use to build terminals, no ship would get even close to Gdynia or Gdańsk If the state was not investing a damn load of money into things such as maintaining entrance channel, navigation facilities, roads leading to the port and so on.

And why should the Polish state make those same investments for a third time?

arold, you are clearly as clueless about this issue as crap in the closet is and your stuff about expats who know it all straight away really crossed the border of ridiculousness

Funny how you claim to know everything and that nobody else knows anything but you always refuse to answer questions that are put to you and instead fall back on your tired old attempts at insulting people.

I asked the car cleaning guy If he's an expat, he said yes

Now you're just lying Greggy, just give up now, eh?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
25 Jun 2013 #19
Dunno where the figures come from, but Wikipedia quotes 1km and 50 million PLN.

What answers this question is the following :

Decyzja o realizacji tego projektu została ogłoszona przez premiera Jarosława Kaczyńskiego 10 listopada 2006 w Elblągu, tuż przed wyborami samorządowymi, jako efekt rozmów z tamtejszymi aktywistami.

The decision to implement the project was announced by Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski, 10 November 2006 in Elblag , just before the local elections as a result of discussions with local activists.

In other words, PiS, facing a loss in the local elections - came up with a fantasy idea that would get him votes there. The idea is dead.

But as per usual with Kaczynski, he didn't do his homework -

Planned, before the relevant expertise and environmental impact assessments, the cost of the channel with a length of 1,100 meters and a width of 40 m at the bottom and 80 m at the surface is about 80 million. The deepening of the fairway and bringing it to vessels required by the port of Elbląg tonnage, and the construction of special locks and bridges, increase the cost of investment to around 230 million euros. The project comes into collision with the EU nature conservation program Natura 2000 .

230 million Euro is totally unrealistic - there's no need for a port there, and the Natura 2000 problems guarantee that such a thing will never be built.

In short : Polonius is just bringing up some pie in the sky rubbish that was mentioned as an electoral bribe at the time.

Perhaps Polonius or Greggy can outline the point in spending 230 million Euro when there exist perfectly good ports as it is?
jon357 74 | 21,842
25 Jun 2013 #20
Especially one that's on the same main road to most of Poland as the Trójmasto. More useful to develop Świnoujscie which has proximity to Berlin as a huge plus.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
25 Jun 2013 #21
No you didn't.

Yes I did, I asked If he was an expat and ho nodded, so I believe he confirmed that he's one of expats.

No Greggy, it doesn't work like that: you make a claim

Harold, It's you who claim that it doesn't make sense because... otherwise some private company would have already made it, which clearly shows your cluelessness regarding the issue, according your own "logic" there's no sense to build any new bridge in Poland because there's no private investors interested in such a venture, Harold the expert says so :))))

attempts at insulting people

I learn from the best one.

just give up now

No, I won't :))
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
25 Jun 2013 #22
More useful to develop Świnoujscie which has proximity to Berlin as a huge plus.

Indeed, and decent road/rail access too.

Then again, in the world of PiS-economics, large vanity projects are more important than economic sense/paying nurses properly!
Nile 1 | 154
25 Jun 2013 #23
X - wrote "More useful to develop Świnoujscie which has proximity to Berlin as a huge plus."
I see the Nord Stream gas pipeline between Russia and Germany as a main obstacle to that proposal.I understand that bigger ships would experience some difficulties accessing Polish harbor.

Although Polish Government expressed assurances:
"Poland launches measures to deepen the harbor entries in Świnoujście and Szczecin, the German side would launch corresponding measures to clear away any impediments," Tusk said, stressing that the Polish population felt this was an important statement"

Would somebody be kind enough to update me on the progress of those measures?
dw.de
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Jun 2013 #24
I see the Nord Stream gas pipeline between Russia and Germany as a main obstacle to that proposal.I understand that bigger ships would experience some difficulties accessing Polish harbor.

It's a bit of a non-issue. The maximum size of ships that can access the Baltic Sea through the Great Belt in Denmark is 15.4 metres, while ships up to 15m can (safely, allowing 1.5m margin) can access Swinjouscie with the presence of Nord Stream. It would only require a slight lowering of Nord Stream should Swinjouscie expand - which is unlikely to be much of an issue for anyone involved as the work wouldn't be particularly complicated.

As it stands, Swinjouscie can only accept up to 13.4m as it is anyway. It seems that the Polish and German governments have more or less agreed that if Swinjouscie expands, then they will (in accordance with international law) stick Nord Stream deeper along a 5km section that Swinjouscie would require. All in all, a complete non-issue.
Nile 1 | 154
26 Jun 2013 #25
delphiandomine wrote - "As it stands, Swinjouscie can only accept up to 13.4m as it is anyway"
Thank you.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Jun 2013 #26
Got my numbers slightly wrong -

Swinjouscie can accept up to 13.2m at present. Ships up to 13.5m can access Swinjouscie (assuming no draft limitations in Swinjouscie) right now - but if the port is expanded, then Germany will sink Nord Stream lower. It seems that the only thing that the Germans are guilty of is not paying for something that wasn't needed right now.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,380
26 Jun 2013 #27
Everything is not only about money, tonnage and ship size. There are people who know the price of everything but the vaklue of nothing! That's where PiS stands head and shoulders above all the tin-horn politicians, shady buisness types and their brainwashed toadies, becasue the welfare of the good people of Elbląg in this case comes first and foremost. Elbląg was a normally functioning seaport with a maritime-oriented citizenry until the Russiasn started pulling their fast ones. An additional wndow on the Baltic would allow the city to thrive once again and with it the entire surronding area.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Jun 2013 #28
Everything is not only about money, tonnage and ship size.

In this case, it is. If something isn't viable, then it isn't viable. Remember, Communism ended over 20 years ago.

There are people who know the price of everything but the vaklue of nothing!

I fail to see the value in a hugely expensive vanity project that would also result in the destruction of a Natura 2000 area. Those of us who know a thing or two about the environment (especially the beauty around Krynica) know better than to build such vanity projects there.

That's where PiS stands head and shoulders above all the tin-horn politicians, shady buisness types and their brainwashed toadies, becasue the welfare of the good people of Elbląg in this case comes first and foremost.

You mean that buying off the people of Elblag is more important than our environment?

Elbląg was a normally functioning seaport with a maritime-oriented citizenry until the Russiasn started pulling their fast ones.

You mean it was a seaport in previous times. Can you explain why Poland economically needs Elblag to exist as a port, and why 260 million Euro (and destroying the environment) is better spent there than in Swinjouscie?

An additional wndow on the Baltic would allow the city to thrive once again and with it the entire surronding area.

Except it wouldn't. Time is money, and the additional time spent having to get into Elblag versus being able to unload in Gdansk/Gdynia would make it unworthwhile. Destroying the Krynica area would also guarantee economic harm, not benefits.

Tell us Polonius - what would be the maximum draft size that Elblag could accommodate?

Isn't it strange how Jaroslaw Kaczynski has mentioned very little about the subject since then?
jon357 74 | 21,842
26 Jun 2013 #29
Everything is not only about money, tonnage and ship size.

When we're talking about redeveloping an old port, everything is about money tonnage and ship size.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
26 Jun 2013 #30
Curiously Jon, have a look at these figures : maritime.com.pl/port/indexp-en.php?p=ELBLAG

Scroll down to "cargo figures in statistics".

Why is it that 2005 (for most of the year, an SLD government) had quite high tonnage figures, then the figures collapsed in 2006 and 2007 during the PiS Government? Hmm...


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