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Is it possible that Polish president was assasinated? If so then, by whom?


Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #871
Just try to get into a US airforce base and you'll see how many "armed Americans are lurking there."

Even a decommissioned air base?
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #872
Most likely yes - they still keep IL-76 there - visible on satellite images of the catastrophy place.
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #873
Poland is no longer in the Russian influence zone and never will be again!

What, did I miss something? Did Poland suddenly pick up and relocate elsewhere? lol

Most likely yes - they still keep IL-76 there

They can keep planes there, but the definition of "decommission" is to remove from active status, which would suggest the absence of armed soldiers. If there's any military here, straighten me out...
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #874
the definition of "decommission" is to remove from active status, which would suggest the absence of armed soldiers.

No, somebody should keep an eye on army property - the planes in storage.
convex 20 | 3,978
20 Apr 2010 #875
As far Russia claiming the Patriot missilies in Poland are a threat to their security - total hogwash. That's like a bank robber saying guards wearing bullet-proof wests are a threat to his/her security. Sasha - Poland is no longer in the Russian influence zone and never will be again! Even with a weak, Russia pleasing president we have. Get used to it!

The Russians don't have a problem with the Patriots, they had a problem with the GMD missiles.

And I mean, NATO, like it or not, isn't exactly the most Russian friendly organization. For instance, how would you feel about Russia joining NATO? I mean, if Russia isn't a threat, it should be okay right?

If the answer to that is no, then you can see why Russia would feel threatened by a military alliance on its doorstep.

They can keep planes there, but the definition of "decommission" is to remove from active status, which would suggest the absence of armed soldiers. If there's any military here, straighten me out...

In Russia, like Poland, there are all kinds of car parks where a guy gives you a ticket in exchange for a couple zl and watches your car. Same goes for planes.

And there is still Russian military based in Smolensk.
landora - | 199
20 Apr 2010 #876
And there is still Russian military based in Smolensk.

And I would hope that the Russian military would be present for the arrival of the Polish President and others.

Do people, for instance, really believe that the American military wouldn't be nearby whenever a foreign head of state turns up?
Sasha 2 | 1,083
20 Apr 2010 #877
As far Russia claiming the Patriot missilies in Poland are a threat to their security - total hogwash.

From the synpunkt of a peaceful citizen, of course it is. I would probably share that opinion if not studied the question from a military point of view in my days. There's such a thing as nuclear parity; if it's violated by either side that will cause problems. There're many ways of violation. One of them deployment of any kind of interceptors at neighbourhood. I assure you, the kickback would be immediate if Russia durst to deploy interceptors in the vicinity of American boundary. That has nothing to do with our politicians, that's just the same for any Nuclear Nation.

PS. Still luv ya though! ;)

Leve det polsk-ryska samarbetet! :) No offense. If two people always agree with each other... one of them is extra. :))
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #878
There's such a thing as nuclear parity

Are you sure you didn't mix the Patriot system witn GMD missiles? Patriot is the same as our S-300 - and I saw it near Kaliningrad.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
20 Apr 2010 #879
Are you sure you didn't mix the Patriot system witn GMD missiles?

Jed, AFAIK the system can work against ballistic missilery. Besides they would need to install any kind of radar system which means constant scanning of Russian territory. That's already not a nuclear parity.

EDIT: To make things more clear... One doesn't to hammer out missile jak kilbasu to violate the parity. You can just put your opponent to no-win position. Patriot missiles themselves are not attacking weapon.

One more thing...

Poland is no longer in the Russian influence zone and never will be again!

True and I don't want it to be there ever again. Nor I want it to be in any other influence sphere. You know that I've always been for healthy cooperation.

If stick with example of bank and robbers... The US will have an option to use a Polish citizen as a human shield if ever implement plans of Russian bankbreak. Don't see here any benefits for either side (except the US gov, not people).
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #880
there is still Russian military based in Smolensk.

Yes, but not at Smolensk-Severnyi. It was decommissioned a year earlier and was solely used for mixed miltary-civilian flights only.
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #881
Jed, AFAIK the system can work against ballistic missilery.

Short range only - not a problem. I didn't hear laud protests from our side - unhappy, yes, but we can live with it.

If our close neighbour feels unsafe it is more dangerous for us. And it is bad for business.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
20 Apr 2010 #882
I didn't hear laud protests from our side - unhappy, yes, but we can live with it.

One can technically live pinioned to a dynamite box (till it blows).

I didn't hear laud protests from our side - unhappy, yes, but we can live with it.

You may read them in links given by Olga (they sound like a threat in her book).
Besides if you don't hear of anything that doesn't mean nothing happens.

If our close neighbour feels unsafe it is more dangerous for us.

I understand and thoroughly share your good will to care about neighbours but the problem is that we won't feel safe in this case.

For more info you may acquaint yourself with Russian and American Military Doctrines. Oh... and read my edit above.

P.S. If anything, I'm a lieutenant of missile arm in reserve.
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #883
(they sound like a threat in her book).

Not only in my book... Are you starting up again, Sasha? ;) Please refrain from misinterpretations unless you actually read some articles on the issue... the Russian government's anger/displeasure with this plan was clearly documented and described, the "threats," or whatever you want to call it, are quoted. Let's not start round 2 again, lol ;P
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #884
One can technically live pinioned to a dynamite box (till it blows).

We used to live on it since WWII (I mean nuc weapons).

P.S. If anything, I'm a lieutenant of missile arm in reserve.

You are more experienced than I am. :)
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #885
I'm just making the point that the Russian government was pissed about this--there's no denying that.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
20 Apr 2010 #886
Not only in my book... Are you starting up again, Sasha?

Not at all. Of course not only in yours. What I say is that the reaction is quite expected and not surprising, at least for me.

We used to live on it since WWII (I mean nuc weapons).

Hm... :) That's a different story. People will never cease to invent more and more complicated ways of killing each other. Doesn't matter if it was made to defend as long as it every time ends up in the hands of bloodthirsty j*rks.

You are more experienced than I am. :)

Not the one [experience] to be boast of.
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #887
I'm just making the point that the Russian government was pissed about this--there's no denying that.

All your proofs sent us to 2008 - it's all about GMD missiles. Newer information is rather neutral.

I don't think we should be happy with "Patriots" - more arms create more danger. I just said that danger level is lower with it than with GMD. May be I missed something but there are no serious targets in Polish territory to protect with Patriots against our tactical missiles. GMD position would be a target but it is not there.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2010 #888
I'm just making the point that the Russian government was pissed about this--there's no denying that.

Yes, so all they did was raise the price of gas, which Poland agreed to without any fuss, perhaps knowing that Russia wasn't keen on negotiating. Today's Russia uses economic, not military warfare.
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #889
Today's Russia uses economic, not military warfare.

More important is that Russia is not going to bring communist's "happiness" to all over the world. Now it is just a business - nothing personal. :)
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #890
P.S. If anything, I'm a lieutenant of missile arm in reserve.

Am I a cross-hair on your radar, lol?

I'm just making the point that the Russian government was pissed about this--there's no denying that.

And pissed people have been known to do pissy things.

All your proofs sent us to 2008 - it's all about GMD missiles.

How is this for recent? Where does it talk about GMD missiles? Patriot missiles...
This is from less than 6 months ago:
nytimes/2009/10/21/world/europe/21biden.html?_r=1
And this is only from yesterday:
kyivpost/news/world/detail/64378
Notice the timing in the second article--patriot missiles in only weeks.
Don't make me go in circles here....
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #891
How is this for recent?

Did you read them youself?
NYT:
"Moscow has been a staunch opponent of the shield, asserting that the antiballistic missiles were directed against Russia, a claim that the United States has strongly denied." - This remark is about GMD while previous text is about "Patriots".

Informations in kyivpost is neutral (don't you forget it is from Ukraine?)

This is the missile thread: Do Poles in Poland really feel betrayed because there won't be any US Shield?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2010 #892
And pissed people have been known to do pissy things.

What about the portable ILS, Olga?

What about the TAWS system, Olga?

Come on, don't ignore our questions now.
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #893
Russia uses economic, not military warfare.

Bullsh*t--remind yourself of the tanks in Georgia, please...("I will crush you like a bug...")

Jed, is this headline any clearer for you?

Is the Associated Free Press less distasteful to you than the Kyiv Post?
czar 1 | 143
20 Apr 2010 #894
What I say is that the reaction is quite expected and not surprising, at least for me.

sasha is it in your opinion enough to down LK's plane? im just asking

Yes, so all they did was raise the price of gas, which Poland agreed to without any fuss,

wasnt LK big on cutting off this dependancy?

anyway i realy feel no substantial reports will come of this "accident" and as time goes by another story will take over, then, in the future if were all still here youll hear that the russians downed the Polish presidents plane and youll either say to yourself oh thats interesting i remember that, or Oh see i knew it all along but my life got in the way cause nobody cared i was right, haha thats some speculation @Mare
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #895
What about the portable ILS, Olga?

Quit wasting space for jabs-and pull the stick from your ass. Capiche, baby?
czar 1 | 143
20 Apr 2010 #896
hah olga, beautiful, i love how you quote yourself i will be doing that in the future.
quoting myself that is.
Jed - | 165
20 Apr 2010 #897
Jed, is this headline any clearer for you?

That's a danger: "...aside from the Patriots Washington aims to deploy new SM-3 missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic in 2015."

How Kaczynski "assasination" would influence it? It may only increase Poles favor to host US shield. Russia has the opposite aim. Look somewhere else.
Olga 1 | 330
20 Apr 2010 #898
Yes, so all they did was raise the price of gas, which Poland agreed to without any fuss

wasnt LK big on cutting off this dependancy?

Damn right, he was--because he didn't want Poland unexpectedly freezing its ass off like the Ukraine did.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
20 Apr 2010 #899
sasha is it in your opinion enough to down LK's plane? im just asking

How did you tie that together? Just don't see any logic.
czar 1 | 143
20 Apr 2010 #900
yeah i remember that...

well in short i tied it together simple russia is against LK is for and Poles in aphganistan and russia connection to Iran, nuke power/ pipelines do a deal with EU, im not saying definite, i mean to me it is definite but it is what it is.

obama is a russian rollover and so on.

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