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Polish Pope, John Paul II has been canonized today [with John 23rd]


Lolek2
18 May 2014 #31
May He rest in Peace!

amen
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
19 May 2014 #32
Jaruzelski good. JP II bad. Only on Polishforums.
jon357 67 | 17,530
19 May 2014 #33
Only on Polishforums.

In real life too in Warsaw sometimes.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
19 May 2014 #34
Lolek wrote:

"Given this opportunity I say that you should take interest in gruops where such things are happening on a daily basis like teachers, gays, politicians, military and such. Don't bother your head with an organisation you have no connection to."

But sure, I should concentrate more on "gays" and how we can all help them "pray it outta them" because thousands and thousands of children being molested, an act that in many parts of the world carries the death penalty, is far less of an issue.

Your defense in all this is that because I'm not catholic, because I'm not "connected" to this "organization", I should disregard their actions, no matter how despicable they might be. On the other hand, you're no longer denying it, you're now just telling me,"it's none of your business."

If you ever come across a non catholic parent that has a child that was molested by a priest, I can only hope you say something similar to them. Maybe the inevitable a$$ whoopin' you would soon after receive would knock some sense into you.

People like you contribute to the problem. The ongoing denial of millions allows it to continue to go unpunished.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
20 May 2014 #35
JPII is now a saint for practicing Catholics all around the world to draw inspiration from or to be the focus of their personal prayers.

It goes without say that low-value and low-information people don't think highly of the Polish Pope being Canonized, or that these low-value people are Anti-Catholic. But I think most fair-minded people and even some of the Pope's critics, acknowledge that the Polish Pope was a special kind of person.....who came into being a Pope at the right time.
Bieganski 17 | 896
20 May 2014 #36
most fair-minded people and even some of the Pope's critics, acknowledge that the Polish Pope was a special kind of person.....who came into being a Pope at the right time.

You're absolutely right. And this is supported in the following map which shows countries in purple which sent a delegation to JPII's funeral and those in gray which didn't:

JPII Funera Dignitaries

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pope_John_Paul_II_funeral_dignitaries.png

And by foreign delegations it wasn't merely clergymen from various faiths and a country's ambassador assigned to Rome. His funeral was attended by kings, queens, prime ministers, ministers, presidents and first ladies. Of course his canonization didn't gather the same size or type of crowd but when he was alive and even today the entire world recognized that JPII was a remarkable man.

One quote I found sums it up the best:

abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s968505.htm

John Paul II was "a giant of the human spirit in a post-modern moment that's full of pygmies."

TheOther 6 | 3,692
20 May 2014 #37
It goes without say that low-value and low-information people don't think highly of the Polish Pope being Canonized, or that these low-value people are Anti-Catholic.

High value people = catholic, low value people = all others ? Interesting.
Crow 150 | 9,552
20 May 2014 #38
John Paul II has been canonized today [with John 23rd]

Great thing

Do you people know that only time when that time Polish leadership hijacked Pope John Paul II was when Pope supported Serbian cause and demanded that official Poland stay out of NATO attack on Yugoslavia and partition of Serbia? Yes. Great man sensed what is right and deserve to be known as Saint.
smurf 39 | 1,981
20 May 2014 #39
People like you contribute to the problem. The ongoing denial of millions allows it to continue to go unpunished.

Well said, this thread was decent on the first page, gone to the dogs now.
Harry
20 May 2014 #40
Do you people know that only time when that time Polish leadership hijacked Pope John Paul II was when Pope supported Serbian cause and demanded that official Poland stay out of NATO attack on Yugoslavia and partition of Serbia?

Really? Do happen to have a source which supports that stance? There are many which say that he didn't have a word of criticism for the NATO liberation of Kosovo. In fact, didn't he order his

Personally one of (few) the acts of JPII's which I thoroughly supported was his order for the Vatican City to recognise the independence of both Slovenia and Croatia before the EU recognised their independence.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
20 May 2014 #41
Well said, this thread was decent on the first page, gone to the dogs now.

Oh you mean it was decent when most of the posts were bashing JPII.
Crow 150 | 9,552
21 May 2014 #42
Really? Do happen to have a source which supports that stance? There are many which say that he didn't have a word of criticism for the NATO liberation of Kosovo. In fact, didn't he order his

sure. This was topic on Polishforums long time ago (now in archives), back in 2008... see >>>

Pope John Paul II tried to prevent that Polish politics batray Serbians?!
https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/history/pope-john-paul-tried-prevent-politics-25948/

Personally one of (few) the acts of JPII's which I thoroughly supported was his order for the Vatican City to recognise the independence of both Slovenia and Croatia before the EU recognised their independence.

yes when He was double crossed (or forced) by NATO and EU leading powers to do so. Don`t forget that back then Yugoslavia, officially still was socialist country. In transformations but, socialist officially by constitution. Considering that Pope John Paul II dedicated His life to fight communism menace it wasn`t hard to convince him to recognize Slovenia and Croatia. In His eyes, it was act against one socialist country. So, why not push it in dissolution?

Also, NATO and EU needed Vatican`s recognition of Croatia and Slovenia in order to upload religious aspect in the crisis. One of their main manipulation was that Serbs are aggressive Orthodox and plus communists. Propaganda went in direction to show how Serbs discriminate Catholic Croats. But, neither Serbs were for communism, neither they had in mind religious aspect in dispute with Croats, in a way how should Yugoslavia eventually survive or be dissolved. Orthodox Serbians didn`t oppress Catholic Croats but the opposite and, even Catholic Croats oppressed Catholic Serbs. With Catholic Slovenians, Orthodox Serbs never had any kind of negative religious issue (its absolutely unknown moment in our mutual history! truly unknown). To tell you, Slovenians are far more religious Catholics then Croats and during WWII they were massively oppressed by Catholic Croats. 40.000 of Catholic Slovenians founded salvation among Orthodox Serbs during WWII, escaping from German and Croatian oppression.

Later actions of John Paul II and His support to Serbians telling much about His deep connection to specifically Poland`s interests. Yes, He was Catholic leader but He was also Polish patriot.
smurf 39 | 1,981
21 May 2014 #43
Oh you mean it was decent when most of the posts were bashing JPII.

You shouldn't take it personally, we've shown that his hands were dirty. You need to accept it.

Why does some Poles take it so personally when another Pole they've never met or known is criticised?
If the man had been German, Icelandic, Nigerian, Fijian etc. he'd still would've been a pedophile facilitator. Just coz he was born in Poland means nothing.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
21 May 2014 #44
Why does some Poles take it so personally when another Pole they've never met or known is criticised?

Because that is how people react when one of the greatest figures from their country is attacked by a foreigner. Black people would probably get angry if Martin Luther King Jr was criticized, so would Indian's if you had a go at Gandhi [I know people make fun of him a lot]. It's the way it is. You probably have people you think were great, that you admire very much, and would defend if they were attacked.
Harry
21 May 2014 #45
This was topic on Polishforums long time ago (now in archives), back in 2008... see >>>

And as was pointed out to you all those years ago: "the pope did not condone or support Serbs, quite the oposite." (And also "He [Crow] should be on a Serb forum , where people might be interested in all this stuff.....")

yes when He was double crossed (or forced) by NATO and EU leading powers to do so.

Please don't lie about the Polish pope: he stood up to the evil empire that was the USSR and he would have been more than capable of standing up to the EU and/or NATO if he had ever needed to. He did the right thing with regard to the independence of both Slovenia and Croatia and for the right reasons.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
21 May 2014 #46
Because that is how people react when one of the greatest figures from their country is attacked by a foreigner.

it's reasonable to say, but religion is in a class of its own and most assuredly gets a "pass" like no other.

with all this said, the attack isn't specifically on PJP2, it's a cover up that's been going on longer than any of us have been alive, it's just that we're talking about PJP2, and this was part of his life. being an intricate player in the covering up of thousands and thousands of crimes unspeakable and unthinkable to most. when you think of the catholic faith, it's par for the course, really. think of the old testament and the genocide that "occurred" during those times. imagine an all powerful god that creates a world and a civilization, entirely his design, and then at some point he gets disappointed in everyone's actions......so he murders them all. mothers clutching their children in their homes as the walls catch on fire and they both get baked alive inside a burning inferno. fathers trying to collect his children and save his wife by bringing them to the top of a mountain to save them from drowning, only to then see a 500 foot wave crash down on all of them, his family gets ripped out of his hands, and he, along with his wife and young children, drown to death.

all excusable. in fact, regardless of how terrible of an event that occurred then, or occurs now, it's always chalked up to "god's will", and when something great happens....yeah, he gets the credit for that too. it must be nice to play both sides of the court. kinda like living in the Vatican, waving your hand and "blessing" sick people, being worshiped by millions, only to simultaneously sit idle while thousands upon thousands of children fall victim to what is quite possibly the worst, most disgusting crime of all....sexual child abuse.

i'm not picking on JP2 because so many before him, and now after him have done the same....i'm simply saying that to call him a saint is....well.....i can't think of the word.
smurf 39 | 1,981
21 May 2014 #47
Because that is how people react when one of the greatest figures from their country is attacked by a foreigner.

What a ridiculous, close-minded attitude to have.
Are you accusing me of 'attacking' the former pope because he was Polish? That's just plain silly.
I couldn't give a fiddlers where he was born (not that he had much of a choice in it even).

Black people would probably get angry if Martin Luther King Jr was criticized, so would Indian's if you had a go at Gandhi

I suspect that most people when presented with proof would accept their faults. Everyone knows that King was mad about women and had no qualms cheating on his wife. Gandhi was supposed to have kind of strange sexual undertakings too.

You probably have people you think were great, that you admire very much, and would defend if they were attacked.

Sure, Rolf Harris was a hero of mine when I was a kid, loved his tv shows and his books. Now it looks like he too was a kiddie fiddler, I will certainly not be defending him.

It's difficult to admit being wrong and that our heroes weren't the people we thought they were, but when solid proof is shown then it really should be accepted. To defend a person in light of that proof on the basis that they were born in the same country as you is a bit daft.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
21 May 2014 #48
Sure, Rolf Harris was a hero of mine when I was a kid, loved his tv shows and his books

I'm not sure how infatuated you are with Rolf Harris, but I'm sure Rolf is not you, what JPII was too myself and many other Catholics. I think a better comparison would be somebody attacking a family member of yours.

To defend a person in light of that proof on the basis that they were born in the same country as you is a bit daft.

Problem is, I don't think we have had would you call solid proof. Stuff went on when he was The Pope. Nobody has proven that he was told about it and said 'meh, whatever, let it continue.'
Harry
21 May 2014 #49
I think a better comparison would be somebody attacking a family member of yours.

If a member of my family had made it possible for tens of thousands of children to be sexually abused, I certainly wouldn't be defending him.

Stuff went on when he was The Pope. Nobody has proven that he was told about it and said 'meh, whatever, let it continue.'

So the best defense you can come up with is that he was mind-numbing inept and negligent for decades. In the very unlikely event that he didn't know, he most certainly should have known; at best he was criminally negligent.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
21 May 2014 #50
Should he have known? What if it was kept from him? I'm sure people like you think that the Vatican Church is corrupt anyway, so perhaps they kept it from him? I'm sure there might be people in the Vatican right now who aren't overly keen about where the current Pope is heading. Some decisions might be made behind his back. Who knows? I never said the Vatican was squeaky clean.
Harry
21 May 2014 #51
Should he have known?

Yes. He was in charge, it was his duty to know.

What if it was kept from him?

Then he was criminally negligent, not that you have any proof that it was kept from him.
smurf 39 | 1,981
21 May 2014 #52
I don't think we have had would you call solid proof. Stuff went on when he was The Pope. Nobody has proven that he was told about it and said 'meh, whatever, let it continue

You might want to go back and read the 1st page of this thread.

so perhaps they kept it from him?

It wasn't kept from him, he knew well enough but was clever enough to not sign anything, he got his underlings to put pen to paper.

It really makes no difference if you accept it or not, it happened on his watch so he's responsible.
Fuzzy used a good analogy on the 1st page about a company boss.
Crow 150 | 9,552
21 May 2014 #53
Thank you Harry for all kind words. Still, i suggest you to refrain yourself from spreading propaganda, at least in thread dedicated to that great man and a Saint- John Paul II.

Thank you in advance.
Lolek2
22 May 2014 #54
But sure, I should concentrate more on "gays" and how we can all help them "pray it outta them" because thousands and thousands of children being molested, an act that in many parts of the world carries the death penalty, is far less of an issue.

When a pair of gays abused their five years old foster son in the front of the internet cam, it doesn't bother me they didn't make news for years like it is with rotten priests; what bothers me is a fact that it took a while for their gay friends to do the right thing and inform the police. It seems that gays involvement in such practises is being kept under the lid by media. In case of the RCC and priests the pot is heated up.

I fail to understand what the fact that being gay carries the death penalty gives the right to claim privileges for them in a country they are not discminated at all.

Strangly your sympaty is not captured by the discrimination of christians which going on in maany parts of the world. When children are being raped and sold as slaves or put into prison for being christan.

Statstically speaking priest are the last gruop likaly to abuse children, even theacher which suppse to be slected gruop enjoy much higher precenage of pedos in their ranks than priests, the same goes for ministers, and others grups I'm not going to list here.

Would you tell me why the gruop less likely to comit that offence is being stygmatiezed as a nest of offenders? Is that becosue prejudiced haters like you enjoy yourlsef spreading hate agaist the RCC?

Your defense in all this is that because I'm not catholic, because I'm not "connected" to this "organization", I should disregard their actions, no matter how despicable they might be. On the other hand, you're no longer denying it, you're now just telling me,"it's none of your business."

No it is none of your business. I have never been denying fact only your guesses.

If you ever come across a non catholic parent that has a child that was molested by a priest, I can only hope you say something similar to them. Maybe the inevitable a$$ whoopin' you would soon after receive would knock some sense into you.

Look write fiction, you are good at making up stories.

at best he was criminally negligent.

you are criminally insane, or possessed; I'm going to pray for you
jon357 67 | 17,530
22 May 2014 #55
Statstically speaking priest are the last gruop likaly to abuse children

That is far from true.

Very often people in some sort of position of authority. Mind you, most abusers don't have a rich and powerful network to help them evade justice.

As far as JPII's role in this goes, by the time the scandal hit, he was too old and decrepit to tackle the problem effectively or to stand up to elements in the Curia that didn't want to address it and as we know was determined to stay in the role until he died.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
23 May 2014 #56
Nobody has proven that he was told about it and said 'meh, whatever, let it continue.'

this statement......man, I don't even know where to begin, man. you're right on par with holocaust deniers.

first and foremost, he wasn't born on a monday and tuesday he became "The Pope". he moved up the ranks like everyone else. the man was 26 years old when he was ordained and after 32 years in the business, he became pope. 32 years. i'd say that's plenty of time to figure out that child abuse is a problem within the RCC. who woulda thunk it....tens of thousands of men, all sworn to never ever touch a woman for the rest of their lives, many of them living together, wearing dresses and funny hats.

you are criminally insane, or possessed; I'm going to pray for you

yes....please do. pray that he "figures it out" that Jesus Christ, and only Jesus Christ, is "the right way" and if and only if he accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, he will be accepted into heaven. if he could only be more like you and the millions of other Christians that pray to the "right" god and give themselves an opportunity for a life that will go on forever in heaven. as for the jews, muslims, buddhists, or anyone else really for that matter.....well.....sucks for them.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
23 May 2014 #57
as for the jews, muslims, buddhists, or anyone else really for that matter.....well.....sucks for them.

Or as MediaWatch said above: we are all people of low value. Why does that remind me of pope Pius XII?
Harry
23 May 2014 #58
As far as JPII's role in this goes, by the time the scandal hit, he was too old and decrepit to tackle the problem effectively or to stand up to elements in the Curia that didn't want to address it

But how old and decrepit was he when the RCC became aware of the problem?

child abuse is a problem within the RCC. who woulda thunk it....tens of thousands of men, all sworn to never ever touch a woman for the rest of their lives, many of them living together, wearing dresses and funny hats.

It really can't be a surprise to anybody that an organisation which employs people who have to hide their otherwise completely normal sex lives will also attract people who would anyway need to hide their sexual urges in order to void dying in prison.

you are criminally insane, or possessed

Is that now considered to be an acceptable thing to say to another poster? If it is, can all posters say it to other posters?
jon357 67 | 17,530
23 May 2014 #59
But how old and decrepit was he when the RCC became aware of the problem?

Perhaps the whole thing was just beyond his abilities and understanding.

There's a danger (look at PL) of seeing him as some sort of superman (the claims of infallibility don't help here), but he was basically very ordinary, banal and as Cardinal Winning's biography tells us, an extremely boring person. His very ordinariness (human touch??) is part of his (outside PL) appeal.
Lolek2
28 May 2014 #60
That is far from true.

No, this is not far from true.

The Pope". he moved up the ranks like everyone else.

yes, more of your fiction.


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