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Poles v Tusk's school 'reform'


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2013 #1
Nearly a million signatures have been collected amongst irate parents in protest against a government scheme to force children to start first form at age 6. AT present the starting age is 7 but there is a zero class or nursery form for 6-year-olds. True to form (no pun in tended), as he did re ACTA, Tusk is again pushing ahead with the unpopular measure despite widespread opposition.

Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Minister for Education Krystyna Szumilas government presented a draft amendment to the Law on the Education System . It is assumed that half of the six-year compulsory go to schools in September 2014. A year later - have all . A class for freshmen will count no more than 25 people.

Reduction of school age to six years raises a lot of controversy . Oppose reform of parents organized around action Ratujmaluchy.pl . Under the proposal for a referendum on the six-year gathered more than half a million signatures. Parents fear for example, that children aged six years are not yet ready to send them to school that classes are too large, and the age difference between students will not be conducive to the development of children.

delphiandomine 83 | 17,730
12 Jun 2013 #2
Polonius, please don't try and discuss things that you know nothing about. It's obvious that you have no idea why this reform is important, nor have you got any idea why it's being done in the first place. The fact that you've somehow twisted "over half a million" to "nearly a million" says it all about your agenda and blatant desire to attack Tusk for the slightest thing.

Let's see -

a) The school programme has already been adjusted to 6 year olds. The "nowa podstawa programowa" already takes into account the needs of 6 year olds in school, and has been designed for them.

b) Many complaints by the parents are quite clearly nonsense. For example - there are complaints that the toilet facilities aren't appropriate. How many of those parents have special child-sized toilets at home? Barely any.

c) The reform shall actually help divide classes according to age, which doesn't happen now. This way, we will avoid the mess of having kids born in January being in the same class as kids born in December - rather they will have less of a gap in classes.

d) Maximum class sizes will also decrease.
e) Poles (by the time they finish their education) are already very old - 24/25 in many cases. This one year helps put them on a more equal footing with their peers in Europe.

f) The conduct of the referendum campaign has been nothing short of ridiculous. I've seen an example where they were trying to convince schools to protest against this reform, despite the fact that it actually provides employment for teachers until we see the benefits of the latest baby boom.

g) Much of this "campaign" has been based on pure hysteria.
h) What about the kids from bad families? Compulsory schooling earlier helps take them away from a disruptive home environment and offers them some sort of stability throughout the day. The start of earlier compulsory schooling also helps families, as the carer can return to full time work faster.

i) Children elsewhere in the world manage to go to school at 4 and 5 - most of my peers and I started at 4. Didn't do us any harm.

j) It's very difficult to find kindergarten spaces in Poland. It's easy to find school places.

Polonius, what experience do you have with elementary education in Poland? Could you perhaps outline why 6 year olds shouldn't go to school?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2013 #3
In your books is 947,000 half a million? Don't you watch the TV news? They showed parents with boxes and boxes of petitions being delivered the Sejm and the news reader also mentioned the close to one million figure.

There's even a 'save the little kids' website: ratujmaluchy.pl
Lenka 3 | 1,442
12 Jun 2013 #4
The start of earlier compulsory schooling also helps families, as the carer can return to full time work faster.

I mostly agree with your post but as to the point quoted above- this doesn't really change anything in that respect since 0 grade was compulsory as well
delphiandomine 83 | 17,730
12 Jun 2013 #5
In your books is 947,000 half a million? Don't you watch the TV news? They showed parents with boxes and boxes of petitions being delivered the Sejm and the news reader also mentioned the close to one million figure.

Do you realise that many people signing this have no idea what they're talking about, or don't even have children?

Perhaps you might want to explain to us why it's a bad idea.

I mostly agree with your post but as to the point quoted above- this doesn't really change anything in that respect since 0 grade was compulsory as well

It just moves everything a year back - it's not a bad thing when you consider how many kids are growing up in difficult family circumstances.

There are, of course, good arguments against this reform - but I doubt that Polonius will actually tell us any. Still, we can but wait.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2013 #6
niezalezna.pl/42274-milion-polakow-przeciwko-reformie-edukacji

The so-called educational reform is not actually about education or children, explained a representative of the Parents' Rights Association. The government simply wants to push kids into the work force earlier so they can start paying their ZUS contributions sooner. So it's actually about trying to shore up the collapsing pension system. But it is all couched in fancy PR-style rhetoric as if the government were concerned with the educational welfare of Poland's chidren.

Merged: PiS plan major educational reform

PiS have announced plans to carry out a major reform of today's largely neglected educational system. This year an alarmingly low percentage of pupils passed their secondary-school-leaving exam, and many vocaitomnal schools have been closed. A National Curriculum Council will revamp existing curricula and draw up new reading lists for pupils. The current set-up will be radically modified: junior secondary school (middle school = gimnazjum) will be abolished and the traditonal 8 + 4 scheme will be restored.Youngsters will begin their education at agre 7. The reforms will bring the educational system more into line with the expectations and needs of the Polish nation and take parents' demand into greater account. The fact that schools in their present form have become hotbeds of social pathologies was among the reasons behind the reform.

wiadomosci.onet.pl/krakow/pis-chce-reformy-szkolnictwa-edukacja-zaniedbana-jak-stare-budynki/dkbkj
Jardinero 1 | 407
9 Sep 2015 #7
Radicalism is what is needed last. Going from one extreme to the next is not only plain dumb and irresponsible, totally disrespectful to the taxpayers' $, and accomplishes 3/5 of f*** all...
delphiandomine 83 | 17,730
9 Sep 2015 #8
PiS have announced plans to carry out a major reform of today's largely neglected educational system.

Neglected? Could you perhaps give us details on how the system is neglected, given that by all accounts, the standards are increasing year-on year?

This year an alarmingly low percentage of pupils passed their secondary-school-leaving exam

Just to remind you Polonius, the II RP education system that everyone talks so favourably about was very tough to pass. A lower percentage of kids passing is a good thing in many people's minds.

and many vocaitomnal schools have been closed

That trend started long before PO came into power.

A National Curriculum Council will revamp existing curricula and draw up new reading lists for pupils.

In other words, PiS will turn education (again) into politics. What's wrong with the existing cirricula? What about reading lists? Why does there need to be a PiS-appointed council to decide reading lists? Right now, the job is done by people with years of experience within education.

current set-up will be radically modified: junior secondary school (middle school = gimnazjum) will be abolished and the traditonal 8 + 4 scheme will be restored.

In other words, it will go completely against all the pedagogical evidence that shows that children benefit from a break point at the start of puberty - 11/12. It also goes against the fact that standards have risen dramatically since 8+4 was dropped. Oh, and it will also involve a costly reform at a time when the country still isn't rich.

Youngsters will begin their education at agre 7.

So we'll go back to adults in school at 19 years old. We'll also have them finishing university at 24/25, which means the birth rate will drop even further.

The reforms will bring the educational system more into line with the expectations and needs of the Polish nation and take parents' demand into greater account.

If it took the needs of Poland into account, then they would start school at 4 in order to get people paying social insurance quicker.

PiS are classic opportunists. They know that if they control education, they can control people. Classic communism.
landora - | 199
10 Sep 2015 #9
Traditional school system in Poland is not 8+4. The primary school lasting for 8 years it was introduced in 1961 by the Communist Party. So basically PiS is supporting communist solutions :D

Between the wars we had system consisting of primary school, gimnasium and high school, similar to the current system.

Many people failed their "matura" because of the fact that everyone now goes to high school. It's very good they failed - not everyone should have matura, not everyone should study.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Sep 2015 #10
communist solutions

That is a cheap propaganda trick by someone on the look-out for the slightest pretext to villify PiS. It would be like telling someone in a Passat: "You're driving a Nazi car!"

The US had 8 + 4 for decades - did that make it a communist country?

1961

Prior to then a 7 + 4 scheme was in force in Poland.
landora - | 199
10 Sep 2015 #11
We are talking about Poland, not about US. In Poland, the system without gimnasiums was slowly introduced AFTER 1945, by communists. Yes, at the beginning there were 7 classes of primary school, finally, in 1961, whole Poland was switched to 8 + 4 system. Before the II WW there were gymnasiums with so called "small matura", than high school and normal matura. It's not propaganda, it's facts. My grandparents went to school in this system.

So, right now people are terrified of having their "tiny" first graders together with the kids from 6th grade, and PiS wants to put much older teenagers back into primary schools? I must congratulate them on their logical thinking...
smurf 39 | 1,981
10 Sep 2015 #12
Youngsters will begin their education at agre 7.

hahahahahah!
Imagine not learning to read until 7!
7!
Chr!st on a bike, there are kids around the world with f!ckin college degrees by then.

PiS are a hoot though, I hope they get elected just so I can get a good laugh outta living here for a change.
G (undercover)
10 Sep 2015 #13
Clown, what you call school, we call kindergarten. Majority of kids can read and write (a least some) before they go school (the real one, not your pajama parties).
jon357 63 | 14,148
10 Sep 2015 #14
Youngsters will begin their education at age 7.

One issue is that with families moving between Poland and the UK etc, it's possible that a young child could be plucked out of kindergarten (which is not the same as an infant school) and find themselves mid way through Primary. Or vice versa. An odd situation.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
10 Sep 2015 #15
Imagine not learning to read until 7!
7!

yes well I would rather that than see babies in nappies and school uniforms like you see round here...
jon357 63 | 14,148
10 Sep 2015 #16
If a kid is still wearing nappies at 4, it suggests maybe a special school, however as far as I'm aware, very few if any have uniforms.

Unless it's some sort of private nursery (sounds expensive) that dresses them up.

We had uniforms at infant school (a good idea) but I never saw any nappies.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
10 Sep 2015 #17
they start at 2 year 10 months JOn these days. In primary school 'nurseries' (something like a pre reception class, not a 'special school'. Sad but true. they are not 'special needs' at all.

WE dont have expensive private nurseries with uniform in this town..:)
Maybe in London.

Back to Polish school reform please
jon357 63 | 14,148
10 Sep 2015 #18
It's actually relevant to both the Polish and the British systems and the current reforms - there's a shortage of pre-school places in both countries. Friends in both countries pay a small fortune (I was appalled when I heard how much people have to pay and of course most can't afford it) to get a place for their kids.

One particular issue in Poland that distorts everything and creates chaos is the fall in population numbers as well as large housing developments being built without anyone thinking about the effect on infrastructure. Near me in Warsaw there are a couple of new estates with thousands of flats (the place is a total Nappy Valley) and nobody in the local authority gave a moment's attention about where all the kids would go to school.
smurf 39 | 1,981
10 Sep 2015 #19
babies in nappies and school uniforms

babies in school uniforms?

Jaysus, what kind of f!cked up sh!t are you watching on the Internet. Most countries you'd be arrested for that.

Majority of kids can read and write

No they can't.
I actually worked in a preschool here....not called

kindergarten

either, that's a German word. Why would Polish people call a preschool using a German word? Maybe you're a secret German.....that's what Chairman Jaro calls Silesians :D

An odd situation.

A ridiculous one. I've a relation in England who is a school teacher. She said that she dreads seeing new Polish kids after every summer coz they are so utterly useless in classes, they can barely read or write their own language but she has to introduce simply maths to them in a language they're no idea about. And the parents expect her to work miracles on their kids and they can't even read!

Y'know, stupid people are just stupid.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
10 Sep 2015 #20
" aysus, what kind of f!cked up sh!t are you watching on the Internet "

Sadly it is in real life smurf, I noticed one screaming infant dolled up in uniform just yesterday.
I wonder what Polish parents think about it.
G (undercover)
10 Sep 2015 #21
"I actually worked in a preschool here...."

Another expat making career :)))) Seriously, they teach reading/writing in friggin zerówka and 4 years old can't attend any normal school, it's not a school.

"She said that she dreads seeing new Polish kids after every summer coz they are so utterly useless in classes"

Yeah, that's why our kids beats yours in almost every possible tests... dude stop jerking off, you will get blind...
jon357 63 | 14,148
10 Sep 2015 #22
She said that she dreads seeing new Polish kids after every summer coz they are so utterly useless in classes, they can barely read or write their own language

I've heard the same, as well as teachers brought in from Poland who find it hard t cope with a broad curriculum. They're used to telling things to kids rather than showing them how to find out.

Those years of missed education in Poland are valuable ones.
Harry
10 Sep 2015 #23
Yeah, that's why our kids beats yours in almost every possible tests

Remind me how many Polish universities are ranked in the top three hundred worldwide (helpful hint: it's less than one). Then remind me how many British ones are ranked in the top ten worldwide (helpful hint: it's three).

Sadly the proposed PIS 'reform' is not going to change that problem at all.
G (undercover)
10 Sep 2015 #24
"Remind me how many Polish universities are ranked in the top three hundred worldwide (helpful hint: it's less than one). Then remind me how many British ones are ranked in the top ten worldwide (helpful hint: it's three)."

LOL ! Hilarious. Yeah let's forget for a while that I am talking about tests that actually check skills and you are talking about several British universities full of both students and teachers from around the world and the rankings actually check things like "citations per faculty", "career opportunities" and so on. Way to go Harold ;)))))
Harry
10 Sep 2015 #25
Yeah let's forget for a while that I am talking about tests that actually check skills

The problem with the Polish education system (speaking as somebody who spent years teaching in it) is that the main 'skill' taught is how to memorise things; understanding things very much takes a back-seat. That's all well and good at lower levels but has a very low ceiling.

you are talking about several British universities full of both students and teachers from around the world

If you bothered to look at the ranking, you'd see that the UK has 37 universities in the top 300. Poland has none. That's a damning indictment of the Polish education system.

the rankings actually check things like "citations per faculty", "career opportunities" and so on.

Sad that the Polish education system is so bad that even its top university can't be one of the best 300 in the world when it comes to things like "citations per faculty", "career opportunities" and so on. I'd very much like to see that change but the PIS proposal for reform will just make things worse.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,730
10 Sep 2015 #26
Clown, what you call school, we call kindergarten. Majority of kids can read and write (a least some) before they go school (the real one, not your pajama parties).

Wrong. Kids in nurseries in Poland do not learn to read and write. Many private nurseries might teach them anyway, but public ones usually don't.

Seriously, they teach reading/writing in friggin zerówka

No, they don't. Try reading the programme sometime, clown.

And I know this because I also teach kids to write, and I know what my first class kids can and can't do ;)

Sadly the proposed PIS 'reform' is not going to change that problem at all.

PiS wouldn't dare touch anything that was introduced by the Communists. University autonomy, was, after all, a PRL invention.

They really do seem rather keen on their PRL-era systems.
RubasznyRumcajs 5 | 468
10 Sep 2015 #27
yes, Polish kids are great in memorising the knowledge. ZZZZ* reminds you something? How does the Poland stay in the field of innovation? Is it still between Romania and Bulgaria?

*for those unfamiliar it means: Zakuć, Zdać, Zapić, Zapomnieć
InPolska 11 | 1,821
10 Sep 2015 #28
@Ruba! Yes! I have been for years around a lot of Polish school kids, both from public and (expensive) private schools and I can conclude that they only learn to memorize, they don't learn how to think, to analize things .... Pure little parots! Probably some leftover from communism (= thinking people are dangerous).
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
10 Sep 2015 #29
I must say I have always been impressed by the mental arithemetic skills of Polish students, compared to us Brits.
However I must also say that the inventive ways of cheating I was shown shocked me!!
InPolska 11 | 1,821
10 Sep 2015 #30
As to cheating, in Poland, it is almost normal to keep books and notes wide opened on the desk and to go through them while taking exams and most students do. I am very skeptical about alot of Polish diploma holders ;)


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