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How do Poles feel about the outcome of Germany's elections?


OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
27 Sep 2013 #61
Depends folks on whom you call "flag wavers". If you mean do-or-die, my-country-right-or-wrong nationalists, then I'd agree. Yet, being partiotic in a balanced fashion surely wouldn't offend most Germans. Indeed Germans have much to be proud of in their history, the 1933-'45 period nothwithstanding!! The latter was clearly NO abberation, but the ineluctable conclusion to a long and tragic death of Judeo-Christian enlightenment as we know it.
jon357 63 | 14,152
27 Sep 2013 #62
What does patriotism really mean though. That's something that people discuss without ever reaching a precise meaning.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
27 Sep 2013 #63
Exactly, jon! Patriotism means many different things to many different people. To me, for instance, partiotism's not about hoisting an Eagle in front of my front lawn and blaring Wagner's "Ride of the Walkyren" to annoy my neighbors (actually impossible in Germany due to their strict regulations regarding noiseLOL). Patriotism's more about a shared pride in Germany's tremendous, to be sure in some areas, immeasurable accomplishments in the arts, sciences, technology, R&D etc..
jon357 63 | 14,152
27 Sep 2013 #64
Yes. Patriotism is about what you feel inside rather than an outward expression of that in itself. That can be a sign of false patriotism - an attachment to the flag waving - as much as anything else. And it's very much about ones country rather than ones roots.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
27 Sep 2013 #65
Distinguish then between partiotism vs. NATIONALISM!! There's the rub. The latter's what the soccer houligans practice, not the former:-)
Irm2
28 Sep 2013 #66
Recovered territories anyone? Ignoring or downplaying centuries of Prussian/German influence in the region? Reducing German history in Poland to the brief period of WW2? You call that objective and impartial?

When last you have seen Polish history textbooks? 40 years ago? It is not true on so many levels for over 20 years, what are you even talking about?

Of course not, but we were talking about Poland, weren't we?

It doesn't mean you have to go overt the top about it. Intelligent person would make comparison to other countries.
TheOther 5 | 3,831
28 Sep 2013 #67
what are you even talking about?

We were talking about Polish commies manipulating historic facts. Have at least the courtesy to read what is written in this thread.

It is not true on so many levels for over 20 years

Yet PiS followers continue to talk about that sh*t to this very day. Are you one of them by any chance?
Irm2
28 Sep 2013 #68
Have at least the courtesy to read what is written in this thread.

Are you for real? I think you should apply what you preach.
Look for yourself what you wrote :

Irm2: I think Poland historiographyat the moment is most objective and impartial
Recovered territories anyone? Ignoring or downplaying centuries of Prussian/German influence in the region? Reducing German history in Poland to the brief period of WW2? You call that objective and impartial?

Maybe youshould read what you respond to.

Yet PiS followers continue to talk about that sh*t to this very day. Are you one of them by any chance?

No, i don't have tendency to talk about sh*t. If you be so kind as to wrote what do you mean by that we could at Least pretend to have a meaningful discussion. Instead one sides shots someone with a phobia.
jon357 63 | 14,152
28 Sep 2013 #69
Distinguish then between partiotism vs. NATIONALISM!! There's the rub. The latter's what the soccer houligans practice, not the former:-)

The post you were replying to largely covers it, however to expand, we can say that Nationalism is a political idea. What soccer hooligans, Jarosław Kaczynski, the wrong sort of flag wavers practise isn't anything really - not so much a political philosophy as just liking the costume.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #70
???? Jarosław Kaczyński a flag waver?? Must have missed something here!
jon357 63 | 14,152
28 Sep 2013 #71
Evidently you must have.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #72
And "evidently" what "must" that have been, pray tell?
Szczepanski
28 Sep 2013 #73
What 300 years are you talking about ?
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #74
If Germans feel they're supposed to feel guilty about being culturally patriotic as Germans, how then do the Poles feel about being Polish?

To whom are you directing your query, Szczepański?
Barney 14 | 1,469
28 Sep 2013 #75
If Germans feel they're supposed to feel guilty about being culturally patriotic as Germans, how then do the Poles feel about being Polish?

That is what makes it impossible to define either patriotism or Nationalism, What I meant by flag wavers is more a manifestation of political extremism but this is unsatisfactory as you end up with both parties calling each other extreme.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #76
In The Federal Republic, someone who says "Ich bin stolz, Deutsche(r) zu sein!" = I'm proud to be German! = Jestem dumy(a) być Niemcem(ką) is immediately suspect of being a nut job, some sort of subversive and might even risk an unwanted encounter with local law enforcement! In Poland, is the sentence "Jestem dumy(a) być Polakiem(ką)!" enough to cause fur to fly as it would in Germany?

My point is simply that in certain European countries, national pride remains an open wound!
TheOther 5 | 3,831
28 Sep 2013 #77
I think Poland historiography at the moment is most objective and impartial

So all the millions of kids that passed through the communist school system and who make up the majority of the Polish population today are all of sudden "enlightened" and don't believe that historic nonsense that they were taught as kids any longer? Don't give me that you-know-what. You only have to go to the former GDR to see how all this indoctrination from the past is still alive and well. Poland is of course different... :)

In The Federal Republic, someone who says "Ich bin stolz, Deutsche(r) zu sein!" = I'm proud to be German! = Jestem dumy(a) być Niemcem(ką) is immediately suspect of being a nut job

Exactly.
Barney 14 | 1,469
28 Sep 2013 #78
My point is simply that in certain European countries, national pride remains an open wound!

That is something they are going to have to work out for themselves nationalism is not a problem in the vast majority of European countries.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #79
Poland is of course different because the Gomułka Era is but a distant memory to any contemporary Pole under at least 60!!! The GDR lasted far longer and went FAR, far deeper into the marrow of the nation. See the deeply moving "Lives of Others" to appreciate what I'm saying. Furthermore, Wojciech Jaruszelski was many things, but he was certainly no Walther Ulbricht:-)
TheOther 5 | 3,831
28 Sep 2013 #80
Poland is of course different because the Gomułka Era is but a distant memory to any contemporary Pole under at least 60!

We were talking about Polish commies manipulating historic facts in school education. Just take a good look around PF and you will notice that even here the old commie "spirit" is still around.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #81
To which "commie" spirit are you referring, TheOther? I see mostly capitalism alive and well and living in Cracow! Check out the article from last year some time "Krakow: Cud nad Wisłą" and tell me that the spirit of pre-Solidarność Poland is still as palpable:)
TheOther 5 | 3,831
28 Sep 2013 #82
To which "commie" spirit are you referring

The spirit of "Recovered Territories". People who still come up with that nonsense just changed colors - from commie red to PiS brown ...

My point is that you cannot get education out of people's head easily. You grow up with certain ideas, and these ideas will follow you for the rest of your life. Poland is no different than the ex GDR in this respect. When the 20 something's have finally taken over in Poland, things might change.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #83
In fields such as mechanical engineering perhaps this is so, but one always reads in the foreign press about the young generation of Polish entrepreneurs in the IT industry etc....

How does that square with what you've said?
TheOther 5 | 3,831
28 Sep 2013 #84
How does that square with what you've said?

Let me answer this with a quote from the Warsaw Business Journal ...

Quote:
"Poland's main opposition party Law and Justice (PiS) would receive 35 percent of the vote if parliamentary elections were held today."

...and repeat your question: how does that square with what you've said?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,732
28 Sep 2013 #85
The spirit of "Recovered Territories". People who still come up with that nonsense just changed colors - from commie red to PiS brown ...

Yes. There is an excellent post somewhere on this forum that shows how they did just that - and how much of what PiS come out with these days is regurgitated Nazi/Commie nonsense. The stuff blaming the UK for betraying Poland was straight out of the Communist textbook on how to brainwash a population, and yet is believed by PiS supporters.
OP Wlodzimierz 4 | 544
28 Sep 2013 #86
Thanks, Delphadomine!

Yes, I just checked out the article and it suggests to me anyway that Tusk needs to do a lot more to court foreign businesses within Poland. That the Democrats are gaining in polls taken by a clearly partisan source, I'm reminded of what Towarzysz Lenin is supposed to have said umpteen years back "It's not WHO votes that counts, it's HOW you count the votes!

Happy SaturdayLOL
Irm2
29 Sep 2013 #87
So all the millions of kids that passed through the communist school system and who make up the majority of the Polish population today are all of sudden "enlightened" and don't believe that historic nonsense that they were taught as kids any longer?

Try again. You again failed to comprehend my post and you are ranting about what seems your obsession but what has nothing to do with what I said.

Come on what bothers you come clean!
If you have some mental blockade just specify what historical nonsense you have in mind. Be specific - no ranting allowed.
TheOther 5 | 3,831
29 Sep 2013 #88
Funny thing is, everybody understood except for you. Anyway, I won't be wasting another minute with some dubious individual who hasn't even signed up on this web site.
Irm2
29 Sep 2013 #89
Yes, run away form debate you are loosing totally run away craven.
TheOther 5 | 3,831
29 Sep 2013 #90
Don't be silly, Ironside... :)


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