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Pole loses language discrimination case in Germany; Scandalous!


Crow 136 | 7,370
26 Jul 2010  #1
Pole loses language discrimination case in Germany

08.01.2010 15:33
thenews.pl/international/artykul123376_pole-loses-language-discrimination-case-in-germany.html

The District Court in Hamburg has dismissed a discrimination case against the German Youth Affairs Office after it refused to allow a Polish father to speak to his children in Polish.

Thirty nine year-old Wojciech Pomorski, a Polish teacher who has been living in Germany since the 1980s, demanded a written apology and 15,000 euro compensation from the Youth Affairs Office (Jugendamt) in Hamburg because it did not allow him to speak Polish with his two daughters when visiting them.

His original court petition, dating back to 2006, reads: "The petitioner, who fled to Germany in the 1980s for political reasons, has spoken Polish to his daughters since their birth, this being the language in which he is best able to express himself. He argues that the German authorities are seriously infringing his fundamental rights and have failed to respect his cultural and linguistic identity."

Olaf 6 | 956
26 Jul 2010  #2
No matter the country or nation - this is ridiculous!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Jul 2010  #3
This has been in this forum before. It's old news. I don't think the language is the important part in this case, but the fact that he can only see his kids supervised. This probably means there is some history, be this abuse, violence or manipulation. I think that is the main reason as to why he is not allowed to speak Polish to his daughters: because the supervisors when seeing his kids don't speak Polish.

Could be resolved though by getting a Polish speaking supervisor. But he lives in Germany, all the institutions are German, why would they get a Polish supervisor for just one guy?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,531
26 Jul 2010  #4
That's the question that people haven't answered - why is he only allowed to see them supervised? Seems rather odd to me as well.

Could be resolved though by getting a Polish speaking supervisor. But he lives in Germany, all the institutions are German, why would they get a Polish supervisor for just one guy?

I'm almost certain that in Poland, a German speaking man with supervised access only would be prohibited from speaking German to the children.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #5
Could be resolved though by getting a Polish speaking supervisor.

The article says he is only forbidden to speak polish IF the Jugendamt has no polish speaking supervisor ready...
So sometimes they have, but sometimes they have not.
When they have on he can speak polish to his children to his hearts content.

But I agree...if the wife has the sole right of contact and access and he can see them only under supervision there has to be definitely some history with this guy!

The Jugendamts first duty is the security of the children and youth...

But he lives in Germany, all the institutions are German, why would they get a Polish supervisor for just one guy?

There are of course social worker who speak more languages than only German...they come from all circles of the society...some speak turkish, arabic, italian, greek, spanish and of course polish too.

But they won't have a polish speaking one committed to this special case only!
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
26 Jul 2010  #6
Bratwurst Boy why is it that Poles are not recognized as an ethnic minority in Germany, we've been there for centuries, as you say we integrate well, we're Christian Europeans there's 1 to 2 million of us there, what's the problem? Germans whom there are 150,000 in Poland(not counting people of mixed background who feel Polish) have 2 representatives in parliament, all the minority rights, there are 273 Communes with bilingual Polish/German names.

Polish gminy
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Jul 2010  #7
@Bratwurst:

I found the comments on the article hilarious and predictable. If a guy is prohibited from seeing his children without supervision, there must be some reason for that. Instead everybody starts to scream discrimination and all that jazz, simply bypassing the most important point of the article.

And besides, if this guy is living for nearly 30 years in Germany, he should be able to express himself thoroughly in German. If he still can't and he is a teacher, perhaps that says sth about his capabilities as a teacher? And why can a seperated teacher only see his kids under supervision? Makes me worry a bit about the kids he is supposed to teach.

>^..^<

M-G (yay!)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #8
Bratwurst Boy why is it that Poles are not recognized as an ethnic minority in Germany, we've been there for centuries, as you say we integrate well,

God, how often do I have to explain this...
Okay...again:

Poles are not a native (autochthone) minority in Germany as are the Sorbs in Saxony/Brandenburg or people who became a minority as the Danes in Schleswig-Holstein due border shifting.

Poles immigrated into Germany for political and/or economical reasons...they are as much an ethnic minority as the Turks and the Spanish and the Italians and the Greeks and all the others who came to Germany for work over the time.

Germans in Poland on the other hand became a minority in Poland because of border shifting. They are a native minority as the Danes who live now in Schleswig-Holstein. (The Germans in Danmark on the other side of the border of Schleswig-Holstein have the same minority rights).

Can you spot the differences?

PS: There IS a polish council in Germany and they ARE getting funds from Germany!

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polnischer_Kongress_in_Deutschland
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund_der_Polen_in_Deutschland
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-Polnische_Gesellschaft_Bundesverband
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-Polnische_Gesellschaft_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutschland
prwn.de
konwent.de
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
26 Jul 2010  #9
Can you spot the differences?

Yes i can. I know there are 3 million Turks in Germany who came as Gastarbeiters in the 1950's, i've heard that originally Germany wanted the workers to be Polish except Russians pressured us not to go and work in Germany because just a few years before WW2 happened and many tragic things, so it was decided otherwise, is this true??
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #10
i've heard that originally Germany wanted the workers to be Polish

Erm...that was before my time...I have no idea.
But for sure Poles would had been the better solution to people from so far away culturally and mentally like Turks.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
26 Jul 2010  #11
found the comments on the article hilarious and predictable. If a guy is prohibited from seeing his children without supervision, there must be some reason for that

There's none, not even officially.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
26 Jul 2010  #12
If a guy is prohibited from seeing his children without supervision, there must be some reason for that.

That's probably true, it is possible, if not probable that this man was abusive in some manner. There is, however, room for some doubt. For example, it is common for women in the U.S. (don't know about Germany) to make false accusations of domestic violence or child abuse, etc. and it's done to win full custody of the kids. Too often, not much, if any evidence is needed (many, many examples provided on request).

Instead everybody starts to scream discrimination and all that jazz,

That's true, I don't care who does it but that whole race issue is so overplayed that it has become sickening.

if this guy is living for nearly 30 years in Germany, he should be able to express himself thoroughly in German.

He probably can. Perhaps he wants to speak in Polish (world's most difficult language?) so that his kids can retain a part of their heritage?

The language supervision aspect is an interesting one and I will ask one of my feminist attorney acquaintances if there is a similar requirement in the states.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Jul 2010  #13
There's none, not even officially.

How do you know?

It doesn't mention anything, only that he can see his kids while supervised. The German Jugendamt is a sophisticated institution, they won't do that for nothing.

>^..^<

M-G (enjoying some good pasta salad as early dinner)
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
26 Jul 2010  #14
But for sure Poles would had been the better solution to people from so far away culturally and mentally like Turks.

I agree with that, Turks are wannabe Europeans, Nicolas Sarkozy isn't far off saying "there's no place for them in Europe, Turkey is not in Europe but Asia Minor, if it was we'd know about it" just cause they got a tiny bit of land doesn't make them Europeans, most their country is in Asia, they're not white and therefore not original Europeans, they came from central Asia originally.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #15
Too often, not much, if any evidence is needed (many, many examples provided on request).

Well, yes...we have this pro-mother bias in Germany too. The fathers are often in a difficult situation to prove who is right and wrong.

There was just recently a new law installed which should help fathers to fight better for their rights in cases of acknowledgement of paternity and divorces.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Jul 2010  #16
@Pennboy

Nope, we're not gonna discuss Third-Worlders coming to Europe, ok?

This is about a guy who for some reason can only see his kids while supervised by the German Jugendamt and is refused to speak Polish instead of German during those occasions and that some ppl miss the point of the article by crying the racism-wolf.

>^..^<

M-G (yay!)
guzzler 1 | 88
26 Jul 2010  #17
But I agree...if the wife has the sole right of contact and access and he can see them only under supervision there has to be definitely some history with this guy!
The Jugendamts first duty is the security of the children and youth...

I agree he must have been slagging off the wife to the kids, and that is why he is not allowed see the kids unaccompanied. They have the same law in the UK, If he has been in Germany 30 years and teaches he must have a good command of German. He is trying it on, to make a bit of compensation and get back at the state.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
26 Jul 2010  #18
He's 39 years old. That means he was a kid when he came to Germany, which in turn means that he followed his entire education minus perhaps a few years of elementary school in Germany. And then he still claims that Polish is the language in which he can express himself the best? Come on, the guy starts to look a bit like a scam.

>^..^<

M-G (yay!)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
26 Jul 2010  #19
Usually when you go through divorce and there is an issue of custody a male suddenly becomes abusive, wife-beater, child-molestor, drunkard, drug-user, marichuana-over-child'-crib-smoker etc......So the child has to be "protected" from his/her father. Women have here an obvious advantage over men. So supervised visitation may often be a nice fantasy game by child's mother.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #20
This may all be....we don't know enough about it but to make this as a "mean Nazi-Germans discriminating against poor Poles because of racism" - case is just ridiculous!
kondzior 8 | 944
26 Jul 2010  #21
I many times have seen reportages describig cases like that in Polish TV. This Jugendamt thing is apparently notorious for stealing children of Poles living in, and even sometimes just visiting, Germany. Sadly, for some reason our government refuses to take any steps about it.

It was strongly suggested that neo nazism is prevalent in the ranks of Judgendant, but I don't know how much truth is in it.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #22
This Jugendamt thing is apparently notorious for stealing children of Poles living in,

Blahblahblah

Crap!

Sadly, for some reason our government refuses to take any steps about it.

Wonder why?

Better stop believing your tabloid press!

It was strongly suggested that neo nazism is prevalent in the ranks of Judgendant,

Yeah sure...definitely, that is it!
mafketis 19 | 6,850
26 Jul 2010  #23
Leaving aside any he said/she said scenarios, the fact remains that in Germany Polish is hardly some rare exotic language like Zulu or Telugu. It's a disgrace that the office in question is too incompetent to provide Polish speaking staff (or interpreters).

Since he has visitation rights, then he should be able to speak to his children in Polish. Shame on Germany for this.

Would an English speaker be treated like this?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
26 Jul 2010  #24
the fact remains that in Germany Polish is hardly some rare exotic language like Zulu or Telugu.

For non-Poles it is.
I don't know anybody who speaks it...only Poles or relatives speak it.
It's like Zulu for Germanics...

It's a disgrace that the office in question is too incompetent to provide Polish speaking staff (or interpreters).

Stop living in Germany and move back to Poland - a better alternative if Germany is so disgraceful to poor Poles, and voila...no problems with the Jugendamt anymore.

Would an English speaker be treated like this?

Everybody speaks english...it wouldn't be as hard to find an english speaking social worker!

Since he has visitation rights, then he should be able to speak to his children in Polish. Shame on Germany for this.

Maybe he is raping or beating his children when nobody looks...yeah shame on Germany for trying to prevent it!
mafketis 19 | 6,850
27 Jul 2010  #25
.only Poles or relatives speak it.
It's like Zulu for Germanics...

But Poland shares a border with Germany. Polish is the fifth (or sixth) most spoken language in the EU. IT doesn't say anything good about Germany if Germans think of it like Zulu.

Everybody speaks english...it wouldn't be as hard to find an english speaking social worker!

My point is an English speaker would never meet the kind of discrimination in Germany that Poles routinely meet.

Maybe he is raping or beating his children when nobody looks...

then why does he even have visitation? If it can be proved then he should have no visitation, if it can't be proved then don't micromanage parent-child relations.

I remember a similar case from a few years ago where a judge ruled that one parent speaking Polish to the child could have a harmful effect on their linguistic development. I'll admit that that bit of ignorance has colored my view of German judicial attitudes toward Polish parents.
kondzior 8 | 944
27 Jul 2010  #26
Apperantly if parents do not have job and rent one room flat it is reason enough to take away a kid and not lest parents talk with their child in Polish.

There are thousands cases, check here:
jugendamt-wesel.com/CEED_eng.htm
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,605
27 Jul 2010  #27
But Poland shares a border with Germany. Polish is the fifth (or sixth) most spoken language in the EU. IT doesn't say anything good about Germany if Germans think of it like Zulu.

Well, it's a fact...take it or leave it.
Some Ossis were forced to learn russian back in the day but that was it.

My point is an English speaker would never meet the kind of discrimination in Germany that Poles routinely meet.

Nope...
The case was that the Jugendamt forbade him to speak polish if they can't provide a polish-speaking social worker who understands what he is telling his children.

If the same fear for the children would be about english-speaking children the action token would be the same. But as there are english-speaking socialworkers much easier to find you won't hear about such problems.

And leave it to the Poles to take an absolutely ordinary handling of such a case and make it to a "those mean Germans hate us poor Poles and steal our children and discriminate us and are all around to bad to us bwaah bwaah" - case!

then why does he even have visitation? If it can be proved then he should have no visitation, if it can't be proved then don't micromanage parent-child relations.

Wot? You don't have all the answers to these questions? You don't know much about this case at all? You have no idea about the background and why the Jugendamt does what it does?

Can't be!

Why don't just stay with "The Germans just don't like Poles and do everything to spite us!"
It's so much easier!

I remember a similar case from a few years ago where a judge ruled that one parent speaking Polish to the child could have a harmful effect on their linguistic development.

Maybe it's still the same case....

PS: Germany's big town ghettos are full of future-welfare-recipients whose parents didn't took the pain to speak with their offspring the language of the host country...now they have no school certificate, can't get any better education nor jobs!

The Jugendamt has a point here too..

There are thousands cases, check here:

Why don't they just leave and go back to Poland!
NeoNazi-Germany must be a horrible place to be for polish subhumans and their offspring.
I really wonder why they still queue up and want in!
mafketis 19 | 6,850
27 Jul 2010  #28
You don't know much about this case at all?

I know just as much as you do in your touching faith in the power of impersonal and unaccountable bureaucracy....

NeoNazi-Germany must be a horrible place to be for polish subhumans

Did you just say that?
Borrka 37 | 594
27 Jul 2010  #29
I don't know anybody who speaks it...only Poles or relatives speak it.

There are more than one million so called Spaetausiedler aus Polen in Germany.
People with German roots but they speak better Polish than their "native" German language.
To find Polish interpretor (German citizen) is quite easy in West-Germany.
kondzior 8 | 944
27 Jul 2010  #30
They would like to return to Poland, many of them at the very least. But that would mean leaving their kids in Germany.
It is not just Polish issue, really. Check this:
il.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVJplQQQx4&feature=related


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