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Visegrad Battle Group under the command of Poland


Crow 137 | 7,756
16 Jun 2011 #151
boletus

thanks for the link. i have great hope in Poland`s presents here in the region. Polish influence on Croatia would for sure minimize German and Turkish influence on western Balkan.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
18 Jun 2011 #152
Would be nice to see visegrad 4 develop not only into military and security alliance.

You are right...This is a step in the right direction toward Slavic co-operation: In unity there is strength, and it just makes good sense because of difficulties with the EU...Economic co-operation, yes, very good.
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
18 Jun 2011 #153
Yes, however not everything is so cosy.

In an interview with Slovak daily Hospodarske Noviny two weeks ago, Kover said that the Hungarian nation cannot give up any of its components; ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia belong to the nation both in a spiritual and a cultural sense.

Kover also referred to Slovakia's constructing a water barrage system on the river Danube, through which, he said, Slovakia had relocated the border between the two countries. In the 1990s Hungary made an attempt to resolve the situation through international law, though it could have even used military force, Kover said in the interview.

politics.hu/20110617/slovak-pm-rejects-hungarian-house-speakers-insult

During the "Visegrad Four" meeting of prime ministers, in Bratislava on Thursday, in private conversation with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, Slovak Prime Minister Radicova said that such expressions were harmful for good neighbourly relations between the two countries.

Orban responded that he would make a personal effort to promote cooperation between Hungary and Slovakia, and voiced "Hungary's respect and esteem for all well-wishing Slovaks". Concerning Hungary's new constitution, Orban said that it did not pose a threat of any kind to Slovakia.
King Of North - | 1
18 Jun 2011 #154
This is exactly what Poland needs to do. Strengthen its European ties. Even more importantly with countries in its own geographical region who would actually care about what happens to it. I really hope this succeeds and expands further south to Serbia and other Slavic nations.

What are you talking about. Poland has no what so ever any cultural or historical relations to Serbia or Balkan. And it would be a crazy idea to start to having one...
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
20 Jun 2011 #155
Poland has no what so ever any cultural or historical relations to Serbia or Balkan.

There are certainly some common indirect interests - underlined by the "Carpathian Convention" formed in 2003 by the seven European countries that share the striking Carpathian Mountain range: Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Serbia, and Ukraine. The countries decided to join forces to guarantee sustainable development of tourism in this unique area, while also protecting its ecosystem.

The Carpathians are not just one of Europe's largest mountain ranges, a unique natural treasure of great beauty and ecological value, and home of the headwaters of major rivers. They also constitute a major ecological, economic, cultural, recreational and living environment in the heart of Europe, shared by numerous peoples and countries.

carpathianconvention.org/index

On 25-27 May 2011, high-level representatives of Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Slovak Republic and Ukraine, as well as representatives from the European Commission and International Organizations met in Bratislava for the Third Meeting of the Conference of the Parties (COP3) to the Carpathian Convention. In line with the United Nations International Year of Forests, the seven states agreed to further cooperate and strengthen their efforts in order to protect, maintain and sustainably manage forests in the Carpathians. The legal framework has been established through the adoption of the Protocol on Sustainable Forest Management to the Carpathian Convention. The Protocol on Sustainable Tourism was also adopted.

forestportal.efi.int/content/view/226/15
Crow 137 | 7,756
20 Jun 2011 #156
What are you talking about. Poland has no what so ever any cultural or historical relations to Serbia or Balkan. And it would be a crazy idea to start to having one...

why do you upset me with your posts?

Everybody sane knows that Poles and Serbs goes hand in hand.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
20 Jun 2011 #157
I'm surprised a Swede came out with that ignorant statement, Crow
Crow 137 | 7,756
20 Jun 2011 #158
me, too. Just two thousand years ago they were proud Serbs
Seanus 15 | 19,706
21 Jun 2011 #159
And now they are wannabe Scots ;)
Crow 137 | 7,756
22 Jun 2011 #160
tell me Sean, is that truth that Scots regularly serve as guard of British Queen? Do you know that Serbians were guardians of Maria Teresa, during Austro-Hungaria? Teresia had hot love for her Serbian guardians
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
22 Jun 2011 #161
On June 10 the first deputy foreign minister of the Czech Republic Jiri SCHNEIDER visited Ukraine to patch a recent diplomatic spat between the two countries. In the interview with the Ukrainian Deń he talked openly about Visegrad-Ukraine relationship and Ukrainian perspectives in the the framework of the Eastern Partnership.

When asked about the decision to create Visegrad Battle Group and how it compared to Piłsudski's idea of intermarium he answered that there was no geopolitics involved and this was just a pragmatic model to have a military capability to do things on the mandate of the Security Council of the United Nations: peacekeeping, peacemaking, etc. When asked about the reason that this was happening currently he cited some bud­getaway constraints, more humble national aspirations and greater openness to share the burden and to save the resources by doing things together.

In terms of past Ukraine's military cooperation with Poland, proposed cooperation with Poland and Lithuania (L-P-U Battle Group) or with the Visegrad Battle Group he said he was very open to such concepts. He explained that the idea of Ukraine joining the EU defence operations and also the NATO defence operations would make a lot of sense - especially in terms of cooperation in anti-piracy operations. He stressed that Ukraine's airlift capability would make it a very useful partner for Visegrad, EU and NATO.

Finally he expressed his thoughts about perspectives of Ukraine in Eastern Partnership.

"The Eastern Partnership cannot be successful without Ukraine being fully onboard. I mean, initially Ukraine was cautious about the Eastern Partnership and there were two types of criticism. The first was 'if it's not membership, we're not interested,' while the second was 'wait a minute, Ukraine deserves a special relationship, not as part of a group.' I think we are now entering a very pragmatic phase, with the Ukrai­nian go­vernment realizing that this is not everything, but it does provide some opportunities - opportunities for improving bilateral relations with the European Union and having them produce some concrete effects. So if Ukraine is fully present at the concept and endorses it, I think then we will have success. I'd like me to be clear: without Ukraine the Eastern Partnership cannot be a success."

Stratfor has just recently published its Geopolitical Weekly, entitled: "The Divided States of Europe", by Marko Papic:

stratfor.com/weekly/20110627-divided-states-europe

Somewhere down the page there is a map showing Europe's Evolving Spheres of Influence. The author identifies and describes various spheres of influence as shown in the map: German, Nordic, Visegrad-plus, Mediterranean, Turkish, "Free Radicals" and Undeclared. Of those I only quote a fragment related to Visegrad Group.

Visegrad-plus (Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria). At the moment, the Visegrad Four belong to different spheres of influence. The Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary do not feel as exposed to Russia's resurgence as Poland or Romania do. But they also are not completely satisfied with Germany's attitude toward Russia. Poland is not strong enough to lead this group economically the way Sweden dominates the Nordic bloc. Other than security cooperation, the Visegrad countries have little to offer each other at the moment. Poland intends to change that by lobbying for more funding for new EU member states in the next six months of its EU presidency. That still does not constitute economic leadership.

There are few good points in the article.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
30 Jun 2011 #162
Oh boy...he talks as if regionalization is something new!

aer.eu

Typical Stratfor! No understanding of Europe at all.
The unifying of Europe implies the weakening of the Nationstates (and their spheres of influence) and a strenghtening of the regions and regionalisation. It's a natural process.

And it's developing for years now....
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
30 Jun 2011 #163
And it's developing for years now....

Marko Papic did not claim anything revolutionary in regionalization concept he described. He has shown his own view of today's snapshot of Europe plus some tea leaves divination of the future. So where did he go wrong in you opinion?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
30 Jun 2011 #164
So where did he go wrong in you opinion?

He poses regionalization as an option...as something bad and to avoid.
That's typical american Stratfor. Also he tries to asses countries with Russia as the benchmark. That is soooo yesteryear!
Europe, the World and even Russia too have really other concerns today. The cold war is over.
(Somebody should really tell Stratfor)

All these talks about spheres of influence would mean something if it would be still about a pot of nationstates, wrangling with a plethora of alliances...but there are news for Stratfor: Most of them are now members of the European Union, the NATO and many even share the same currency, things have really developed.

There still exist spheres but they are now historically and culturally only.
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
30 Jun 2011 #165
That's typical american Stratfor. Also he tries to asses countries with Russia as the benchmark. That is soooo yesteryear!
Europe, the World and even Russia too have really other concerns today. The cold war is over.

I know you do not like Stratfor - you already told me that some time ago. And I am sure you have good understanding of Europe - or at least YOUR understanding. But what you just said above is just wishful thinking - which I would happily share with you if I believed it. But I do not - the reality is not that pretty.

Let me translate for you few fragments from today's article in TVN24.pl:

Shield in Poland? The Russian military will find an "answer"

Just to remind you, it is not Poland that pushes for the system alone - it is NATO. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, NATO secretary general said last month that "mutual anti-rocket defense system is not possible with Russia."

Now, let us move few years back to the archives, which demonstrate quite clearly who Mr. Rogozin is.

2008-06-19:
Russian ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin in the interview to "Izvestia" warned Ukraine that it will "creak at the seams" if it tries to join NATO.

2008-02-04
- I would like to remind you that any attempts to align Poland along "confrontational lines" have always led to tragedies. During World War II, Poland lost nearly one-third of its population - said Dmitry Rogozin, Russia's representative to NATO.

2008-02-04

Rogozin is a nationalist politician, sent by the Kremlin to Brussels, as the new ambassador to NATO. His role is to frighten the Western media using colorful rhetoric and visions of disasters caused by disregard for Russia's geopolitical interests. Even in Moscow Rogozin is not treated quite seriously and is sometimes called "a clown for special tasks"

Well, a clown he may be, but he represents Russia.

So BB, the cold war is over? Yes I know Germany would like to cosy up with Russia, and for at least two good reasons. And Stratfor clearly shows it in the article we talk about. It's all about big national interests and big spheres of interests and not about regionalization on the small scale.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
30 Jun 2011 #166
The reality is that Russia isn't a threat to Europe anymore. They couldn't even if they wanted to. That's the fact.
And even the US acknowledged that lately...more concerned with China and WOT now than with Moscow.
That is not wishful thinking, that are the facts!

The anti-balistic missile shield project has a chance of success only if it is developed with Russia - said Russian permanent representative to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, in Warsaw. He also said that otherwise Russia will find a response to deployment of the shield elements in Poland; and the best solution would be not to deploy any shield at all.

They REACT! That's the difference! Did you really believe that such military decisions like Polands make for good relationships???
And even then, most of the EU has no problems with Russia....(they don't plan to put up any missiles either).

Just to remind you, it is not Poland that pushes for the system alone - it is NATO.

No, it's definitely not "NATO", Germany is not happy about it and most others are not even interested. It's definitely between Poland and the US. You make your bed then lie in it.

But don't blame others for their better relationships with Russia.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, NATO secretary general said last month that "mutual anti-rocket defense system is not possible with Russia."

Well...Russia is not a member of NATO...it should be really hard to pull something like that off together.

I would like to remind you that any attempts to align Poland along "confrontational lines" have always led to tragedies. During World War II, Poland lost nearly one-third of its population - said Dmitry Rogozin, Russia's representative to NATO.

He is right, isn't he. In WWII you were confrontional to both your neighbours...that cost you dearly!
Do you really want to go down the same part again? That's what Stratfor wants you to do....think about it if Stratfor really has your best interest at heart or rather american interests!

Well, a clown he may be, but he represents Russia.

I never heard of him so I doubt it.
Should you judge a nation by it's worst clowns?

So BB, the cold war is over?

Yes, it is

Yes I know Germany would like to cosy up with Russia, and for at least two good reasons. And Statfor clearly shows it in the article we talk about.

There is a middle way between antagonizing a neighbour and to cosy up, Poland should try it some time.
And Stratfor talks again, how usual, out of their arse. They have so no idea!
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
30 Jun 2011 #167
Look BB, I am not going to play with you a nit-picking game, because it leads to a tree-like explosion - original subject exploding to 400 new ones, after few returns. Try to be more synthetic next time. Several of your answers are false, others are twisted to match your beliefs.

+ All 28 NATO countries signed the missile shield agreement on Nov 10, 2010. That's a fact - notwithstanding what you think about it.
+ D. Rogozin is a bully, and that was my point in showing you some, not even worst, of his past statements. You either did not get it (and then I am sorry about it), or you twisted the facts to suit you, because:

- first you supported his (bullying statement) about ww2
- then you said "I never heard of him so I doubt it."
You cannot have both ways.

So let's stop here. We apparently agreed to disagree on this topic.
rock - | 460
1 Jul 2011 #168
Hımmmm. We have to work for increasing our influence on Bulgaria :))
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
1 Jul 2011 #169
Erm...you quoted his statement, remember??? And what was "bullying" about his opinion?

Look BB, I am not going to play with you a nit-picking game, because it leads to a tree-like explosion...

Umm...when you don't want opinions on your postings then you better stop posting links and expecting answers...you cannot have it both ways!

So let's stop here.

Heh:) Try me!
You are on a talkboard, you know... :):):)
Torq 26 | 2,371
1 Jul 2011 #170
stratfor.com/weekly/20110627-divided-states-europe

Yeah, right. Visegrad Plus my arse. Poland is so clearly in the German sphere of influence it's
impossible not to see it.
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
1 Jul 2011 #171
Poland is so clearly in the German sphere of influence

Why yes, I did not say I agreed with everything in the article. For example, Poland is now Germany's 10th-ranked economic partner (as Waldemar Pawlak, Economy Minister, says).

But Poland has also other trading partners, including UK. According to Rostowski, Poland's finance minister, "The UK is one of Poland's leading trading partners, although trade and investment flows between the two countries have the potential to be far greater."

Umm...when you don't want opinions on your postings then you better stop posting links and expecting answers...you cannot have it both ways!

I am not trying to shush you - talk as much as you want, but concentrate on topic for a change. The snippets about Rogozin were to demonstrate that Russian diplomacy is still very much similar to its glorious Soviet past - from the times of cold war. And that was part of the topic in my post. You evidently missed it. If you do not value my quotes go and do your own homework about Mr. Rogozin. There are hundreds of good examples on internet. [This paragraph has xxx words, but only one idea. I hope to see one response not xxx quotations in your next post here. That's why I suggested to you to stop nit-picking and try to synthesize concepts a bit.]

On the positive side, not all diplomats are like Rogozin. Sergei Lavrov, Russian foreign minister, is an old school diplomat and he would rarely if ever go for veiled threats. Actually Moscow counts on better relations with Europe, during Poland's rotating presidency of EU. For example, they hope for membership of WTO and easement on visa regime.

We have to work for increasing our influence on Bulgaria :))

Yes, remember Varna? :-)
Well, actually countries like Bulgaria (EU member) or Moldavia (aspiring for Eastern Partnership) actually look up to Poland as a potential ally on many levels. Just to name few things re Poland-Bulgaria relationship:

+ Bulgaria and Poland announced last April that they worked on a new military cooperation deal (mainly cyber security and weapon modernization)
+ Bulgaria could host a radar site if Turkey refuse to participate in missile defense system
+ Bulgaria and Romania aspire for Schengen zone entry. Reps of Interpol, Europol, FBI expressed their support during recent conference. Poland also supports them.
+ There are various energy initiatives of which Poland and Bulgaria are participants.
rock - | 460
1 Jul 2011 #172
Well, actually countries like Bulgaria (EU member) or Moldavia (aspiring for Eastern Partnership) actually look up to Poland as a potential ally on many levels. Just to name few things re Poland-Bulgaria relationship

I am not so sure about it. Maybe we can say they are at the first stage. When we look at the foreign trade and direct investment figures between these countries we see that they are very poor.
Crow 137 | 7,756
6 Jul 2011 #173
MUST READ IF YOU ARE POLISH >>>

i had a lunch today, with my business partners (relatively influences people on the local level- autonomy of Voivodina and Novi Sad city).

we mentioned political processes.... and,... we all who were present agreed on few things. That is:

1. so called west offering Serbia (Balkan) on the silver plate to the Turkey (to Turkish zone of influence)
2. Russia can`t help us even if Russia want (reason- Russia isn`t powerful enough)
3. BUT, there is significant chances that Russia support strengthening of traditional Polish interests on Balkan (and Baltic) because recent events convinced Russia that Russia has much more reasons to rely (and trust to) on Poland then onto Germany.

4. increase of Polish influence in the region may relax Serbian-Vatican ties
5. combination of Poland`s and Vatican`s interests with bless from Russia definitely must result in retreat of German interests, as well as in retreat of Turkish interests, what would furthermore minimize British-French influence on the region.

as conclusion, we all agreed that only Poland may save Serbia now and that all mega trends suggests that could be acceptable for Russia, too. Poland is only major European player whose particular interests absolutely support strengthening of Serbia in any sense, what again overlap with direct Russian interests.

We also agreed that role of Ukraine isn`t clear. It is expected that Ukraine follow logic of Serbian inteligentsia and may see hope in Poland.

that i wanted to tell you here.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Jul 2011 #174
Nobody in Poland gives a fig about Serbia.
Crow 137 | 7,756
6 Jul 2011 #175
if it could be truth, it could only mean that Poland gave up from its own interests. So i believe, Poland would follow its own interests and Poland would support Serbia.

sobieski

i nicely said

`MUST READ IF YOU ARE POLISH >>>`
Kuba TK 4 | 17
2 Dec 2011 #176
Merged: Future of Visegrad Group (V4)

Will it replace the EU in a Eastern European sense?
Will Romania join?
Ukraine?
sascha 1 | 826
3 Dec 2011 #177
maybe, maybe not but imo it seems a good alternative for those nations which are not heard at all in eu and which are constantly treated even now as 2nd class members, because they are from the east...
OP boletus 30 | 1,366
5 May 2012 #178
ČESKÉ noviny, ceskenoviny.cz/news/zpravy/visegrad-group-pledges-to-form-eu-battlegroup-by-2016/790545
published: 04.05.2012, 16:51
Visegrad Group pledges to form EU Battlegroup by 2016

Terezin/Litomerice - The defence ministers of the Visegrad Group (V4) today signed an official statement on forming a joint battlegroup of more than 3000 members within the European Union by 2016, Czech Defence Minister Alexandr Vondra told journalists.
...
Vondra said the joint unit commanded by Poland would have its first training in late 2015.
"It is a crucial signal that four central European countries can assume this task without the backing by any European power," he pointed out.
The V4 representatives today agreed to continue with joint military training after NATO's mission to Afghanistan ends.
...
The Visegrad Group countries also plan joint purchases of military equipment.

peterweg 36 | 2,316
5 May 2012 #179
The UK and France (the majority of Western Europe's military forces) contribution would depend on delivery of the A400M tactical air-lifter. UK has increased its number of C-17's to 8, but the A400M will be the main method of supporting the Visigrad group.

All this talk has to take into account that Russia has 700+ fighter aircraft against Polands 50 to 70. So it would be a desperate defense at best and if Germany does nothing probably hopeless.
sascha 1 | 826
5 May 2012 #180
Visegrad Group pledges to form EU Battlegroup by 2016

very good

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