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Poland: veterans and freedom-fighters want Jaruzelski posthumously demoted


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Dec 2016 #1
Jerzy Bukowski, representing the the Accord of Ex-Servicemen's and Independence Organisations (POKiN), has appealed to the Defence Ministry to posthumously demote the late communist dictator Jaruzelski. "Traitors can be stripped of their general's epaulettes even posthumously," he wrote. Bukowski said Ryszard Kukliński, who was posthumosuly promoted to general by Preident Andrzej Duda, and Jaruzelski are two symbols of modern Poland. The former had risked his life and that of his fmnaiuly to undertake a patriotic mission that contributed to the fall of the Evil Empire. The latter had sold himself to a foreign power in whose name he enslaved his own nation.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
5 Dec 2016 #2
Traitors can be stripped of their general's epaulettes

Anyone who held any military rank during the communist era should be stripped of that honour, they defile the honour and memory of the true Polish patriots and heros.

They can use the title of comrade if they so wish.
mafketis 24 | 9,361
5 Dec 2016 #3
Anyone who held any military rank during the communist era should be stripped of that honour,

If you didn't do it in 1989 (which would have effectively liquidated the Polish armed forces) there's no point in doing it now. Symbolic gestures have their place, but that place is not distracting the public from the financial mismanagement of the current government.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Dec 2016 #4
you didn't do it in 1989

That's the whole problem. After 1989 most commie and elitist roundtable deal-makers were self-interestedly scrambling and jockeying to land the best spots in privatisation, state companies, government, media, etc. with little or no thought about their country's future. They neglected to de-communise, the vetting (lustracja) was pitiful and most of the secret police and army brass made it straight throuhg into III RP. Nobody was interested in building Polish entrepreneurship but in making a quick buck by selling off whatever could be sold. No wonder there is so much unfinished business left to deal with at present, and thank God for Morawiecki.
Harry
5 Dec 2016 #5
They can use the title of comrade if they so wish.

Should the same title be used by those who prosecuted dissidents under communism?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
5 Dec 2016 #6
Anyone can use the title if they choose to, even posters on this forum can refer to themselves as comrade if they wish
cms 9 | 1,271
5 Dec 2016 #7
So in 1989, the most unstable and uncertain year since the war, it would have been a good idea to strip everyone in the army of newly independent Poland of their rank ? And to do the same for the police ?

Even by the standards of this forum its a moronic suggestion
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Dec 2016 #8
So in 1989,

Not in 1989, but by 1992 the new democratic governance had established itself and the opening of secret-police files was a good first step. Fearful of being exposed as SB snitch Bolek, Wałęsa overhtrew the government. After the red army pulled out of Poland, there was nothing to stop the settling of accounts. But out of self-interest the ex-commie government that followed soon thereafter also torpedoed attempts at decommunisation and only a pitiful excuse for a vetting procedure (lustracja) was atempted.

The net reuslts: the lack of accountability, the failure to separate victims from victimisers and sort out who was who has continued to bedevil the Polish political stage ever since. Yes, it may be quite late in the day to do that at present, but if it isn't done it will keep re-surfacing over the next 20-30 years if not longer.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
6 Dec 2016 #9
So in 1989, the most unstable and uncertain year since the war, it would have been a good idea to strip everyone in the army of newly independent Poland

I Said "Anyone who held any military rank during the communist era should be stripped of that honour,"

If you notice I use the present tence "Should be" not should have.

It would have been idiotic to try this n 1989 as some poster inferrde (Without reading my post properly) , it may have led to conflict.

But now is the time to sort business.
mafketis 24 | 9,361
6 Dec 2016 #10
But now is the time to sort business.

On what basis? If simply serving in the PRL is grounds for loss of rank then why aren't all doctorates and professional licenses obtained in the PRL also revoked?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
6 Dec 2016 #11
On what basis? If simply serving in the PRL is grounds for loss of rank

On the basis that duing the cold war these "Polish" army officers unders Soviet command were prepared to lead my brothers in to a direct fight with the free world, There was a time during this period when I have could been ordered to kill my own people. These officers should have remained as conscripts only and left the leadership to the soviet commissars.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Dec 2016 #12
On what basis?

This refers to people linked to the the apparatus of repression, the universally hated and feared SB, the PZPR's secret poltical police. Those were the stooges paid to stalk, provoke, infiltrate,intimidate, hunt down, incarcerate, interrogate, torture and kill opponents of the Soviet-imposed regime. The pension cut did not affect all uniformed services, let alone PhD holders and professionals. Such suggestions are part of the KOD/PO scare tactics being used in defence of their once cushy status quo.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
6 Dec 2016 #13
Why not dig up his body and put him on trial. Maybe a death sentence after a public flogging. Stick his head on a pole and parade it around Warsaw.

For inspiration, look here

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthumous_execution
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Dec 2016 #14
Stick his head on a pole

They used to do that in the Balkans -- Transylvania, Serbia, etc.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
6 Dec 2016 #15
Stick his head on a pole and parade it around Warsaw.

I think Stalin is still pickled in moscow somwhere, plenty of tickets would be sold to see that one paraded.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Dec 2016 #16
Stalin is still pickled

What? You mean the Kremlin-cotnrolled Orthodox Chruch and Tsar Vladimir haven't canonised him yet?!
Crow 146 | 9,106
7 Dec 2016 #17
Even if they hang him posthumously, communist pan Jaruzelski won`t complaint, I am sure. He took the money during his life.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
7 Dec 2016 #18
Vladimir haven't canonised him yet?!

Pfffft, wouldn't put it past them, plenty here in Poland still see Jaruzelski and communism as a good thing, I don't invite them in for tea needless to say.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Dec 2016 #19
communism

One KOD activist from Łódź, Mirosław Mrożewski, is calling on former PRL officers who hadn't handed in their handguns to back him and give PiS the business of 13 December. Łódź is where some loon shot dead a PiS activist at the party's HQ. That's also where Palikot (like a Luther wannabe) nailed his Act of Apostasy to the door of one of the local churches, making sure a TV crew was on hand ready to roll. In America they say California is like a breakfast cereal -- take away the fruits and nuts and only the flakes are left. And to think Łódź, back when it was a film-making centre, used to be called Hollyłódź! Wonder if there's any connection?!
Crow 146 | 9,106
7 Dec 2016 #20
They used to do that in the Balkans -- Transylvania, Serbia, etc.

pardon. Only to Turks. They were monstrous occupiers and they were not considered to be human beings. So, when Vlad Tepes lost his nerves, all nasty technics that Turks invented were then successfully applied on them. Vlad just loved to impale and grill them.


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