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Poland versus Greece in economy


TheOther 5 | 3,646
27 Sep 2012  #1
Take away the EU subsidies, subtract the billions of cash that Poles send home from abroad, and bring home the millions of men and women who left Poland for greener pastures. Let's see if the Polish economy is still as successful as you say.

This has been discussed ad nauseam already... ;)
Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012  #2
As someone who knows Greece to a certain extent, I would say that there are huge differences between the countries and work cultures. Greece in mentality is scarcely European, and the level of cheating and lying in every walk of life beggars belief - and this is in the opinion of Poles living in Greece. Udawać Greka - never a truer word spoken in Polish.

And as for Tusk being free-market. Hmmm. He's certainly in favour of big business. Doesn't like the smaller ones though - because they don't pay him. His first act when he took office was to stop all criminal investigations into his big business pals. In a normal country this would have led to a total catastrophic scandal from which he wouldn't have recovered. But Poland has a largely supine press and people are genuinely unconcerned about certain sorts of graft.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,403
27 Sep 2012  #3
I would be very much interested in discovering which were these investigations you are referring to? There still exist newspapers in Poland (one of them is a well-known national "heavy") which would certainly continue to mention it from time to time. I'm surprised that I haven't come across this in spite of being usually interested in this kind of things.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
27 Sep 2012  #4
It's normal for him - he's always posting unsubstantiated rubbish on these forums about Tusk and PO.
Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012  #5
Rzeczpospolita is a fine independently-minded newspaper. Bit boring though.

The investigations - they were widely reported in the press at the time. I have distant links to Krauze. You might have heard of him.
Nojas 4 | 110
27 Sep 2012  #6
Which was the only country in the 27-nation European Union to register economic growth without going through a recession last year? The surprising answer is Poland.

I'd like to see your source, since it's wrong.
Warszawette - | 128
27 Sep 2012  #7
Witam!

As said above, if you forget about the UE funds (Poland is no.1 reciepient), foreign investors, the millions of Poles going to the West for bread and not willing to return (again the headline in yesterday's Polish media) and their monies sent back home, Poland is far from brilliant.

The socalled growth is because Carrefour or Tesco opens a Xth store in Poland and that's all.

Poland has no economy per se, it's all in foreigners' hands. In my view, Poland is following Spain's steps, a lot of wind and nothing concrete. I would like to be wrong but easy to make the parallele.

,
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
27 Sep 2012  #8
the millions of Poles going to the West for bread and not willing to return

Why do you keep saying they're going for bread? In most cases these days, they're either going for the experience or to get a lot of money - quickly. They're not going because they're hungry in Poland.

The socalled growth is because Carrefour or Tesco opens a Xth store in Poland and that's all.

Really? You haven't seen the endless new factories that keep going up? Or is it because you don't want to see it?

Poland has no economy per se, it's all in foreigners' hands.

Hardly. Or have you forgotten about the large stakes that the Government holds in virtually every major 'concern' in Poland? Have you forgotten that Poland is producing a vast amount on her own accord without any foreign involvement?
Orpheus - | 114
27 Sep 2012  #9
And as for Tusk being free-market. Hmmm. He's certainly in favour of big business. Doesn't like the smaller ones though - because they don't pay him.

Does the Prime Minister receive personal payments or take bribes from big businesses in return for political favours? Please clarify.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
27 Sep 2012  #10
He won't clarify, because he knows fine well that if he actually made any concrete statements, he'd get himself into trouble for lying.
Orpheus - | 114
27 Sep 2012  #11
if he actually made any concrete statements, he'd get himself into trouble for lying.

Do the Polish libel laws cover the internet to any meaningful degree? Hope so.
milky 13 | 1,657
27 Sep 2012  #12
The Polish economy is a house of cards.
I make this point on every thread related to the topic of Poland and how it didn't go into recession bla bla bla. It's just turns into a circul"ar argument and when they are proven wrong they will say "if you say the sky is going to fall for long enough ,you'll eventually be right.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,403
27 Sep 2012  #13
Poland is far from brilliant. The socalled growth is because Carrefour or Tesco opens a Xth store in Poland and that's all. Poland has no economy per se, it's all in foreigners' hands. I

As the notion that Poland is far from brilliant is very true, your views on the economy are far from being exact or they are much oversimplified. You should know, for example, that grande surface in Poland accounts for a much smaller portion of the the overall retail trade volume than it is in France, Britain or Germany. Thus you should not judge the state of the economy by the trademark signs you can see in the streets. This can also be misleading in the other way, too. For instance, you might have well recognised "Biedronka" as Polish, whereas in reality it belongs to a Portugese chain.
Warszawette - | 128
27 Sep 2012  #14
To Delphi!

Yes there may be new companies opened in Poland but they are by foreigners because of cheap labor.

A "successful" economy is not when relying on foreign aid, when locals have to move out because they want to make a decent living and when people do not have kids because they cannot afford and are scarred of the future.

Don't make us believe that all those Poles applying for welfare as soon as they arrive in Britain (or elsewhere but it's mostly in Britain because the British government had the "brilliant" idea to open British labor in order to lower British salaries) and those cleaning homes, hotels/pubs, picking up tomatoes or taking care of elderlies or working on the building industries do it for the sake of having an .... "experience" abroad. "lol" . In yesterday' s Gazeta Wyborcza, there was an article on Poles getting 2,000 EUROS in the West whereas they would have made 2,000 ZL in Poland where the cost of living is often as high as in Western Europe.

I personally know alot of people going to the West for bread, among others, teachers of German who lost their jobs since a lot of classes close in some areas and who go to Germany to take care of old folks for some 1,000 euros there (poverty line in Germany but as seen from Poland, 1,000 euros seems a fortune).

With the crisis in Europe going deeper, if the UE reduces its funding (Poland receives the most) and if foreign companies reduce their presence, then we'll really see the economic situation in Poland.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
27 Sep 2012  #15
Which was the only country in the 27-nation European Union to register economic growth without going through a recession last year? The surprising answer is Poland.

Yawn... it's not even funny anymore.
Warszawette - | 128
27 Sep 2012  #16
Yes, true, Milky! Poland's economy is like a house of cards. It reminds me of what Spain was a few years ago - everything financed by the UE, building apartments galore for which people took credits for up to 50 years and .... In Poland it's the same, people are all on credit (I heard of such cases like borrowing from a bank for the ... Easter or Christmas dinner ;)), they take credits for some 40 years to buy an apartment and so what when they lose their jobs? There is no unemployment benefits in Poland (compared to Western Europe) and how shall they reimburse their credits?

Of course, some people prefer to think that everthing is ok because they make it but the overall situation is much different.

Grzegorz: ????? - don't worry, this is NOT my situation ;)

Although I'm rather priviledged, I am able to look around and see the way the world really works....
Avalon 4 | 1,068
27 Sep 2012  #17
and when they are proven wrong they will say "if you say the sky is going to fall for long enough ,you'll eventually be right.

Coming up for nearly four years and you have not been right yet. It's always next month.

everything financed by the UE, building apartments galore for which people took credits for up to 50 years and ..

If you could be bothered to look it up, you will find that the EU never financed the building of apartments, that was the Spanish banks who overextended to the developers. The banks are the ones owed the money (unless the ECB and ESM bail the Spanish banks out) then we all pay. Tomorrow, we find out how much merde the Spanish government is really in.
Harry
27 Sep 2012  #18
I'd like to see your source, since it's wrong.

He seems to have copy pasted from here
washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/18/poland-versus-greece/

He's certainly in favour of big business. Doesn't like the smaller ones though - because they don't pay him.

I look forward to seeing you name the companies which you claim pay Tusk.

His first act when he took office was to stop all criminal investigations into his big business pals.

I look forward to seeing you name the people who were being investigated.
Nojas 4 | 110
27 Sep 2012  #19
He seems to have copy pasted from here

So, they are actually correct. Because the article is from 2010...
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
27 Sep 2012  #20
subtract the billions of cash that Poles send home from abroad

In 2011 Poles sent back roughly 17 billion zloty ($5.2 billion) that's over 3 billion zloty less ($900 million) then in the record year 2007. Most Poles didn't move back to Poland but stayed or changed countries. This change confirms that more and more Poles are deciding to stay abroad permanently. Some are bringing their families over therefore have no need to send money back home. The people deciding to stay abroad are putting their money in their childrens education, are buying cars and homes. This is also confirmed by the demographics of Poland, according to prof. Czapiński there are currently 37.2 million people living in Poland, of which a million have been abroad for more than a year.

janpinski.nowyekran.pl/post/58276,polacy-nie-wracaja-przestali- wysylac-miliardy-do-kraju
pip 10 | 1,661
27 Sep 2012  #21
Interestingly enough in the spring I was in the UK and watched a bit about Greece on tv and what the experts thought. Number one issue was the Euro. Had Greece not taken the Euro as their currency- they would not be in the mess they are in at the moment- I am sure this is a huge reason for the many problems in Greece. Poland, in my opinion, should not take the Euro. It is far too soon- and then the supposed house of cards will then definitely fall. We still need a lot more foreign investment in order to bring the country up to parr.

Why is foreign investment frowned upon here. It happens everywhere in our globalized world.
TheOther 5 | 3,646
27 Sep 2012  #22
In 2011 Poles sent back roughly 17 billion zloty ($5.2 billion) that's over 3 billion zloty less ($900 million) then in the record year 2007.

Still billions, but an interesting development.

Most Poles didn't move back to Poland but stayed or changed countries.

Contrary to what has been said on PF on various occasions then?

This change confirms that more and more Poles are deciding to stay abroad permanently. Some are bringing their families over therefore have no need to send money back home.

Now imagine all those Polish people returning home and not being able to find a decent job.

Out of interest: who is Jan Piński? What's his political affiliation?
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
27 Sep 2012  #23
Contrary to what has been said on PF on various occasions then?

I personally have friends who were living in Ireland. Only one or two still live there (I think Cork) two moved to Norway, one to England, and only one went back to Poland for good.
Harry
27 Sep 2012  #24
So, they are actually correct. Because the article is from 2010...

What's your point? Polish GDP grew 4.3% 2011 and is expected to grow 2.7% in 2012.
milky 13 | 1,657
27 Sep 2012  #25
Coming up for nearly four years and you have not been right yet. It's always next month.

see what i mean
pip 10 | 1,661
27 Sep 2012  #26
but he isn't wrong, is he? just you are.
Wroclaw Boy
27 Sep 2012  #27
Contrary to what has been said on PF on various occasions then?

More Poles are leaving than going back, i meet them all the time and the ones i speak to have no intention of going back.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
27 Sep 2012  #28
Yep. Unless you have a relative or very close friend already working for the company, or a engineering degree or doctorate from a very good school good luck finding a good job.
Meathead 5 | 470
28 Sep 2012  #29
He seems to have copy pasted from here

Washington Times, Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute are right wing institutions. Wall Street Journal is owned by the lovely Mr. Murdoch.

Why is foreign investment frowned upon here. It happens everywhere in our globalized world.

The Point she's making is none of the growth is locally based. If the foreign investment stops, Poland is screwed. You can't build a nation on cheap wages as China is finding out.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
28 Sep 2012  #30
Do the Polish libel laws cover the internet to any meaningful degree? Hope so.

Of course. That's why he won't name names, because he knows fine well that he would be absolutely hammered by a Polish court for libelling a Polish native for making statements that can't be backed up.

I personally know alot of people going to the West for bread

I'm sure you don't actually know those people, you're just making it up to suit your point. Why would a teacher of German go to Germany for 1000 Euro when they could easily earn 2500zl in a job that required German speaking skills in Poland? It wouldn't make any sense at all - and that would be a basic, entry level customer support job.

And 1000 euro is hardly a "fortune" in Poland.

In Poland it's the same, people are all on credit (I heard of such cases like borrowing from a bank for the ... Easter or Christmas dinner ;)),

You "heard" of such cases only in your head.

Poland, in my opinion, should not take the Euro. It is far too soon- and then the supposed house of cards will then definitely fall.

My opinion too, but this is because the needs of the Euro zone and the needs of Poland are just too wildly different right now. Poland needs to be able to use the value of the Zloty to help exporters, given that the economy is based upon it - and the Euro is far, far, far too unpredictable now. Best to stay out and wait to see what happens. However - I would support pegging the currency to the Euro so that people doing business with the Eurozone have some certainty about costs - I notice one thing, that people here are adding considerable margins to sale prices simply to protect themselves against currency fluctuations.

Now imagine all those Polish people returning home and not being able to find a decent job.

Actually - it's a real issue. I know several people who would instantly bin any CV that contained non-relevant work experience abroad of longer than a year.

Had Greece not taken the Euro as their currency- they would not be in the mess they are in at the moment- I am sure this is a huge reason for the many problems in Greece

It depends how you look at it. Had they taken it and obeyed the financial rules, they would be fine - but the whole problem in Greece was caused by them not being able to devalue their currency in order to mop up all the undeclared currency lying around. It's their own fault really - the Euro offered them a stable currency in which to grow, and they chose to abuse it thoroughly.

If the foreign investment stops, Poland is screwed.

Except it won't stop anytime soon.


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