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Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced.


Piast Poland 3 | 182
4 May 2011  #91
We should improve and tighten our relations with our Slavic brothers particularly those that are friendly like Ukraine.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 May 2011  #92
What for?

1. Sort out the historical issues. Deal accordingly with the extremists on both sides.

Impossible, without extremist Ukraine has literally no heritage or history.

3. Increase political, scientific and economic co-operation. Our joined potentials can make
us a force to be reckoned with

2 beggars in one room do not a rich man make.
Torq 26 | 2,371
4 May 2011  #93
2 beggars in one room do not a rich man make.

Yeah, but one of them can afford cheap wódka and the other may have enough
money for some zagrycha, so together they can have a party :) Neither of them
can afford both wódka and zagrycha, so the co-operation would seem commendable.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 May 2011  #94
Oh come on killing them would be fun... Seriously though untill lately i've been an ardent supporter of closer ties, then i had a peak into their internal situation, Ukraine is a gutter wrapped in a sh*tpile, there's no one to talk to there, literally no one, even the official goverment is only a faction.

This place is going to fall on its face within the next 10 years, whats the point of being friends with a terminally ill hobo?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
4 May 2011  #95
This place is going to fall on its face within the next 10 years, whats the point of being friends with a terminally ill hobo?

It won't. There's too much at stake from both the West and East point of view for Ukraine to fall - in other words, it suits both Russia and the West for Ukraine to exist as it does.

Ukraine, economically, isn't in terrible shape either. L'viv is starting to steal outsourcing business from Poland, for instance.

The corruption is dreadful, but I've heard first hand from a rather wealthy American business owner there that the new President has been dealing with the worst of it - and that other foreign investors are actually on his side.

All in all, while not a great place to be, it's no bad place either. I'd certainly rather live in Ukraine than Namibia, that's for sure.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 May 2011  #96
It won't. There's too much at stake from both the West and East point of view for Ukraine to fall

No one is running it, literally! Also what the Wests stake? The buffer is already there, its called Poland.

Ukraine, economically, isn't in terrible shape either.

Wait what? People in the army are being paid in food because the state has no money and you're claiming its not in terrible shape? During the 2009 flu epidemic it almost enacted martial law! You can't go to a doctor without a bribe, any doctor anywhere! Ukraine is in a horrible shape.

The corruption is dreadful, but I've heard first hand from a rather wealthy American business owner there that the new President has been dealing with the worst of it - and that other foreign investors are actually on his side.

Wait who? Who's been dealing with it and how?

All in all, while not a great place to be, it's no bad place either.

No its actually a horrible place to be, there's no social order, no real goverment, corruption is unbelievable, economy is at the level of some african state and not moving forward, healthcare is the prime reason of deaths and approximately two thirds of the country live on the edge of poverty.

I'd certainly rather live in Ukraine than Namibia, that's for sure.

Actually Namibia is slightly better off, i researched it since its so often compared to Ukraine and its economy is developing whereas Ukraine sticks firmly to one spot.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
4 May 2011  #97
So why is it a sucha big difference between these two countries? Both have been "free" since the ealy 90's.

Poles became nig*ers of the west and even nig*ers sometimes get something from their owners.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
4 May 2011  #98
No one is running it, literally! Also what the Wests stake? The buffer is already there, its called Poland.

Plenty of people are running it. There's a thriving, but small NGO sector there (I know the founder of one), the education system is functioning well enough (though riddled with the same problems that Polish universities have) - all in all, Ukraine is functioning.

Wait what? People in the army are being paid in food because the state has no money and you're claiming its not in terrible shape? During the 2009 flu epidemic it almost enacted martial law! You can't go to a doctor without a bribe, any doctor anywhere! Ukraine is in a horrible shape.

Stop reading things online and start speaking to people there. Can you blame them for considering martial law when the flu was taking out society? Makes sense, and anyway, it was a State of Emergency that was declared - just like in Poland whenever something bad happens. Bribes for doctors? Just like Poland.

Wait who? Who's been dealing with it and how?

I suggest you start by looking at what the Ukrainian tax authorities have been doing recently.

No its actually a horrible place to be, there's no social order, no real goverment, corruption is unbelievable, economy is at the level of some african state and not moving forward, healthcare is the prime reason of deaths and approximately two thirds of the country live on the edge of poverty.

So - if it's so bad - why didn't I see that, even when visiting really poor villages in the L'viv oblast?

There's plenty of social order (no sign of it in my five trips so far), the government is functioning, the corruption is being tackled slowly, the economy is growing again, healthcare is actually not much worse than the Polish system and people are most definitely not starving to death there, although it's not an easy life.

Actually Namibia is slightly better off, i researched it since its so often compared to Ukraine and its economy is developing whereas Ukraine sticks firmly to one spot.

Hardly a fair comparison. Ask yourself - who ruled Namibia versus who ruled Ukraine?
hubabuba - | 113
4 May 2011  #99
Good point, Harry. More mouth than courage.

Nathan, looking at Your recent history You shouldnt really talk about courage,
btw, I read that genetically West Ukraine has very simlar DNA to Polish one:] wouldnt it be better to come back to old ways of slavic multiculturalism??some union maybe:]]]]
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 May 2011  #100
Plenty of people are running it.

Russians, Ukrainians, Mafia, Jews, Poles... Yep plenty of people are running Ukraine, all in different directions too, oh right then there's the actuall ukrainian goverment too.

There's a thriving, but small NGO sector there

By thriving you mean a couple used chiefly for money laundering and furthering various interest groups goals?

the education system is functioning well enough

In 2007 5% of Tarnopole region army recruits couldnt read.

Ukraine is functioning.

Yep its a fully functional anarchy.

I suggest you start by looking at what the Ukrainian tax authorities have been doing recently.

Apart from stealing? Enlighten me.

So - if it's so bad - why didn't I see that, even when visiting really poor villages in the L'viv oblast?

Lets take a look at really poor villages in Lwów region.

The image f*cked up my quoting so lets put it in perspective (be carefull when singing praises i got plenty of pictures that show exactly what a horrible p*ss poor country Ukraine is).

Ukraine is horribly poor and not moving forward, adding to boot its civilisationally somewhere in the mid 20s of the XX century and has no social elite whatsoever, life there ranges from difficult to abso-f*cking-lutely horrible.



Ironside 48 | 9,704
5 May 2011  #101
there's no one to talk to there, literally no one, even the official goverment is only a faction.

Right, that is what I'm saying all along. There is no partner there, either we can get what rightfully ours or Russia will take it all.

Simple really.
Torq is a dreamer not a realist.
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011  #102
At this point there's pretty much nothing Poland can do for Ukraine. It's Ukraine that has to get their grip together, modernise their country (I don't mean economy and infrastructure, but the legal system, government etc.), then they'll be treated as a serious partner and eventually a EU member.
antheads 13 | 327
5 May 2011  #103
Torq is a realist patriot and you ironsir are an nationalist extremist. sokrates is beyond that, closeminded lunatic.

modernise their country (I don't mean economy and infrastructure, but the legal system, government etc.),

koala Yes and if poland as its western neighbour assists then ukraine becomes both a partner and partialy enters polish sphere of influence. There is already high levels of co-operation.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
5 May 2011  #104
2. Support Ukraine's entrance to EU and NATO (even if we have to pull them by their ears.)

Brilliant imagery Torq! lol

We should improve and tighten our relations with our Slavic brothers particularly those that are friendly like Ukraine.

Is that even possible?
antheads 13 | 327
5 May 2011  #105
i think a lot of american poles don't relize how dynamic the situation is in europe, how the eu has changed everything and how former enemies are now good friends for the sake of economic benefit and rediscovered shared culture. Ukraine depends on poland for access to the eu.
Piast Poland 3 | 182
5 May 2011  #106
Is that even possible?

Im just saying there is no need for hate. Besides I dont really get this Lwów sitaution. They may have the region but we are much more developed. Getting these territories back would only be bad news.
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011  #107
koala Yes and if poland as its western neighbour assists then ukraine becomes both a partner and partialy enters polish sphere of influence. There is already high levels of co-operation.

I disagree. Poland has no power or leverage over Ukraine to meddle into their internal affairs. Polish politicians actually tried that a little (after the orange revolution) and failed miserably for a variety of reasons. The big difference between Poland and Ukraine is that after the fall of communism Poland always knew the direction that should be taken - the ambition of every government and almost every opposition party was to join NATO and European Union, which meant that everything that was required to be in these organisations was done as soon as possible (and a lot had to be done - adjusting law to EU standards meant a fast and big leap in modernising the country). There have been different visions how Poland would work within EU, Ukrainians OTOH don't seem to be able to determine where they want to be headed, hence they lose a lot of time and energy bouncing back between different options, not working particularly hard on anything long term.

Actually now Poland has lost a lot of that momentum inthis regardas the current government focuses mostly on current problems, not working on any long term reforms or visions. Kind of disappointing.
J Gard - | 4
5 May 2011  #108
Now I know why my grandmother was always more proud of her polish ancestry though they came from the Ukraine, thanks for an interesting post
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011  #109
That's rather lame if true. You should always be proud of your roots. Or was you family actually Polish, but just lived on Ukraine? There used to be a ton of Poles on Ukraine.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
5 May 2011  #110
That's rather lame if true. You should always be proud of your roots.

Why? What makes Ukrainians proud? They have no achievements, no heritage, no nothing.
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011  #111
That's bollocks. Ukrainians have been a separate nation as long as a concept of modern nation exists, they surely have their own language, cultures and traditions. And in a grand scheme of things, what achievements does Polish nation have?
rybnik 18 | 1,462
5 May 2011  #112
That's bollocks. Ukrainians have been a separate nation as long as a concept of modern nation exists, they surely have their own language, cultures and traditions

My mom's people came from Stanisławów. She spat whenever the name Ukraina was mentioned. I'm open-minded.... So what can Ukrainians lay claim to? How have they contributed to the greater good?
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011  #113
What have Albanians contributed to the greater good? Or Peruvians? Or (insert nation here)? Should all of them be ashamed of who they are?
rybnik 18 | 1,462
5 May 2011  #114
No. Unless they have a reason to be ashamed.
Koala 1 | 332
5 May 2011  #115
So why should Ukrainians not be proud of their nation?
antheads 13 | 327
5 May 2011  #117
In closing I have looked at all contributions and all sides of the debate and have come to the following conclusion.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
5 May 2011  #118
And in a grand scheme of things, what achievements does Polish nation have?

No, they're a separate nation for 130 years, an independent one for less than 20 and they dont have any traditions or culture.
Palivec - | 380
5 May 2011  #120
ROFL. Isn't it amazing that some people here sound exactly like 19th century Germans when they talked about Poland? :D

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