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Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced.


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 May 2011  #61
The last thing it needs is discourse from the West that fans the flames of separatism,

What do you mean?
poland_    
3 May 2011  #62
Separatism flourishes in the western regions of Ukraine. Some people who live there wish their cities to belong to Poland or Romania. You can even see such labels in Kiev on the independence day of Ukraine.

Andruhovich: We've left 20 futile years behind. Ukraine remains the same. That is a bad and demoralizing state

Prior to this Ukrainian MP Anatoliy Gritsenko declared that he considered Ukraine as an administrative district of Russian Federation.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 May 2011  #63
Well...maybe it will end in a split some day, is with ex-Czechoslovakia?
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
3 May 2011  #64
Bombing it would be a viable solution though.
legend 3 | 669    
3 May 2011  #65
Like I said earlier I think East Ukraine loyalty is more towards Russia.
and West Ukraine (independant nation who might enjoy western countries more)

Well...maybe it will end in a split some day, is with ex-Czechoslovakia?

Personally I like larger countries. I think even today Czechoslovakia should be one.
I also think Yugoslavia should be one. But they were destroyed partly by themselves and partly by Americans (refering to Yugoslavia)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
3 May 2011  #66
Why does everyone leave out the simple solutions like genocide? Ukraine is a place where people suffered throught history and we have a moral duty to deliver them from any future maladies, its only ethical to kill them all.
poland_    
3 May 2011  #67
Like I said earlier I think East Ukraine loyalty is more towards Russia. and West Ukraine (independant nation who might enjoy western countries more)

Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine has been viewed by the outside world almost exclusively in terms of its enormous potential. A famous Deutsche Bank report published in late 1991 identified Ukraine as the former Soviet republic most likely to succeed,
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
3 May 2011  #68
Well its 2011 and Ukraine is still struggling.
poland_    
3 May 2011  #69
Here follows an analysis of five important issues facing Ukraine as the Yanukovich administration embarks on its second year in office:

1) Ukraine's economic reform agenda and agriculture's transformative potential;
2) Ukraine and the challenge of Islamic activism in Crimea;
3) Safeguarding Ukraine's national interest in Moldova and Pridnestrovie;
4) Achieving a "national accord" on the use of Russian and Ukrainian in Ukraine;
5) Ukraine's interest in avoiding "entangling" military alliances.

There are a host of other issues facing Ukraine that, arguably, surpass these in immediate importance. These would include relations with Russia, the state of Ukrainian democracy, the status of efforts to root out, or, at least, drastically curtail, corruption, the politics of energy transit across Ukraine (and under the Black Sea), and Ukraine's demographic crisis, among others

Source: moderntokyotimes.com/2011/03/10/key-issues-facing-ukraine-in-2011/
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
3 May 2011  #70
I'm still of the opinion that murdering every single last ukrainian would help.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445    
3 May 2011  #71
would help in what?

It is not an option, because that would include me:). Not a chance;)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 May 2011  #72
But then you would have a huge empty plain...you can't ask Germans again to settle there...we have not enough people anymore!
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
3 May 2011  #73
We could keep a small control group of ukrainians to repopulate Ukraine and then bomb then one more time to shorten their suffering... again.
PennBoy 76 | 2,438    
3 May 2011  #74
It is because unlike the Poles the Ukrainians have always invested a lot of trust in mother Russia

I think it's because after the Soviet Union fell the Ukraine didn't make much changes it was still tied to Russia. When Russian economy fell in the mid and late 90s (according to experts, something making the American Great Depression look like a fluke) the Ukraine suffered deeply too. Even today many people in it's government don't want anything to do with the west and look at mother Russia as it's role model.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,644    
4 May 2011  #75
I'm still of the opinion that murdering every single last ukrainian would help.

Thankfully, we already know that when push comes to shove, Ukrainians are far better at mass murder than Poles ever will be.
rybnik 18 | 1,462    
4 May 2011  #76
will wroclaw ?

good question. will it?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,378    
4 May 2011  #77
Poland should lobby for Ukrainian membership in the EU and then help them to rebuild as was done to Poland...they have it significantly harder than Poland and mocking them for that is not nice!

There is an easier way for lwow Oblast to get into the EU, If you know what I mean, nudge nudge.....wink wink..
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 May 2011  #78
I, as an uninformed Yank, get it. Thank you.

You are welcome, rybnik.

Separatism flourishes in the western regions of Ukraine. Some people who live there wish their cities to belong to Poland or Romania. You can even see such labels in Kiev on the independence day of Ukraine.

Warszawski, you said many true things in regards to the problems we face, but the last one is a total lie. And this is not your fault. The Center of Social and Marketing research "Соціс" published report in April 2011 on the poll where the Ukrainian citizens were asked:

1.) Whether they support independance of the western region of Ukraine and Donbas (coal-rich region of the east)

Results: only 2% supported independance of these regions;

2.) Ukraine to remain unitary or become a federation?

5% support of the federation;
In addition to that eastern region Donbas now supports by 25% the aspirations to join EU, which was unheard of a few years before. And this is understandable since more service oriented western Lviv and Carpathian oblasts (administrative units) outperformed the heavy industrial regions of the east.

Another poll taken from 17 to 26 of March 2011 among the inhabitants of Lviv - the center of western part of Ukraine and the center of my heart :) - whether they support the separation of their region from Ukraine:

85% - against the separation;
6% - undecided (zombies);
6% - kinda support the idea and only 3% support it 100%;
The poll was performed by the Social group "Рейтинг".
Warszawski, you quote a Sevastopol newspaper which is filled with Russian dreamt-up stuff. You better off picking some recognized national source, not the city where temporarily is located Russian fleet. The fairytales they'll write are simply funny.

Here is a photo from Lviv demonstration in regards to separatism:

Another thing about Ukraine one might want to know: western and central regions are highly nationalistic and will rip apart any chauvinistic Pole, Romanian or Russian; eastern will do the same, but, probably, spare a Russian as*shole. So, trust me, there is no other feelings besides business with Poland or Romania and no one wants to belong to anyone, except some usual minorities movements.

Prior to this Ukrainian MP Anatoliy Gritsenko declared that he considered Ukraine as an administrative district of Russian Federation.

That is total crap! A. Gritsenko is one of the most respectful politicians in Ukraine, though his party currently has only around 2% of the votes. The Russian newspaper of Sevastopol would turn around the meaning of what he said 180 degrees. In fact, he ridiculed the way Russian patriarch didn't honor to visit any of the Russian regions, but came to the "South-western territorial district of RF", indicating the sphere of influence still present in that part of Ukraine. It didn't say anything about Ukraine as a whole - just go to the original blog of Gritsenko.

There is an easier way for lwow Oblast to get into the EU, If you know what I mean, nudge nudge.....wink wink..

Sure, and again you will be running around Europe with Institute of National Memory counting the fallen by the so-called "rezuny" ;)

Even today many people in it's government don't want anything to do with the west and look at mother Russia as it's role model.

That's not really the case. Check the travel schedules of the Russian PM and their patriarch Kiril for the last 6 months. They come over so frequently and beg to get into the economic commonwealth with them on a 3-1 basis, where Ukraine is as if a part of it, but mostly independent to make its own decisions. The 3 others are usual suspects: Russia, Belorus and Kazakhstan. The politicians which one calls pro-Russian are not interested in losing their business interests inside the country and give it up to become nobody in the Russian world. So, even they will unwillingly still be on our side of the border, figuratively speaking.

Nowadays, miriads of pointless issues and debates are raised to keep people away from getting angry with the lame economy and corrupt government. It is only a matter of time when the opposing sides which argue for stupid things realize that their enemy is the butchers in the capital, which have to be removed and replaced with young politicians.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
4 May 2011  #79
Sure, and again you will be running around Europe with Institute of National Memory counting the fallen by the so-called "rezuny" ;)

You do realise that your army is non existent? What are you going to threaten Poland with in the event of any conflict? Foul language? C'mon Nathan we both know your country is a temporary thing and Lwów will get back to Poland sooner or later:))))

Also Rezuny wont do much when they get driven over by tanks:))))))

Another thing about Ukraine one might want to know: western and central regions are highly nationalistic and will rip apart any chauvinistic Pole,

With what? Your pilots fly 2 hours a year, your tanks have enough fuel and spare parts for 100 hours of activity, its hard to rip apart a chauvinistic Pole when he's riding an armoured vehicle and all you have is a d*ck in your hand and a lot of misplaced anger, its our land Nathan we built the cities, the roads, you just live there!

not the city where temporarily is located Russian fleet.

Face it, its there to stay.
southern 76 | 7,103    
4 May 2011  #80
The main reason for Ukraine's underdevelopment are Ukrainians themselves not Poles or Russians.Anyway the Russians managed to keep everything profitable from USSR times in the country of Russia.They are only interested in Donbas steal,fertilizers and Sevastopol naval base.
Ironside 47 | 9,497    
4 May 2011  #81
Lwów also belong to Ukraine for unclear reason.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,644    
4 May 2011  #82
You do realise that your army is non existent? What are you going to threaten Poland with in the event of any conflict? Foul language? C'mon Nathan we both know your country is a temporary thing and Lwów will get back to Poland sooner or later:))))

Bear in mind that they did a rather splendid job of removing Poles in the past - what makes you think you can defeat them this time?

Also bear in mind that far more powerful interests will support Ukrainian independence over Polish interests.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
4 May 2011  #83
Bear in mind that they did a rather splendid job of removing Poles in the past

Only because Poland was occuppied and had no means of retaliation, now its an organised state again, last i checked Ukraine lost every regular war with Poland?

what makes you think you can defeat them this time?

Having an actual army with working equipment as opposed to Ukraine having stuff that has issues just moving from point A to point B due to lack of spare parts.

Also bear in mind that far more powerful interests will support Ukrainian independence over Polish interests.

Really? Because you say so? Last i checked Poland is in NATO and EU and Ukraine is where? Who's going to protect it? Russia will jump at the opportunity to "protect its citizens" and annex the eastern parts.

The fact is if Ukraine ever starts ethnic cleansing Poland and Russia would roll over it in a week and after a month the death of a country would stop even making news.
Harry    
4 May 2011  #84
if Ukraine ever starts ethnic cleansing

Haven't they already done it? Just as Poland ethnically cleansed Poland's 'sensitive' areas.

Poland and Russia would roll over it in a week

How many weeks did Poles like to say it would take them to be in Berlin in the 1930s?
southern 76 | 7,103    
4 May 2011  #85
Lwów also belong to Ukraine for unclear reason.

Stalin would have a different opinion.
poland_    
4 May 2011  #86
not the city where temporarily is located Russian fleet

Nathan, the agreement for Russian fleet was re-signed, is it 25 or 50 years?

The politicians which one calls pro-Russian are not interested in losing their business interests inside the country and give it up to become nobody in the Russian world.

Hence, " a Ukrainian solution, for the Ukrainian problem"

As I mentioned earlier, I was in Lwow twice this year and was impressed with the people and their desire to do business, the main problem is still bureaucracy.
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 May 2011  #87
With what? Your pilots fly 2 hours a year, your tanks have enough fuel and spare parts for 100 hours of activity, its hard to rip apart a chauvinistic Pole when he's riding an armoured vehicle and all you have is a d*ck in your hand and a lot of misplaced anger

This is resembling what Polish generals were saying in August 1939 when threatening Germany. Next month it was over in 3 weeks ;)

You do realise that your army is non existent?

Trust me, for Poles there will always be enough :)

Also Rezuny wont do much when they get driven over by tanks:))))))

Haven't you had tanks in 1940s? Oh, I forgot, you still used horses like in the WWI :)

last i checked Ukraine lost every regular war with Poland?

We already talked about it - in 1 year Poland was kicked from the Dnieper to Peremyshel by our army made mostly of peasants with scythes and sticks :)

Last i checked Poland is in NATO and EU and Ukraine is where? Who's going to protect it?

You definitely need protection, wussy ;) Have you ever fought alone? No. Even in the commonwealth used the Lithuanian help to wage wars.

How many weeks did Poles like to say it would take them to be in Berlin in the 1930s?

Good point, Harry. More mouth than courage.

Nathan, the agreement for Russian fleet was re-signed, is it 25 or 50 years?

It was signed for 25 years and currently multiple parties protest and demand to rescind the agreement as it goes against the Constitution.

Hence, " a Ukrainian solution, for the Ukrainian problem"

Absolutely. I think as soon as the internal problem is solved - the green light for economy is set and normal development can be revived.

the main problem is still bureaucracy

I agree, warszawski, and corruption.
antheads 12 | 287    
4 May 2011  #88
this arguement is so stupid, luckily poland and ukraine are brothers now.
Torq 26 | 2,362    
4 May 2011  #89
I can't imagine what benefit could Poland get from an armed conflict with Ukraine. It would benefit
Russia mainly, and for us it would be a constant source of problems, no matter the outcome
of the conflict. The basic facts are: Ukraine is not a threat to Poland's independence, Poland is not
a threat to Ukraine's independence, Russia may, in certain circumstances, be a threat to both Poland
and Ukraine. If that can't make Ukrainians and Poles natural allies, then I don't know what can.

My solution would be:

1. Sort out the historical issues. Deal accordingly with the extremists on both sides.
2. Support Ukraine's entrance to EU and NATO (even if we have to pull them by their ears.)
3. Increase political, scientific and economic co-operation. Our joined potentials can make
us a force to be reckoned with .

It really seems logical, and Poland should follow the politics of supporting Ukraine, even if they
sometimes get on our nerves. That's our Jagiellonian role in the central and eastern Europe,
and we have to serve as a civilizational centre for all former Rzeczpospolita nations.
antheads 12 | 287    
4 May 2011  #90
yes in fact poland and ukraine are increasing co-operation and warmthness of ties due to increasing issues we have in common. The same is happening with the other slavic country we had troubles before ww2. czech republic.

I am so bored with people caught up in historical details without examining what is happening in the present.

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