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Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced.


Palivec - | 380
3 May 2011  #31
So, Western Europe is some kind of Soviet Russia? I've never seen such visual polution in Germany, Scandinavia or France. Not even in the Czech Republic.
poland_
3 May 2011  #32
I cant tell you in the public. You need to open your PM box for a while. :):):)

Peter Schiff
GrzegorzK
3 May 2011  #33
I doubt most Ukrainians considered themselves "little russians" unless they are Russians living in Ukraine, hence making them Russians and not Ukrainians. Ukraine doesn't have direct access to the Baltic like Poland does, plus Poland is next to Germany and France and not too far from scandanavians and Britain. Poland also had stronger economy before collapse of USSR and before invasion of Nazi's and Soviets then Ukraine did.
poland_
3 May 2011  #34
Look at those ugly advertisements near Warsaw - it looks as if their motto was: Give me a road and a plot so that I can start a business.

Pawian, you know exactly that the photo shows the entrance to a industrial park, and all the boards are displaying the business activity in the enclosed area.

Poland isn`t Belarus or Russia. They can`t tell you what you can, have to or mustn`t put on your own land. Don`t you know it yet? :):):)

So you have no experience of building in Poland.
GrzegorzK
3 May 2011  #35
I gaurantee if Russia every attacked Poland and Ukraine and other eastern european countries, that Ukrainians would unite with Polish people... and not Russia.
poland_
3 May 2011  #36
What matters here is this:
Last summer, I was invited to speak at the Economic Forum in Krynica, a resort town in Southern Poland. I was amazed at the level of economic activity and civic spirit that was on display throughout the country. I also was fairly surprised that my economic views, which are routinely ridiculed at home, have much wider support among the Polish economic officials who presented at the conference.



Peter Schiff, is just another US broker in Poland trying to influence and buy up Poland for his own personal gain.
Torq 26 | 2,371
3 May 2011  #37
Where would Poland be today without the EU...

I remember Poland in 2003 and 2004, before we entered the EU and I don't recall it being
"a hell of a lot poorer". Also, I wouldn't overestimate the influence of the "billions of EU
funds". I remember, in a similar thread some time ago, it was calculated that the EU help
for Poland amounts to about 97 euro per capita, every year since 2004.
That's peanuts money. Of course we are grateful for it - every little helps, but hearing
about it constantly, makes me want to give back my 97 euro a year, and tell all the Euro
hyper-enthusiasts to f*ck off with their constant "Poland is doing so well, because of EU
funds" bullcr*p.
pawian 159 | 9,479
3 May 2011  #38
I remember Poland in 2003 and 2004, before we entered the EU and I don't recall it being
"a hell of a lot poorer".

Yes, total agreement. In another thread I posted this data about Polish growth - after the dramatic plunge in 1990 and 1991, it was quite a steady rise, with or without EU.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Poland

So, Western Europe is some kind of Soviet Russia? I've never seen such visual polution in Germany, Scandinavia or France.

Exactly. They are either post- Soviet or new-fascist!! :):):)

You don`t see visual pollution in those countries, huh? Today, huh?

How about the times when they were at the same stage of development as Poland? Huh? Are you sure no visual pollution then? Huh? :):):)

Peter Schiff, is just another US broker in Poland trying to influence and buy up Poland for his own personal gain.

You speak as if you didn`t know that whole capitalism is based on one idea: achieve your own personal gain. I thought you already know it. :):):)

So you have no experience of building in Poland.

If you mean building a house, you are right.
But I was talking about smaller things.
southern 75 | 7,097
3 May 2011  #39
Poland in 2002 was much better than Ukraine now.Only Kiev can be compared to some polish cities development of that period.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
3 May 2011  #40
I remember Poland in 2003 and 2004, before we entered the EU and I don't recall it being
"a hell of a lot poorer".

Only from looking around and looking at pictures - it seems to me that the real difference was made with major infrastructure projects.

That's peanuts money.

That's why I don't understand Lewandowski's whining about the EU budget and demanding EU taxation - the money isn't that significant - and - at least to me, shows that the Polish government has got addicted to EU money rather than generating it from within.
Ironside 48 | 9,704
3 May 2011  #41
In Lviv, many of the city’s streets are a barely-drivable cobblestone that looks to have last been fixed before the war,

bingo!

East of Lviv, the sight of a horse-drawn cart draws barely a glance, and fields are dotted with farmers walking behind horse-drawn ploughs– views that used to be ubiquitous in Poland but are now a rarity

nothing wrong with a horse power - ecologically friendlily.

Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎?

Because Ukraine has never been a state before 1990.

That's why I don't understand Lewandowski's whining about the EU budget and demanding EU taxation - the money isn't that significant - and - at least to me, shows that the Polish government has got addicted to EU money rather than generating it from within.

You are light weight who understands nothing.
Government maybe be adicted to EU monies but it doesn't mean that those monies are make a hell of a difference, as Torki said (as much as I disagree with him on others issues) it is peanuts money.
Torq 26 | 2,371
3 May 2011  #42
That's why I don't understand Lewandowski's whining about the EU budget and demanding EU taxation -
the money isn't that significant - and - at least to me, shows that the Polish government has got addicted
to EU money rather than generating it from within.

Exactly. Polish government should negotiate lower tax rates (like VAT or excise tax rates for example),
and simplify the law, especially labour law, instead of concentrating on EU funds.
pawian 159 | 9,479
3 May 2011  #43
Pawian, you know exactly that the photo shows the entrance to a industrial park, and all the boards are displaying the business activity in the enclosed area.

No I didn`t know it.

These too?
OP David_18 68 | 982
3 May 2011  #44
Peter Schiff, is just another US broker in Poland trying to influence and buy up Poland for his own personal gain.

Why else making business if not for the profit?
poland_
3 May 2011  #45
No I didn`t know it.

We are discussing the photos in post 3, not the ones you added at a later date.

Why else making business if not for the profit?

There are more than enough capable Polish investors, without relying on Americans. Peter Schiff, is the typical doom and gloom merchant, quoting gold will go to us$ 5,000 an ounce in 2012, there are so many of these false prophets about in the banking industry.
pawian 159 | 9,479
3 May 2011  #46
We are discussing the photos in post 3, not the ones you added at a later date.

What are you trying to prove, man? :):):) I post a hundred of photos each day on different forums. Here, I showed 3 photos from Warsaw as first because they were easily available in the open file, later I added 3 more which I had to dig up from some abyss on my computer. All of them support my idea.

Because Ukraine has never been a state before 1990.

Exactly. And it is our Polish duty to help Ukrainians retain their sovereignty.

Peter Schiff, is the typical doom and gloom merchant, quoting gold will go to us$ 5,000 an ounce in 2012, there are so many of these false prophets about in the banking industry.

Peter Schiff, is just another US broker in Poland trying to influence and buy up Poland for his own personal gain.

It is funny to compare your comments on Schiff and this description:

Schiff is one of a minority of economists credited with accurately predicting the financial crisis of 2007-2010 while "nearly all [macroeconomists] failed to foresee the recession despite plenty of warning signs".[46][47] In his book Crash Proof, he described several aspects of the U.S. economy that would lead to a recession.[3]

More: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schiff

Have you had a bad day or what? :):):)
ekk
3 May 2011  #47
I don't want to be meticulous, but the correct GDP per capita figures would seem to be $ 18800 for Poland
(slightly lower than Hungarian GDP per capita) and $ 6700 for Ukraine (slightly lower than Namibian and
considerably lower than Albanian), and that is the reason of the differences which David_18 mentioned.


GDP 2011
Poland 19,887.282
Hungary 19,501.341
Ukraine 7,126.071
poland_
3 May 2011  #48
Schiff is one of a minority of economists credited with accurately predicting the financial crisis of 2007-2010 while "nearly all [macroeconomists] failed to foresee the recession despite plenty of warning signs".[46][47] In his book Crash Proof, he described several aspects of the U.S. economy that would lead to a recession.[3]

Schiff is the same as Roubini and the others. Pawian, if you constantly told the world that PIS would get back in power, one day it would come true. He has been constantly anti USD since 2008, look how wrong he has been, his quote for 2011 is that gold will go to USD $5,000 an ounce, he also recommended Icelandic bonds in 2008, maybe you should read the story about the monkeys and the US brokers.

No bad day, its actually snowing here in Warsaw now.
pawian 159 | 9,479
3 May 2011  #49
Hmm, maybe you are right, who knows.

GDP 2011
Poland 19,887.282
Hungary 19,501.341
Ukraine 7,126.071

Isn`t it the prognosis?
poland_
3 May 2011  #50
Isn`t it the prognosis?

Here is the IMF future forecasts as of April 2011

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita_estimates
Torq 26 | 2,371
3 May 2011  #51
GDP 2011
Poland 19,887.282
Hungary 19,501.341
Ukraine 7,126.071

So, it looks like we're going to overtake Hungary this year :) Ukraine will still be behind Namibia though :(

Namibia 7,307.760

Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,714
3 May 2011  #52
Poland should lobby for Ukrainian membership in the EU and then help them to rebuild as was done to Poland...they have it significantly harder than Poland and mocking them for that is not nice!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 May 2011  #53
I couldn't agree more, BB. Ukraine can always plead multiple obstacles as a defence but the time has to come when they take the plunge.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 May 2011  #54
That goes for just about every country...
Torq 26 | 2,371
3 May 2011  #55
Poland should lobby for Ukrainian membership in the EU and then help them to rebuild as was done to Poland.

I agree.

...they have it significantly harder than Poland and mocking them for that is not nice!

Nobody's mocking them. The comparison to Namibia was made merely to show those who claim
that the difference between Polish and Ukrainian GDP stems from the fact that Poland receives
EU Peanuts Funds, that they are quite wrong, and that the gap in the two countries' economies
is much bigger than some people seem to think.
pawian 159 | 9,479
3 May 2011  #56
Poland should lobby for Ukrainian membership in the EU and then help them to rebuild as was done to Poland...they have it significantly harder than Poland

I agree.

Brat, you are an unusual German, because most of your compatriots fear new members like hell. Why are you doing it? :):)
Torq 26 | 2,371
3 May 2011  #57
Well, it isn't nice to Namibia, I agree, but we don't have any Namibians on this forum (I think),
so there's little danger of any citizen of this fine African country feeling insulted by my posts.

However, just in case, if there IS some Namibian reading this - I apologize.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
3 May 2011  #58
Bratwurst Boy:

Poland should lobby for Ukrainian membership in the EU and then help them to rebuild as was done to Poland.

I agree.

I wonder Torq if you sometimes read Ziemkiewicz or Michalkiewicz - in his last column in interia.pl Ziemkiewicz pointed out why he thinks Aleksander Kwaƛniewski never received any international office (which he really aspired and craved for (he wanted to be the secretary of the UN for example)) - you would then be less optimistic about creating such a pro-Ukrainian lobby - this all is not to mention the internal problems of Ukraine which are a real obstacle for her to join the EU
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,714
3 May 2011  #59
Brat, you are an unusual German, because most of your compatriots fear new members like hell. Why are you doing it? :):)

Family background...

The Germans with the most sympathy and interest for the "wild East" are often descendants of people who once lived there (not only Poland but also the Baltics etc). There are still ties, even if invisibly today.

Most other Germans care less or fear the costs only...they look only to the West. Eastern Germany is abit different in that regard I think...
poland_
3 May 2011  #60
the internal problems of Ukraine which are a real obstacle for her to join the EU

Ukraine is a relatively stable democracy, its statehood is of very recent vintage, its institutions are immature, and its politics is raucous. The last thing it needs is discourse from the West that fans the flames of separatism, however remote. It must find " a Ukrainian solution for the Ukrainian problem".

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