Poland: In Top First 15 Countries in the WORLD by the number of CRIMES

5.85 if your over 21

4.63 if your 18

Well there you go. Thanks for that, irishdeano. I await his response.

In Germany there is a minimum wage for certain jobs, google translate will probably do a good job translating this.
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindestlohn#Situation_in_ausgew.C3.A4hlten_Staaten
Remember, azubis aren't included.. Right, handing out fliers, it's a student job, and under the table.


Domiporta gives me 200 multiroom apartments in Gliwice for under 1200zl. At the peak of the unemployment crisis, how many people did you see on the street?


I'm still waiting for my dream network engineer in Warsaw. Also, if you know someone that can connect a monitor and a printer to a POS terminal, let me know. I have a job for them as well. Hey, got anyone that can fly a plane? There is a shortage of pilots here. I understand that HP and IBM are hiring like mad here in Wroclaw for anyone with foreign language skills.


There is a difference between taking a loan for consumption, and taking one for investment.

How coherent is all this? Losing it a bit?

Yeah but there isn't in Poland and that's my point. They are offered peanuts and can barely make ends meet. There aren't many openings either.

1200PLN gives you what, only the roof over your head or all utilities with it as well?

Fly a plane? Probably yes as there is a defunct airport here but it's still used for those with private aircraft and other flying options.

What is the principle of a loan? In your eyes, is there a difference between a loan and a gift? There should be! You invest in studies, fair enough, but there are no guarantees at the end and many can vouch for that.

There are jobs in IT and I haven't said otherwise. In general, though, there is a shortage.

Education is free here, why would you have to work a unskilled job? What's barring people from going to school?


Depends on what you need. Do you need an apartment, or a room? Are you a pair of teachers making 3600 a month? Are you working an entry level job at HP making 2800 a month?


It was an example, Katowice isn't far away. There is a Citation operator out there that are looking for first officers right now.


It depends on what you study. Again a question of choice.

My thoughts are based on the places that I've been, and the people that I've met. My point in this entire thread is that if you want to live comfortably in Poland, you have the option to. A bit of common sense and there is no reason that you can't live comfortably. Europe has an entitlement culture that is only second to the US.


And we're talking about options, right now, now hypothetical situations. Does a person in Poland right now have the opportunity to live comfortably. Is it possible?

You are confusing two different things, work and study. Some don't study and we all know how paper-heavy Poland treats them. They do unskilled work. I keep telling you, Poland is lagging behind in employment circles. The period of inward investment wasn't sustained and some companies took their business elsewhere. Ask those who don't go to school, some don't see it as fitting and that it's a waste of time.

Przeciętny ludzi, I'm talking about the average Joe in Gliwice who doesn't make that at all. Many jobs pay around 1,500PLN here. Maybe 2k at a push. See how far that gets ye!

You are talking about a specific opening, I'm talking about general, across-the-board openings.

You still haven't answered my question about a loan and a gift. So why doesn't everyone go and study the subjects with the plum jobs at the end? Many reasons I think you'll find. What their family did, their preferred career, the way they think etc etc. Certain people match certain jobs and not everyone goes where the money is. Society needs people to keep thinking this way, accepting less money but serving their social function. Just imagine where we'd be if nobody wanted to do jobs like garbage disposal and other public service jobs.

Not everybody has the option at all, that's crap. Do you really think that the 11% of the registered unemployed want to be? Some yes but the majority? Don't you think they'd rather have money in their pockets and bank accounts? Let me ask you this, would you like to earn 10k a month? How about 25k? Maybe 50? If you don't earn that, why not? Define comfortably please.

More and more people are rich so of course it's possible. However, many aren't because they are in jobs for them. Look at those in the UK, for example, that do PhD research and take up science posts. Have you ever read Focus? You'll see that they earn about 12-13k a year. They are using their intelligence to further some field of humanity but do not live comfortably in the definition of many. It's all relative!

School is free here. If you're poor, you get a stipend from the government. Student loans aren't that difficult to get.


Their preferred career, you hit the jackpot there. Unless you're borderline retarded, you know where the money is at. If you choose not to go that route, guess what, you won't get compensated at the rate that you expect. Masters in anthropology, good for you, it won't pay the bills.

What exactly is your question regarding a loan and a gift? Capital should be borrowed for investment.


Seriously, you don't think people have an option here? Do you think they're willing to work for it? Everyone wants a Ferrari, some people make it happen, some people hang posters on their walls. Comfortable is a roof over your head, food on your plate, and the opportunity to further yourself.

And look at what research scientist at the pharmaceutical companies here in Poland are earning. I would suggest that those Brits move over here.

I know school is free here, that doesn't change what I said above. The discipline and onerous aspects deter them. It's not all about money. Education in Scotland was free in my time and many didn't go on to do further study.

That's my point! Why should sb who takes the route that fits their character and skillset be forced to struggle as they do? Everyone has a function. Some are handymen, some are scaffies, some are book-keepers etc etc. Not everyone can go down the same road and pursue the gold and not everyone wants to. They know who they are but why should they accept less? That gets into the social utility of any given job and the downfalls of so-called meritocracy would be there for all to see.

Loans need to be paid back and some can't due to not getting employment. Sorry but this was commonplace in Scotland and probably still is. Loans are not gifts. Just describe a loan to me and you'll see what I mean.

It's not as easy as you paint it. So many would be going down that road if it were so. Some get lucky! What kind of roof? Some live in dingy, musky flats. Is that comfortable? Some choose bachelors pads, are they comfortable? What kind of food? Bread rolls and pasta everyday? Comfortable implies steadiness, not opportunities for development. Given that many struggle to make ends meet, they don't move to the next step of Maslow's hierarchy. Also, the nature of the job can be repetitive and has to be done in a certain way. Think of procedural, bureaucratic posts where there is a given way. Comfortable is knowing that you will stay in that job, not necessarily focussing on advancement which often isn't forthcoming. Many lines of work don't have a linear, career ladder aspect to them.

Well, that's a different industry that has chosen to award some. What about those other areas that contribute to human development in another way? Should we make them live with much less because they are making a 'different' contribution? You have entered into the territory of assigning values to jobs without really ascertaining their respective merits. You will see many anomalies if you look close enough.

Now we're talking about the fairness of a system vs. the opportunity to succeed in it. I'm not arguing that it's fair for the person that decided to study philology and is now painting houses, that's the difference here. You're talking philosophical, I'm talking here and now.


If they used the loan to fund, say, an education in IT, or medicine, or law...the chances of being employed are high, very high. That is an investment. If you take a loan for say studying sociology, well, more of a consumer loan.

The issue at hand is can one live comfortably in Poland, is it possible. Not, can one live in Poland comfortably doing what they enjoy.

I'm not talking about changes of directions, I'm talking about people who have chosen a given path because they feel it is what they are meant to do. We shouldn't punish those for going down paths which fit their character and benefit humanity at the same time. Poland does with low salaries and most would agree.

But my point is that they don't want to take out extra loans as they probably have loans out on a car or are making downpayments for a pad. Again, no guarantees. Ask yourself this, why do people study Sociology? Some people don't get the grades to study Law or Medicine but they would like to. I didn't get the grades to study Law proper but did Law and Management, a generic course, then got my Masters in Int'l and European Law. You just need to know the roads to go down but not everyone is given that chance, it depends on your grades and references. That's my point!

Are you comfortable doing sth which completely doesn't fit you? Would you be stressed and uncomfortable? It's not about enjoying it, it's about the job fitting the person and the person knowing that. I just feel that we don't remunerate in certain areas correctly. Many bright minds are forced to live almost hand to mouth during their studies with no guarantees. Even when they get a job, it really doesn't pay well most of the time. Still, they can do it but I wouldn't say it's comfortable. Catering for our most basic physiological needs at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy isn't comfortable. It's like the difference in Polish, mi jest wygodny and jestem wygodny, 2 different things.

chosen being the key word.


A student??

The rest will come tomorrow :)

Yes, students. Poles start university later than we do, at around 19 after their MATURA. They can legally drive at 17. Many want the mobility that a car provides but their PT job will barely cover the insurance, nevermind the car. OK, few go for a pad so early but they pay for their student digs.

I'll wait til you reply more fully to my post above.

Yes, the car was a terrible example. Regarding a place to stay, how much does a room in Gliwice cost? How about one at the dorms? Looks like rooms on gumtree in Katowice run about 400 all in.


A job, firstly, is a means to an end. There are very few people that wake up and do exactly what they want and get paid for it. Even research scientists aren't doing exactly what they want. They're doing what the boss is telling them to do. Same goes for pilots, teachers, doctors. This is an international phenomenon...

Again, this wasn't meant to be a philosophical conversation, just realistic. I still believe that one can achieve a comfortable middle class life in Poland based on the choices that they make, no dumb luck needed. I was trying to back up my statement that there is no reason for someone in Poland to have to steal to survive.

I meant that they can't pay for the insurance even and that's before buying the car. Not 'nevermind' the car in that sense. A loan is a help AND a hindrance.

Like I could hardly pay for a service of an Audi :(

Gumtree is not the most reliable. 500 perhaps. That's a lot of money when you are only working PT.

So they are not comfortable exactly. You have just proven my point. You can't pick and choose and sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. That's what I was saying. Few people can just waltz into jobs that pay more than 10k a month. Some realism is needed.

Choices increase your chances but luck plays a major part, contacts too.

You don't need a car when you're a student. The only reason for a car is consumption, and the only thing you should be consuming in university is alcohol.


That is a lot of money, 125 hours worth of handing out fliers... Wait, students have the option of living in the dorms, and students are means tested and provided with a stipend if they come from a low income family.


Which means that no one is comfortable the world over, and Poland is just as horrible of a place as the UK. We were talking about "living well" economically so that one didn't have to steal, and if that was possible or not here.

Two people here fresh out of university earning middle class money, say 2800 a piece, living as expensive as possible (not in municipal housing, not in friend of a friends flat, not in grannies flat), will pay a third of household income for a roof over their head. That leaves almost 3000 a month for food, expenses, and disposable income.

How do you get to that point? Study philology and apply at HP after getting your bachelors degree. They are hiring along with IBM, anyone they can get their hands on.

It would be if it was true, the fact is most Poles remained in the UK as its easier over there. Which brings us back to "they couldnt make it in Poland" for all the reasons were discussing here.

Torq had a great post on another thread:


^Coming from a Pole^


Perferctly sound argument Seanus. Youve been around for a while you know how it is....


another lie, i have many Poles applying for employemnt with me that are highly educated, i always refer them to IBM and HP in Wroclaw. They do not


at all.

Yes, it is easier. Again, we're talking about easy vs. not being possible. It is easier to make money in the UK. It is possible to make middle class money in Poland. It is an option. It is easier to move to the UK, work in a factory, and earn the same Polish middle class money, without having to go through all the trouble of studying a useful skill.

Anyway, what's up with "Wracaj do Polski"? Why would the Polish government spend money increase unemployment numbers here and benefit payments? That seems rather odd.


That's funny, my girlfriend got a job. No connections, just applied. She's got a bachelors in philology. Her not so bright schoolmate was just picked up at Volvo.

Maybe she did but that doesnt translate to "highering everyone they can get their hands on" in my book.


Ahh no i never said it was not possible, stop putting words into my mouth. In anycase I wouldnt class going to England, finding your way around a foreign country with basic to no English, finding accomodation, sourcing work, to be easy, would you? Its a question of having to in order to make ends meet.


Its possible stop with the rhetoric, never said it wasnt possible.


Just looked over the thread and this is interesting, lets go back to my brother in law.

He has recently taken full paid sick leave with a deal to terminate his employment after three months. Why: hiss boss was having him spied on in order to find fault with his work followed by disciplinary action, and ultimately the sack, some of the faults were actually pre-planned traps. When he questioned his boss the answer was its you or me, atleast he was honest about that.

Can we blame the boss? Head office in Warsaw are making cuts and people have to go.....Its skull duggery.

So to answer your question yes he had financial planning, he didnt forsee his child becoming ill and he didnt know a reccession would hit Poland.

With the economy shaping up how it is there will be many more of these types of incidents, problem is in Poland theres rarely a pay off, companies choose to scam and con employees out of work in order to save redundancy pay outs. Its amazing the power of bribes and bottles of vodka to hide truths in order to shaft the middle class again and again.

Apparently they have a finders fee, if you have someone with language skills looking for work, let me know...

You don't need luck, you need to choose a profession which is in demand, and to be adaptable to changes. I assumed that you were implying that luck is needed, I apologize if I misinterpreted that.


Do you trust the health care system here? If you were planning a family, would you trust the life of your child to public health care, especially if you know how the system operates?

If he was making 1300 a month, which is minimum wage for a full time employee, maybe he should have looked for a job that paid a decent wage?

So what are the next steps? Is his wife still working? Is he planning on moving for work? kariera.pl

because it is not true. It is a myth, most statistics state otherwise- that is if you looked at them, but then again, all the statistics lie, so this discussion does not make sense.


looks like you found a scapegoat- crimes are not exclusive to race but to the social class.

ahh the old crystal ball technique. What if everybody chooses a career that is in high demand at the same time like nieruchomosci?, (using your own techniques against you). Let me know about those lottery numbers as well.


Bribes are common place in Poland, the bigger the illness the bigger the bribe. Would i bribe if my child was in hospital and i didnt have the spare cash - yes.

The point is bad luck falls on everyone everynow and again, we cant forsee it, in Poland the support is not there. Im sure youve had your fair share of bad luck. So dont give me that above crap.

Im still waiting for you to explain 3,000,000 Poles abroad over the past 5 years, highly skilled and professional young Poles that studied in demand professions. According to you they should be here living middle class lives.

political correct statistics say absolutely nothing.
it's a fact that nonwhites in Belgium and Netherlands are far more criminal than whites.


in most western countries the standard of living of the lowest social class is very high.
so there's absolutely no excuse for committing crimes.

some groups simply have too many rotten apples, you can't blame society for that.

Convex can you please enlighten us as to what these


are?

hmm, learn reading statistics. check the per capita rate.

per capita poland's crime ration is less than canada's(!!!).

i've been living some time in germany too - and germany is per capita/total higher in this statistic - and I can say: if poland is safer than germany then I might think about quitting locking my house door.

Sorry, missed your reply


Sure, science and technology. As a percentage of studies, it's fairly low here in Poland. Doctors won't have any problem finding work, bio engineering isn't going away anytime soon, marketing is good, law never hurts, mechanical engineers are needed, computer science is a good bet.

For bonus points, here are some studies which will make getting a good job...well, difficult.

Philology, Psychology, Anthropology, History, Art, Pedagogy, Philosophy...

Do you want to talk theoretical, or about the here and now? It's not a static system, but changes don't happen overnight. If things are moving in another direction, you can gain knowledge in that area. With the rate of change in technology, if you don't adapt, you can't take advantage of new opportunities.


That wasn't the question. I asked you if you trusted the health care system? Would you be comfortable bringing a child into the world if you couldn't fall back onto the NHS or private health care?


There's bad luck and bad risk management. Basic risk management skills are missing for a lot of people.


I've already told you time and time again. If the minimum wage in France was €25 an hour, I'm sure that you'd see millions of Spaniards moving across the border as well. You simply make more money there, which is why more Poles are moving to the UK than all other EU countries combined. I don't want to use the mail as a reference, but come on.

The financial benefit isn't as big as it used to be. Poles are heading back home.

So you admit to ^: but not



and ive already told you its not about leaving family and loved ones off to the UK for better money its a matter of no options in Poland. Ive also told you that the reason they flooded to the UK was because of the lack of emmigration control, not better money or work opportunities. If Germany, Italy, France etc imposed no restrictions think how may more millions would have fled. Thus highlighting the lack of opportunity in Poland even more....

I dont care what you say 3,000,000+ in four years tells me its a little bit more about lack of opportunity in Poland than hard earned pounds picking cabbage leaves and cleaning toilets.

Ive pretty much had enough of this debate, its not going anywhere so i guess we'll just keep believing in our own points.

It's a bit of both tbh but more that there isn't enough gainful employment for them here. It was the case in 2004, WB, that they got 7.2PLN to the pound (at one point). That was prime time! Over 7000PLN a month for a pi**y little 1000 pounds a month job. We should also factor in idealism, a point that hasn't been made enough if at all. Anything was better than here (in their minds) but I don't think they realised how expensive Britain is. My friend went back to Liverpool and he came back to Poland within a year (English guy). The reason? Blighty is really extortionate!

As for the thread allegation, bollo*ks!

Yea, just read it again. Good risk management reduces the effects of anything negative that might come up. So what required luck is needed to make it here?


Again, why didn't the immigrants go to the Scandinavian countries? Why are there more people returning to Poland now than leaving? Why aren't they flooding into France, Holland, Belgium, Italy?

Looking at per capita migration, Poland is about equal with the Baltic countries, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria... There is a direct correlation of PPP to migration. The incentive to migrate is higher.

You like hypotheticals, what would happen if the minimum wage in France was €25 an hour, median wage of €50 an hour, do you think that Brits would migrate?

What many Poles did wrong was to interpret the globalist freedoms as guarantees of work and they didn't organise work in advance here. The smarter ones brushed up their CVs, applied from home base and only then rolled the dice. That's just the truth, convex.

In the absence of concerted stimulus packages designed to lure workers back here, we can assume that some came back in the hope of setting up shop but look at the stats of GUS. There has been a steady monthly increase of 0.1% every month for the last few months. Don't you think that a large number of those who came back fit into that bracket, convex? Would that be reasonable to assume?

Convex, it has been explained before why they don't go to Scandinavian countries. Taxes are through-the-roof and the language barrier is very much there. It is SOOOO expensive to go there even for a holiday, never mind live there. Go and check out the prices of accommodation in Stockholm. Please reserve me a hotel there for 3 nights if it's so cheap ;) ;) ;)

Is it SOOOO expensive, I agree with you there. So that brings up back to the reason for the migrants to move. Was it because they were starving at home, or because they could make much more money than in Poland? The UK was more attractive because you could make twice as much money than in Sweden.