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SUNDAY WITHOUT MASS IN POLAND - Judaeo-leftist Wyborcza gloats


Nickidewbear 23 | 599
2 Jul 2012 #31
Although I wish the Jewish Dispora would do something about them before they turn to rubble.

I was thinking maybe that, but would especially Antimissionaries be up in arms (so to speak--at least in some cases!).
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
2 Jul 2012 #32
Shame really.

What you seem to have forgotten is that that most adherents and/or lapsed believers had no say in whether they wanted to join their religion or not - as circumcision/baptism etc. took place when they were only a few days old.

It's not easy to break away at all, not by any means. I lived with the "you'll go to Hell if you stop going to church" threats all through my early life - but even that is mild compared to the "renounce Islam and you will be put to death" threats which some people have the misfortune to suffer.

What people like Polonius3 fail (or refuse to) understand is that the religious have no monopoly on good deeds or morality. I am not an atheist, but I will not accept man-made organised religion until they leave the Dark Ages. It's not the fact that I came from a religious family that I believe that it is wrong to kill - but because we only have one guaranteed life - and that right to life should be protected for all (exceptions can be made for murderers/terrorists/child rapists, but that's a minority, and another thread altogether). It's possible to live a good, lawful, useful life without any religious belief whatsoever - but people like Polonius3 automatically denounce people such as these as "heathen" and "immoral". They are not, they just have different beliefs to him.

There are few things more ridiculous than forcing people to believe in something which can't be proven, and especially if there is punishment for their non-belief. This is why, although I accept that there may be a God, I consider religions to be little more than yet another pointless man-made social control system. Or, more accurately, a male-made control system (and that's half the problem).
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Jul 2012 #33
As Christianity declines, general human misconduct grows. Was there really as many broken families and as much shoplifting and white-collar crime in your youth as there is now? (I have omitted cybercrime because computers weren't widespread a couple decades ago.) The supporters of the irreligious 'anything goes' mentality have forgotten (or probably have never heard of) the message of that great humanitarian Albert Schweitzer: 'Remember, you are not alone in this world -- your brother is here too!'
Harry
2 Jul 2012 #34
As Christiacity declines, general human misconduct grows.

Bollocks. Crime is now far less of a problem than it was a couple of hundred years ago but far fewer people now waste their time with fairytales about virgins giving birth.
Hipis - | 227
2 Jul 2012 #35
As Christiacity declines, general human misconduct grows

So all these religious wars between people who worshiped in different branches of the Christian faith don't count as human misconduct?
Harry
2 Jul 2012 #36
Not in the world of P3!

And neither did this:
youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
2 Jul 2012 #37
As Christiacity declines, general human misconduct grows.

Burned any witches recently, have you? I'd say that was one of the best examples of human misconduct ever. And it took place when, according to you, the world was more Christian than it is now. What truly great times those must have been - I must get in my time machine and go back. I can't wait to be wrongly accused.

Was there really as may broken families and as much shoplifting and white-collar crime in your youth as there is now?

No, but the reasons are far more to do with economics and politics, and not with Christian belief (or lack of it).

Your country is one of the most Christian in the world, yet it has one of the highest crime rates in the world. According to your logic, there should be very few social problems in the USA.

Crime is now far less of a problem than it was a couple of hundred years ago but far fewer people now waste their time with fairytales about virgins giving birth.

Exactly. If everyone was such a good Christian a few hundred years ago, then why was it eventually thought necessary to create the police force?

P3 just can't accept that it's possible to accept all (or most) of the Ten Commandments, yet not be religious. I keep all of them, with the exception of the one about adultery - which, naturally, Christians claim also applies to sex before marriage, which is ridiculous. It's no-one's business what anyone does in bed (gay or straight). Besides, we're all descended from out-of-wedlock relationships, as marriage is a comparatively recent institution. I'd prefer to keep that Commandment as well, but it's impossible these days. If you want me to stop partaking in such "immoral" behaviour, then either find me a woman who doesn't cheat or needs "different things" every few months, or stfu and keep out of my business.

If P3 wishes to be forced to live by religious rules, then let him. How the rest of us live is nothing to do with him.
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
2 Jul 2012 #38
As Christiacity [sic.] declines, general human misconduct grows.

As evidenced on the PolishForums website. I already see (and have chosen to ignore a few) of the Anti Christians (including the Anti Semites) here.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Jul 2012 #39
The Crusades, Inquisition, etc. were aberration for which the Church has profusely apologised... but in terms of recent decades it is not so much a matter of belief as it is of ethics. Just taking the post-WW2 period, when church-going was the norm and people at least tried to keep the 10 Commandments, there were fewer unhappy children, broken homes, shopliftings and common crime than in our 'anything-goes', 'feel-good' world devoid of restraints, values and even common sense.. Lawyers and psychiatrists as well as burglar-ałarm and surveillance-camera manufacturers (not to mention drug dealers, prn pedlars and beer barons) are making a killing on today's moral morass.
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
2 Jul 2012 #40
The Crusades, Inquistion, etc. were aberration for which the Church has profusely apologised...

But the Crusadist and similar mindsets have not gone away. Also, we're in the End of Days. No wonder morality is worse.
Hipis - | 227
2 Jul 2012 #41
Just taking the post-WW2 period, when church-going was the norm and people at least tried to keep the 10 Cmmandments, there were fewer unhappy children, broken homes, shopliftings and common crime than in our 'anything-goes', 'feel-good' world devoid of restraints, values and even common sense..

I stopped going to church when I was 17 yet it didn't stop me bringing my children up with a decent sense of morality and values but in a non-religious environment. If people feel they need religion as a crutch then that's fine by me but I can live a good life without some priest, minister, pastor, imam or rabbi lecturing me.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
3 Jul 2012 #42
As evidenced on the PolishForums website. I already see (and have chosen to ignore a few) of the Anti Christians (including the Anti Semites) here.

If becoming a devout Christian leads one to create dreadful thread titles such as this one, then I'm glad I'm a so-called "heathen".
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
3 Jul 2012 #43
Anti Semitism is far from Christian, which was my point. Besides, not all Jews are Leftist or willing to group Catholicism in with Christianity.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
3 Jul 2012 #44
Anti Semitism is far from Christian

Try telling P3 that ;)

Besides, not all Jews are Leftist or willing to group Catholicism in with Christianity.

ditto.

Hang around for a bit longer and you'll learn even more rubbish about the "Jew media" from so-called "Polish" Americans.
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
3 Jul 2012 #45
The poster who created this thread, though, is a Polish (without the quotes) American.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
3 Jul 2012 #46
There are many more, mostly with multiple usernames - with or without quotes ;)
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
3 Jul 2012 #47
I know, and I agree with at least one poster's sentiment that some of them should not be moderators.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
3 Jul 2012 #48
Besides, not all Jews are Leftist or willing to group Catholicism in with Christianity.

People that are not willing to group Catholicism in with Christianity are unfortunately very widespread in the U.S.A. Many young Polonians have had an irritating experience in grade school when kids on the playground began talking about their religion, and they found that fundamentalist Protestant kids have been taught that Roman Catholics are not Christians. I doubt that very many Jewish children hold this misguided view though.
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
3 Jul 2012 #49
It's not misguided at all. Read CARM.org's study. This isn't to say that there aren't Evangelical Catholics or that all Protestants are Evangelical (born again, Christian).
Hipis - | 227
3 Jul 2012 #50
But surely all religion is just mumbo jumbo anyway, an opiate for the masses? I seriously don't think we need an endless debate on theology about whose religion is better at worshipping imaginery cloud dwelling deities.
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
3 Jul 2012 #51
So you say, but the OP brought up religion in the original post; and he came from a Catholic, Anti-Semitic view.
Hipis - | 227
3 Jul 2012 #52
He also came from an anti leftist liberal viewpoint as well but no one seems to want to develop debate along those lines, they only seem obsessed with the religious aspects :)
poland_
3 Jul 2012 #53
As Christiacity declines, general human misconduct grows.

Decency is back in fashion. In times where anonymous financial markets drive politics and social relationships are founded and terminated on Facebook, desire for dependability, for a new entrepreneurial mindset and civil courage is nurtured. The search for this occupies entrepreneurs and managers, politicians and scientists alike. Especially since the financial crisis many have realized that rules and regulations are not the same as morals and values. Calls for more decency are in the focus of public debate - individual responsibility is the solution to the problems.
jon357 71 | 21,105
3 Jul 2012 #54
Old belief systems pass, new ones come. In terms of adherents, Christianity is collapsing. Let's hope the next stage of humanity is better than the last.
Nickidewbear 23 | 599
3 Jul 2012 #55
He also came from an anti leftist liberal viewpoint as well but no one seems to want to develop debate along those lines, they only seem obsessed with the religious aspects :)

Politics emanate from worldview.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
3 Jul 2012 #56
Old belief systems pass, new ones come. In terms of adherents, Christianity is collapsing. Let's hope the next stage of humanity is better than the last.

Dream on. Going to a church every Sunday is by no means sine qua non of being Catholic. I hardly bother for almost 20 years, and I consider myself religious.

Without religion the society would collapse.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,391
3 Jul 2012 #57
All of Poland's media reported the downturn in mass attendnace, but only Wyborcza so brazenly highlighted it with a big, bold headline.

Let me point out to you that you are using exactly the same technique which you despise at Wyborcza. Your headline is: SUNDAY WITHOUT MASS - Judeo-leftist Wyborcza gloats. You highlight the fact that Wyborcza gloats with the fact of only 40% church attendance with attributing them the "judeo-leftist" adjective. This is basically a przyganiał kocioł garnkowi thing!

As someone who reads and browses through a lot of printed press in Poland, I would never associate this newspaper with the "judeo-leftist" adjective. The paper is leftist, but even if Michnik is a Jew himself, and even if many authors who write for the paper may be of Jewish origin, I very naturally perceive them as part of Polish society rather than part of a Jewish community. As someone once shrewdly observed it (wasn't it Norman Davies?), the traditional Polish-Jewish divisions emmigrated from Poland to the US state of New York after the WWII and still remain there. Wyborcza prints a lot of stuff on Christianity and Catholicism in Poland in which discussions herds of Polish Roman Catholic priests take part. And of course, as an every serious paper, Wyborcza has its views on particular subjects.

Still, there are people in Poland who consider them as a "Jewish paper" (there are two among my acquaitances). On the other hand, there is an awful lots of Catholics here (there are many more among my acquaitances) that read Wyborcza every day without even having thought of it as "Jewish". Some say that the Roman Catholic Church in Poland is divided between "Kościół Toruński" and "Kościół £agiewnicki" and there seems to be quite a lot of truth in it (don't they have Republians and Democrats in the US?)! So possibly at least some members of the "Toruń" Roman Catholic Church in Poland may indeed believe in the "Judeo-leftist" character of this biggest "heavy" newspaper daily in Poland.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
3 Jul 2012 #58
Wyborcza prints a lot of stuff on Christianity and Catholicism in Poland in which discussions herds of Polish Roman Catholic priests take part.

There was a great article a while ago in it, written by a priest, that pretty much hit the nail on the head about the Church in Poland. As to be expected, the usual suspects started screaming and crying.

Some say that the Roman Catholic Church in Poland is divided

It's scary as an outsider to see how divided the RCC really is in Poland.

Hang around for a bit longer and you'll learn even more rubbish about the "Jew media" from so-called "Polish" Americans.

They know what's best for Poland!

I wonder if Dav....Dessie is a Gazeta Wyborcza hater?
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
3 Jul 2012 #59
BTW, lots and lots of agnostics and atheists also attend Mass (I used to) for the sake of family members etc. So in fact you have absolutely no idea what's really going on the church-going universe ;-p

Right. My students used to routinely laugh at church. Very few of them took it seriously and I think most of the younger crowd do it just to appease their mother.

Anyway it is not difficult to convince a person to turn away from religion, after all living a morally lawless life and doing whatever feels good sounds like a fantastic life, but it does not mean it is necessarily the right way to live.

I have officially had enough of you. I also officially am going to tell you to go fukc yourself. You self righteous, holy rolling, condescending, arrogant $hit bag. Yes, enjoy that one.

I'm a damn good person without belief in any God and for all you other non-believers on this forum, don't put up with bull$hit like that even for a second.

P3 just can't accept that it's possible to accept all (or most) of the Ten Commandments, yet not be religious.

With all due respect, no it's not possible. The first 4 commandments are entirely religion based. If you don't believe in Jesus, they simply don't apply to you:

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2) Worship only God, do not have any other idols

3) Do not use the Lord's name in vain

4) Keep the Sabbath holy

That already brings your 10 down to 6 if God is not part of your life. Almost half are now useless to you. Even #7 doesn't apply to most people because just about everyone wants to have sex before marriage which as was previously mentioned, is not cool with JC. As for the rest.....not killing, lying, stealing? Geeeeeeenius.......
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Jul 2012 #60
I very naturally perceive them as part of Polish society rather than part of a Jewish community

Yes part of the ex-commies establishment, part of the soviet society in Poland.

and he came from a Catholic, Anti-Semitic view.

Where that nonsense come from ?If you really believe it you are wrong.

And of course, as an every serious paper,

:D

ome say that the Roman Catholic Church in Poland is divided between "Kościół Toruński" and "Kościół £agiewnicki" and there seems to be quite a lot of truth in it

How about Catholic havening different opinions ?There is no such divide.

I have officially had enough of you.

I have enough of you. You are not Catholic nor any faith follower, the topic says nothing about agnostics. What the hell are you doing here ? Longing for conversion or a light of faith?


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