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Poland now soft-pedalling ACTA signing


RoughFlavors 1 | 100
29 Jan 2012 #91
wtf, D? i mean, seriously, you can't pull one scrap of logic out of your a$s... what's all this India nonsense? I'm going to make it real simple for you - I, and many other intelligent people, do not want to be under surveillance by an ISP acting on behalf any government. It's a basic right of a citizen under any civilized legal system. And your counterargument is knockoff drugs, supposedly from India? For real?! There already are laws against counterfeit drugs, and they don't require monitoring the entire population, or people giving up their civil liberties.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2012 #92
i mean, seriously, you can't pull one scrap of logic out of your a$s... what's all this India nonsense?

You're the one that brought up health care, not me. The whole "anti-generic" attack is on India - it has nothing to do with legally sold generic drugs in Europe, and 100% to do with stopping knock-off Indian (and Chinese, though less so) drugs.

I, and many other intelligent people, do not want to be under surveillance by an ISP acting on behalf any government.

I'm more amused that you seem to think that you aren't already under such surveillance. Never heard of Echelon, have we?

It's a basic right of a citizen under any civilized legal system.

Echelon already thoroughly dissects your communications.

And your counterargument is knockoff drugs, supposedly from India? For real?! There already are laws against counterfeit drugs, and they don't require monitoring the entire population, or people giving up their civil liberties.

I wasn't talking about anything else, rather just countering the whole fallacy that ACTA will stop access to generic drugs.

Anyway, you gave up your civil liberties the second you took up American residency.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
29 Jan 2012 #93
You're the one that brought up health care, not me

as a matter of fact, i did not. I just responded to your nonsensical statement about generics.

you gave up your civil liberties the second you took up American residency.

you're boring as f*ck with your anti-Americanism.

the rest of it - tl;dr
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2012 #94
as a matter of fact, i did not. I just responded to your nonsensical statement about generics.

Nah, you just ranted blindly about how India couldn't possible be ripping off European drug companies, no no..course not. Never.

you're boring as f*ck with your anti-Americanism.

Yawn. America pretends to be the land of the free, but we all know fine well that it isn't. The bullying of Poland by the US Embassy recently is just yet another fine example why America really should just get lost and deal with her own problems first. Then again, you'll never say a bad word about the country that let you escape from the village, eh?
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
29 Jan 2012 #95
you'll never say a bad word about the country that let you escape from the village, eh?

even if you had the guts to tell people the truth about the sh*thut you left behind, you still wouldn't have the brains to understand a concept more complex than America=bad. "Village" is not an insult, D. I happen to be proud of where I came from, and proud of the country where I chose to live, even if I'm critical of both at times.

Now, why don't you put your wikipedia PhD to work and explain why ACTA is such a brilliant idea. Or is one semi-smart argument that does not involve bashing America too much to ask for?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2012 #96
even if you had the guts to tell people the truth about the sh*thut you left behind,

What, a provincial city in a small European country? Sorry, but I don't deny coming from a beautiful (in summer, when the sun shines) city that has 11 months of crap weather and people who have a massive chip on their shoulder. And you? :)

you still wouldn't have the brains to understand a concept more complex than America=bad.

I'm wondering how brains and guts are related. The two are generally in inverse proportion.

And yes, America is generally bad when they act as the world's policeman. ACTA is, after all, an American invention.

"Village" is not an insult, D.

Village is very much an insult in urbane Poland.

I happen to be proud of where I came from, and proud of the country where I chose to live, even if I'm critical of both at times.

If you were so proud, why do you criticise Poland and her ways so frequently for your few posts? It's the old Polish complex again - you can see countless examples online where they've moved abroad and immediately fall in love with their new surroundings - all the while criticising Poland for being this, that and the next thing. You're not the first and not the last to exhibit such strange behaviour.

Now, why don't you put your wikipedia PhD to work and explain why ACTA is such a brilliant idea. Or is one semi-smart argument that does not involve bashing America too much to ask for?

Some provisions within ACTA are no bad thing - being able to legally seize those aforementioned Indian fake drugs for instance, even when they're merely in transit through ACTA signatory countries can only be a good thing. Bear in mind that the Indians certainly aren't taking responsibility for any problems with the drugs.

Then again, I doubt you've actually read what ACTA proposes - and you certainly don't seem to understand that signing ACTA isn't the same thing as ratifying it.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
29 Jan 2012 #97
well, D, let me explain to you how far your head got up your a$s.

my father served for years in the Polish army, before went on to a career in chemical engineering. His father served in the Polish army, too, and then worked for decades in a coalmine, until his job cost him his life one day. His father, in turn, fought in the first two Silesian uprisings - he would have fought in the third one, probably, too, except he got killed. My mother's father and his brother fought all the way through Europe with General Anders, and were just two of those many silly "village" Polacks running up the hill of Monte Cassino. He survived, only missing an ear, and came back to Poland afterwards - his brother wasn't so lucky. My grandpa became quite known in our "village," too, for coming to all the nine high schools for years just to tell the students about the war. His father fought all three Silesian uprisings - and survived, only to be taken to Auschwitz for helping his Jewish friend and his pregnant wife, never to be seen or heard from again. The earlier generations died various deaths, from being shot for teaching Polish to dying in Prussian and Russian prisons for participating in the Greater Poland Uprising and the January Uprising.

so excuse me for not being duly insulted by some "urbane" f*cktard like you because I supposedly hail from some "village." There is very little you can tell me about being Polish, or about respecting my freedom.

and no, your Indian counterfeit drug BS does not convince me to let myself be monitored 24/7
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jan 2012 #98
well, D, let me explain to you how far your head got up your a$s.

Learnt that language in the village, too? Explains things.

so excuse me for not being duly insulted by some "urbane" f*cktard like you because I supposedly hail from some "village." There is very little you can tell me about being Polish, or about respecting my freedom.

If you respected your freedom, you wouldn't live in the United States.

I'm also fairly certain that your little story is just that - a little story. The way you talk...nah. Just no.
Wroclaw Boy
29 Jan 2012 #99
If you respected your freedom, you wouldn't live in the United States.

easy for you to say, you came to Poland what four years ago? once Poland was in the EU and in general a much easier country to live and work in. The people you and Harry constantly criticise lived here during communism and the hard times following right up to the early 21st century. Much different from the current times.
hythorn 3 | 580
29 Jan 2012 #100
Not with ACTA in place you can't

no, you are wrong. after 21 years since its patent registration, Viagra's patent will expire
then it is open season and anyone can have a stab at making a generic

the fact that Sun did that in India years ago and market a pirate version called Erecto, is besides the point
they cannot sell it in Europe

what is getting Oxfam bothered is that these pirate drugs are being made in India and flogged in Africa
they are dirt cheap and poor African people can afford them

however as neither India nor any country in Africa (as far as I aware) signed up to Acta there is nothing to worry about

the price of drugs in the states is obscene so you might be illegally importing snide drugs through the Internet
if you are, ACTA will effect you big time
Jimmu 2 | 157
30 Jan 2012 #101
Two things about ACTA really bother me, and no one seems to be talking about them.
First is that under ACTA a person can be fined or jailed and their property confiscated on the basis of an accusation by an alleged copyright holder. After proving their innocence, the accused may apply for redress forcing the accuser to pay their court costs. Not damages, just court costs. Due process and presumption of innocence. Who needs 'em?

Second is that the commission controlling ACTA may modify it in any way they choose without the permission of the signatories. "Sign here, don't worry about the details. We'll fill that all in later."
Ironside 51 | 11,337
30 Jan 2012 #102
newsne.nowyekran.pl/post/49383,polish-government-debates-stance-on-copyright-treaty-after-internet-attacks
Reaction in Poland:


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Feb 2012 #103
Tusk has backed down saying he no longer intends the submit the ACTA treaty for ratification and may scrub it entirely. The street has carried the day, and the cheapies who have no regard for copyrights or trademarks will be able to keep downloading their music, films and prn free of charge and with impunity.
mafketis 34 | 11,609
4 Feb 2012 #104
able to keep downloading their music, films and prn free of charge and with impunity

Yea for free pûrn with impunity! In your face (in a manner of speaking) Polonius3!!!

Seriously, most legal analysts say this has no real meaning. It just means he won't push ratification but the process will proceed.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
4 Feb 2012 #105
What's comical is that much of the anti-ACTA protests (especially in Poznan) were led by PiS supporters.

Nice of you to admit that they are all "cheapies who have no regard" - we all knew that already.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
4 Feb 2012 #106
t just means he won't push ratification but the process will proceed.

Yeah, the E.U'll push it through.

prn free of charge

Some of the rest of us get free sex too!
PuraguCryostato - | 3
6 Feb 2012 #107
Do you people (and give a straight answer for once) favour:
-- the flood of fake and counterfeit (mostly 'Made in China' but not exclusively)? products flooding the world market ?

Products are flooding the world market because there is a demand for cheap products. I am sure you don't own made in Germany and Made in USA/Japan products but Made in China and Made in Korea/Taiwan. I at least own some expensive Japanese and American products because I am happy to pay extra for better quality but do you do that?

-- composers, artists, film directors , actors and other creative people being deprived of their rightful royalties and effectviely have their intellectual property stolen?

It's not self evident that these people have rightful royalties. Rightful royalties are a 17th century construct. There were no loyalties prior to this - instead we had folklore, folk music, folk dress, folk culture and folk customs. The world survived then. Artists had patrons or were paid per performance. Secondly most artists do not make loyalties because publishers such as Sony Music or Warner Brothers hold the copyright and enforce a cartel like monopoly with differential pricing, availability and released dates. Some products never make it outside of their borders. Artists don't get paid but middlemen do. Thirdly why should the artist be allowed to profit from an idea he stole from someone else? Most ideas are stolen from someone else. Is there really anything genuinely original ever? Most books, films, games, music is a copy of something else. Often it is pilfered from public domain. Most people get paid while they work but for some reason an artist is allowed to get paid many times over for the same thing while doing nothing new. This model seems unfair and its not self evidently true why it should be so. In fact it probably reduces innovation. Why make a new product when I can get paid for my old work, many times over? But as said, most artists aren't even that lucky.

Do you pay your plumber for the pipes he installed in your house every month? Do you have to ask him permission before you share your toilet with guests? What if you run a hotel? Do you pay a different rate and a subscription for the plumber's job? No. He worked, he got paid for it. End of story.

With the internet there is a new opportunity for artists to eliminate the middle men and sell directly to the public. Also, piracy = free advertising. It's been shown in research studies that piracy increases sales. Look at Adobe Photoshop. Look at Bill Gates, when he said that he'd prefer the Chinese pirate MS products instead of competitors'. Why? Because one day these people will decide to move to a legitimate source and guess which choice they'll choose - yes Windows, MS Office and Adobe Photoshop (the products they know). Look at the success of the Japanese animation industry because of fansubbing piracy. Japanese producers who had no intent to market to the outside world were surprised when people started buying their CDs, laserdiscs, DVDs, merchandise, clothing, etc.

The current media business is outdated and needs to either evolve or face extinction. Differential pricing, purposeful unavailability and other artificial restrictions should be done away with. Sites like iTunes, Gog.com and Crunchyroll.com have managed to find a way to make profits despite high piracy rates. These sites sell content at prices people are more willing to pay. Sadly the Media industry with the protection of state organs can get away with outdated practices because they will just legislate competition away, instead of using piracy as free advertising and selling digital downloads for a reasonable fee as soon as the product is available. Most people want to pay for things they like but sadly currently this is often impossible - product not available and will never be available in given region, or the price is too high, e.g. a CD with only one good song costs $20, while iTunes has the one good song for $1. Sadly iTunes is not available internationally. Such artificial restrictions should be done away with. DVDs, XBOX games and Blurays have region restrictions so even if you order from a foreign website you are blocked!

And if these businesses and artists et al don't want to adapt, then they should close down their business. They should no longer be in business and then there will be no more piracy on the internet. I think this option is preferable to internet policing and censorship.

-- having an 'anything goes' approach to the Internet where anonymous individuals can engage in libel with impunity (they couldn't get away with that on radio, TV or the press!) ,show how to construct bombs with household products, promote terrorism, run hate sites, glamourise incest, padophilia and zoofilia as well as many other socially despicable activities?
-- turning hackers who jeopardise the national security of countries by disabling defense and other sensitive official sites hailed as heroes and saviours?

This is false. We don't have anything goes at present. For one child prno is outlawed and prnographers are prosecuted and sent to jail. For another sites like MegaUpload which profited from piracy can and have been shut down with ACTA. Thirdly certain types of speech are illegal. Inciting violence or spreading national secrets will get you arrested. You can be found online.

National defense systems do not need (and should not) to be connected to the internet, in fact none are. What is often hacked are portals of public sites. And hacking can be prosecuted under current laws. How would you like the police to stop your car and search you every hour because somewhere someone is shoplifting? It's not necessary and it's unwelcome. Why should my freedom be held hostage because some shop is being robbed or some Hollywood publisher refuses to change his business model? There are laws against criminals already. Sites which glamorize pedophilia are being shut down and offenders arrested. It's very easy. DMCA take downs do work and copyrighted contents are taken down from file sharing sites.

ACTA has admittedly not been publicly consulted and mayl contain various snags and loopholes. But the ratification process is an extended one and all the kinks should get ironed out eventually. If not, it will not be accepted by the EP or national parliaments, so why the big stink?!
milky

Why not have a big stink? Why should only politicos be allowed to make a stink? And if ACTA does not bother you, why are you making a big stink yourself?

The copyright system needs reform. Businesses which refuse to do so, should move over to an alternative form of business. This is how capitalism works, if you don't adapt you fail. Look at all the blacksmiths and horsewhip manufacturers who went bankrupt when cars and trains came out. The internet makes distribution different and businesses have to get with it.

If I ever get caught shoplifting, I will just scream "Freedom of Speech!".

Except this is not theft. Copyright infrigement is not the same as theft. For one, theft will probably get you a suspended sentence or a fine of several thousand dollars, whereas uploading a song, when properly prosecuted (in a civil case) will get you a fine of several million dollars.

But copying is not theft. We do it all the time. Human beings by nature copy everything they see. You copy your parents and teachers and role models. We learn by copying. It's part of our nature. Theft is taking something AWAY from someone so that he no longer has it. It is a significant difference.

Intellectual properties are a new invention. In fact we can un-invent them and return to the days of patronage and actual performance art. It's not self evident why Copyright has to exist. You only think it does because you've swallowed the propaganda. But people did not have copyright for 1000s of years. They did pretty well. (But even so I don't advocate total outlawing of copyright, just sanity and fairness to what ideas and human nature/natural law really is). Also copyright these days is being perpetually extended - why? Why is Mickey Mouse still copyrighted but one can download Mozart and Chopin's sheet music and perform them in public in front of millions for profit? Sorry, something is not right about this.

When you SHARE stuff from a supermarket you REMOVE it from the supermarket. It is GONE! When you OWN a DISK you PURCHASED you should be allowed to do with it whatever you want. If you want to make a copy because technology allows it and give it to your friends, it should be your right. It is yours. The idea that there is a separation between the content of the CD and the CD itself is a modern day absurdity. No ancient person in first century AD or ancient Greece or Rome would believe this.

Only way copyright can be theft if you take a work and pretend it is yours, copy it and sell it for profit while the purchasers think they are buying originals or if you take the original work and destroy all the copies the copyright holder has. It cannot be theft otherwise. You are not getting the equivalent of an original when you make a copy.

Finally appeals to sheriffs don't make sense. Sheriffs do not create the law. They are not authorities on the subject.

Civic psychology = yes and we should obey Hitler, Stalin etc too. Yes they were all legal. They were the authorities. In a democracy people rule and unfair laws have to be changed. And if that leads to loss of money for some, then that's just too bad.


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