Shops in Poland to be closed on Sunday?

What you might feel or pretend is a sectarian statement from the point of view of an Irish (especially Northern Irish) person is not necessarily sectarian in the context of other European countries.

What can never, ever be described as sectarian is the freedom to ask someone to prove the reality of whatever (like a god, goddess, prophet, spaghetti monster etc) the basis of a belief system is if they are trying to force someone to live their lives according to that belief system. Preventing shop staff working and customers buying on a 'holy day' on the basis of a religion, any religion, is a perfect example of that.

The concepts of good and evil create morality, not the other way around. Neither morality nor virtue are universal across cultures. But basic gut feelings about doing good and doing evil would be rather similar.

You speak of modern ideologies. To me, they are semi-religious, artificial constructs to be avoided at all costs.


So atheism is not a religion after all?

Its not what I feel its a matter of fact.


Holding one denomination to a different standard is sectarian in any place and that is what Harry did.


As has been pointed out from the very beginning of this thread the reform of trading laws is not exclusively about religion.

We are having our summer today and I don't want to waste it pointing out the obvious.

The excuses here and the statements in the original post are almost exclusively about religion.


No. There are no other significant 'denominations' in Poland. A country where society does not consistently live up to the main religion's values.

There are no excuses just people with different opinions never the less your main point is not true,

From the original post


Only one religious reason there, as I said it's about more than religion but some chose to focus upon religion.


No one is doubting that most Polish people are baptised Catholic that is not the point. The point is that Harry chose to hold Catholics to a higher standard than others whether they live in Poland or not just as you are doing now.

Still telling lies about me then Barney? Pity. Will you at least give yourself the sabbath off.

As for holding Catholics to a higher standard, that's what they are supposed to do themselves: they are supposed to hold themselves to the standards set forth by their lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Sadly a great many of them do not. One example of that is the Catholics in Poland who are trying to force their views on Sunday trading onto other people.

As true as true gets. The other points are just excuses trotted out to attempt to back up an unscientific worldview.


Given that the religious group in question are so sure they have absolute truth that they have tortured and killed people who dare to doubt it, I'm sure they're happy to be held to a higher standard than others.

That is your opinion which is not correct, the OP gave a number of reasons why Sunday trading should or should not be changed, you and others decided it must be religious reasons and then Harry appointed himself arbiter of Christianity.

Only one religious reason was suggested by the OP and four non religious reasons that is fact.


And you appointed yourself to decide if they have done that, deciding that Catholics dont follow the teachings of Christ that is bigoted.


Firstly your statement is wrong and secondly if true they were not alone however there is a thread about that so post your hypocrisy there.

Scientifically prove the basis of your views or forever hold your peace.


And you appointed yourself to attempt to argue an opposing view?


Entirely right actually, though your comment suggests you aren't about to join the Oxford Union any day soon.

You would like to argue about what you think the op's intentions were and not the words he used, then ask me to scientifically something? That is crazy....

Only one religious reason was suggested by the OP and four non religious reasons that is fact unless you would like to demonstrate otherwise.

I made no value judgment Harry did that by deciding that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ, I simply described the self appointed arbiter status necessary to make such a bigoted statement ie Harry made a value judgement on Catholics, holding them to a higher standard than others.


As I said search out the other thread or start a new thread and I shall debate that point there but not here.

Jon by trying to appear smart you have made a number of blunders pointing them out will only result in more off topic stuff.

When humans start to think that such knowledge (about morality) comes, not from above, but from their own intellects or gut feelings, bad stuff starts to happen, because ultimately if you have your own idea of what is good and what is evil, then why can't I have my own as well? And why not my uncle and his dog too? Why should I follow your moral compass instead of someone else's, or my own?

Nietzsche was all about re-evaluating values, and indeed that's the only way to attempt to replace God in His throne, and it's what Satanism is about as well. Aptly, Nietzsche titled his last work "Anti-Christian", and went mad soon after.


Nietzsche went mad because he was smart enough to understand what a universe without God actually meant, unlike the average atheists and their childish and self-congratulating "rationalism".


Atheism is so much a religion as nihilism is an ideology.

I would say most people's gut feelings about good and evil are similar. It's the various ideologies and religions you have to be wary of.

Spot on. Especially when that ideology starts to spill out into legislation.


Happily, since we are discussing legislation that affects us all.


Rightly so, since they claim to have absolute truth.

Really Barney? Would you like to quote me saying that? Or are you very simply lying about me yet again? Didn't Jesus have very specific things to say about not lying? Wasn't bearing false witness one of the commandments that Jesus told his followers that they must keep? And here you are, breaking that very commandment. Do we need any further proof that some Catholics do not follow the teachings of Christ?


I wonder when people will realise that religious beliefs very simply have no place in legislation.

The point was that there are more than religious reasons for changing Sunday trading laws as the OP stated you wanted to discuss what you thought his intentions were. Not for the first time you have now decided to debate a different point because you were shown to be totally incorrect.

Of course we are discussing legislation and it's not all to do with religion as the OP stated.


And that is the point, all religions claim absolute truth otherwise they are not religions. Harry chose to hold one to different standards.


You seen totally incapable of remembering what you wrote, yet again here is just one quote

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ

And you decide if they meet your bench mark ie you appointed yourself judge.

You made a sectarian comment that's it Harry

It is just a wishful conjecture. it may seem like that to you because you live in place where, as I said, christian morality has been ingrained in our civilization for so long its not going to disappear overnight, but it will eventually weaken and brake.

nature.com/news/how-to-confuse-a-moral-compass-1.11447

Read it Magdalena. It's all there, truth revealed, because it's not going to matter soon anyway. Imagine how ugly things are outside of a safe, christian culture zone. Human monkeys truly only care just about who is the WINNER, the big man with all the big coconuts. They don't care for truth because they literally do not understand the concept. Watch them in the RNC and DNC conferences just act along for the scripted lines, and take it all as normal.

youtube.com/watch?v=BUG_USh1OFM

These are beasts made in the shape of man.

Only modern ideologies require blind worship, because you have to accept artificial and arbitrary constructs that have no inherent truth in them. Traditional societies are characterized by worship in the face of total truth. In such a context, worship ceases to be compulsory and becomes "free" in a real sense. This is why communist governments have to rely on despotic means to maintain themselves, because they are trying to enforce something that is unnatural and artificial. Everytime people are given free reign over their own will, they begin to revert back to traditional ways. The only way modernism can prevent the natural instincts of individuals to return to tradition is constant monitoring and control.

That said, people still need guidance because while we all have a natural predisposition for the ways of tradition, exact knowledge of traditional truths is still something that cannot simply be attained spontaneously (and not by the majority in the first place). Hence, the role of revelation and faith. The latter only exists due to the fact the majority of human beings are not suited to understand the naked truth of divine realities. This creates the illusion of compulsory worship so despised among undomursticurted snowmnfags (even though the ideologies of non-domestication of snowmen are infinitely more compulsory, to wit, the necessity of constant propaganda and brainwashing), where people are called to bow down to something they can only understand in an approximate manner. But because this "something" is none other then absolute truth, even this approximation has an illuminating effect in the mind and heart of the worshiper. This is not to say religion institutions cannot become corrupted, as they certainly are today. I believe much of your hatred for religion stems from your perception of what those religious institutions have become, not what they were originally.

In Poland only believers of one religion are trying to force their beliefs down the throats of everybody. That would be the Catholic faith.


I see that you are still lying: the bench-mark is not mine, the bench-mark is that set down by your lord and saviour, Jesus Christ. His teachings, and you, despite being a Catholic, failing to observe his teaching about not telling lies. But thank you once again for demonstrating that it's a a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ.

How arrogant!
You and you alone know the ultimate truth, you and you alone can decide the true meaning of the lords words.


Really, I'm a Catholic that is news to me man you are on a roll.


As pointed out above several times the proposed changes to Sunday trading are not just about religion, the OP stated as much. You have decided it's about religion and nothing else.

Matthew chapter 19, verses 16 to 19
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Jesus is the one who says that you must not lie Barney. I really don't care whether you lie or not (I just point out your lies and usually laugh at them).


Gone through the procedure of leaving the church, have you?

Well Barney I think it is a bit too extreme to expect the doves of tolerance and freedom here to do as they preach. They would like to wipe out Christianity form the face of the Earth. The only reason they do not admit it openly is tactical and to fool unsuspected people.

Being Godless do not make them better as they ideology is their religion in the name of which they would torture and kill people given a chance as history teaches us.


They would be democracy Harry. Would you by any chance advocating anti-Democratic practices here?

Seriously Harry?

Man you really are on a different planet


That is about right, Could you imagine someone making such a statement about another race, nationality or religion it would be rightly condemned.

That is the classic definition of racism (in this case religious bigotry) setting a standard then criticising a group or individual because they don't meet that standard.


Its officious people like you that enable genocide.

Yes Barney, those are seriously believed to be the words of Jesus. His standards, his bench-marks. His followers are supposed to follow his teachings: a lot of them do not. Which is a bit hypcritical, given that they want Sunday trading to be banned because they claim Sunday as the 'Lord's day'.


I see from your latest insult that you really are trying to dig your way out of the hole you've put yourself in by digging all the way to Australia. Good luck with that.

As I said, I have lived in India, well outside the Christian culture zone, and I have seen no ugliness beyond what I can also see within that zone. I repeat once again that humans have a deep need for spirituality and spontaneously seek ways to approach god, or enlightenment, or higher truth, or whatever you wish to call it, and I am no different. The only people I see who do not pursue this goal at all are people who are either brainwashed by one of the ruling ideologies, or are born psychopaths / sociopaths (this is a disorder that no religion or faith can cure). In its current incarnation, Christianity has largely become no more than an ideology, with the faithful expected to blindly follow certain precepts; try asking your local parish priest one or two more difficult theological questions, and you will get a dismissive answer, if any! I would tend to agree that any faith practiced by a person with a probing, intelligent mind might bring them closer to ultimate truth or god or any other mystical experience you may wish to name; but thoughtless repetition of ritual paired with an inflexible attitude to human weaknesses and quirks only serves to create robotic worshippers of graven images or (as in Islam) of words in a book. What I have said about Christianity I could repeat about any of the major world religions. As mass movements, they are no more than very powerful ideologies, though you might find spiritual truth in most of them. But they are all human approximations of something which is way above any religion. I have no idea whether a higher truth or a mystical union with the universe (or whatever) actually exist or are possible.


Now where did I say that I hate religion? I am actually quite interested in religions from a philosophical and psychological point of view, and I find most of them absolutely fascinating. I do see their spiritual potential for the right person; but I also see how they dull the inner perception of most people, who are content to swallow whatever is presented to them without a single thought of their own. In a typical crowded Sunday church, how many people do you think actually have any sort of a religious experience? Most of them are bored stiff and are just waiting for the whole thing to be over so they can go home for Sunday dinner. But they keep coming because that's the done thing. What would the priest say? What would the neighbours say? Religion gives them form without substance.

Yes seriously, you quoted the Bible as your excuse or explanation for interpreting the word of Jesus. That Book is full of stuff anyone can make fit anything and is the point of your Bigotry. You chose your own interpretation and applied it to people you knew would fall short that is bigotry. If you apply the same standard to everyone everyone is equal, no one meets your standards but you didn't do that you chose to apply your standard to Catholics only.


Its not an insult Harry, you said I was a Catholic I told you I wasn't yet you are trying to invoke some obscure reference to prove that I am indeed a Catholic. That is exactly the kind of officious mindset that enables humans to destroy other humans.

Wiki and the Bible are not great rocks to build a logical argument.


And again Harry not everyone who wishes to reform the Sunday trading laws want to do so for religious reasons. It's a bit bigoted to suggest they do simply because you believe them to be Catholic and you believe that that is what all Catholics want.

If you have lived in India, then you must have turned a blind eye to the persecution of Christians. India is one of the most offending religious rights violators along with Pakistan and other Muslim coiuntries, not to mention North Korea.

Unless you do not regard such persecution including murder, arson and other violent attacks as manifestations of 'ugliness'.

Interpreting? The meaning of the phrase 'do not bear false witness' is pretty much crystal clear; it requires no 'interpreting'.


This is not just 'stuff': it is one of the very basic teachings of Jesus.


And there you go lying again. I interpreted nothing: I pointed out the crystal clear teaching of Jesus.
There really is very little point in discussing things with you if all you are going to do is lie.

And here all along I had thought the passage about satan quoting the bible was just a nice parable. It turns out it is actually

a reality.

Calling someone Satan is about as childish as it gets, particularly when it is you that spent a Church holiday posting hate-filled bile on PolishForums when most of us were out having fun.


I had a think about this, and these are some of the professions that had to work yesterday -

Medical workers (including clerical staff)
Those involved with food/drink
Zookeepers
Transport workers (bus/train drivers, lorry drivers, etc)
Those working in the many "Jarmark" that you can find throughout Poland
Leisure attractions
Security guards
Those working with vulnerable children - e.g. in orphanages
Construction workers (saw some working)
Those on call (for instance, IT workers)
Those working in small shops (I noticed yesterday that many Zabka shops were open fairly long hours, and they most certainly weren't family members)

Outsourced service jobs (I have a friend that works with the UK and has UK, not Polish holidays)

And many, many more. Can someone please give me just one credible reason why supermarket workers are to be singled out as somehow being more important than the rest of these people?

Yes Interpreting, your phrase was......

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ

You are now claiming that there is no interpretation of any passage in the Bible or reconciling conflicting passages in the bible (which also involves interpretation) in order for you to make such a judgment? That is truly dishonest.

You set yourself up as Judge and condemned people just like any common racist, anti semite or intolerant bigot


Not more important simply because all cannot benefit doesn't mean that none can

Do forgive me for ignoring your off-topic insults and lies and instead focusing on the topic of this thread.
Nobody benefits from a ban on Sunday trading. A lot of people lose money they cannot afford to lose, a lot of people lose their jobs and a lot more people are inconvenienced. Nobody benefits because nobody is forced to work on Sundays.