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Shops in Poland to be closed on Sunday?


jon357 69 | 18,363
30 May 2013 #121
That is what sectarian statements do, they curtail freedom

What you might feel or pretend is a sectarian statement from the point of view of an Irish (especially Northern Irish) person is not necessarily sectarian in the context of other European countries.

What can never, ever be described as sectarian is the freedom to ask someone to prove the reality of whatever (like a god, goddess, prophet, spaghetti monster etc) the basis of a belief system is if they are trying to force someone to live their lives according to that belief system. Preventing shop staff working and customers buying on a 'holy day' on the basis of a religion, any religion, is a perfect example of that.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
30 May 2013 #122
Morality is ultimately relative and it tends to differ from culture to culture.

The concepts of good and evil create morality, not the other way around. Neither morality nor virtue are universal across cultures. But basic gut feelings about doing good and doing evil would be rather similar.

You speak of modern ideologies. To me, they are semi-religious, artificial constructs to be avoided at all costs.

but I came to conclusion that any faith is better then atheism.

So atheism is not a religion after all?
Barney 15 | 1,476
30 May 2013 #123
What you might feel or pretend is a sectarian statement from the point of view of an Irish (especially Northern Irish) person is not necessarily sectarian in the context of other European countries.

Its not what I feel its a matter of fact.

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ

Holding one denomination to a different standard is sectarian in any place and that is what Harry did.

Preventing shop staff working and customers buying on a 'holy day' on the basis of a religion, any religion, is a perfect example of that.

As has been pointed out from the very beginning of this thread the reform of trading laws is not exclusively about religion.

We are having our summer today and I don't want to waste it pointing out the obvious.
jon357 69 | 18,363
30 May 2013 #124
As has been pointed out from the very beginning of this thread the reform of trading laws is not exclusively about religion.

The excuses here and the statements in the original post are almost exclusively about religion.

Holding one denomination to a different standard is sectarian in any place and that is what Harry did.

No. There are no other significant 'denominations' in Poland. A country where society does not consistently live up to the main religion's values.
Barney 15 | 1,476
30 May 2013 #125
The excuses here and the statements in the original post are almost exclusively about religion.

There are no excuses just people with different opinions never the less your main point is not true,

From the original post

--Keeping holy the Lord's Day
--A day for home and family
--Cashiers and shop assistants also need Sunday off
--The ban is backied by the trade unions
--Shops are closed on Sunday in Germany, Austria and elsewhere
Arguments against include:
--Some people are busy all week and can shop only on Sunday
--Poland cannot afford to lose sales during a crisis.
Where do you stand on this?

Only one religious reason there, as I said it's about more than religion but some chose to focus upon religion.

No. There are no other significant 'denominations' in Poland. A country where society does not consistently live up to the main religion's values.

No one is doubting that most Polish people are baptised Catholic that is not the point. The point is that Harry chose to hold Catholics to a higher standard than others whether they live in Poland or not just as you are doing now.
Harry
30 May 2013 #126
Still telling lies about me then Barney? Pity. Will you at least give yourself the sabbath off.

As for holding Catholics to a higher standard, that's what they are supposed to do themselves: they are supposed to hold themselves to the standards set forth by their lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Sadly a great many of them do not. One example of that is the Catholics in Poland who are trying to force their views on Sunday trading onto other people.
jon357 69 | 18,363
30 May 2013 #127
There are no excuses just people with different opinions never the less your main point is not true

As true as true gets. The other points are just excuses trotted out to attempt to back up an unscientific worldview.

No one is doubting that most Polish people are baptised Catholic that is not the point. The point is that Harry chose to hold Catholics to a higher standard than others whether they live in Poland or not just as you are doing now.

Given that the religious group in question are so sure they have absolute truth that they have tortured and killed people who dare to doubt it, I'm sure they're happy to be held to a higher standard than others.
Barney 15 | 1,476
30 May 2013 #128
The other points are just excuses trotted out to attempt to back up an unscientific worldview.

That is your opinion which is not correct, the OP gave a number of reasons why Sunday trading should or should not be changed, you and others decided it must be religious reasons and then Harry appointed himself arbiter of Christianity.

Only one religious reason was suggested by the OP and four non religious reasons that is fact.

As for holding Catholics to a higher standard, that's what they are supposed to do themselves: they are supposed to hold themselves to the standards set forth by their lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

And you appointed yourself to decide if they have done that, deciding that Catholics dont follow the teachings of Christ that is bigoted.

Given that the religious group in question are so sure they have absolute truth that they have tortured and killed people who dare to doubt it, I'm sure they're happy to be held to a higher standard than others.

Firstly your statement is wrong and secondly if true they were not alone however there is a thread about that so post your hypocrisy there.
jon357 69 | 18,363
30 May 2013 #129
That is your opinion which is not correct,

Scientifically prove the basis of your views or forever hold your peace.

And you appointed yourself to decide if they have done that, deciding that Catholics dont follow the teachings of Christ that is bigoted.

And you appointed yourself to attempt to argue an opposing view?

Firstly your statement is wrong and secondly if true they were not alone however there is a thread about that so post your hypocrisy there.

Entirely right actually, though your comment suggests you aren't about to join the Oxford Union any day soon.
Barney 15 | 1,476
30 May 2013 #130
Scientifically prove the basis of your views or forever hold your peace.

You would like to argue about what you think the op's intentions were and not the words he used, then ask me to scientifically something? That is crazy....

Only one religious reason was suggested by the OP and four non religious reasons that is fact unless you would like to demonstrate otherwise.

I made no value judgment Harry did that by deciding that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ, I simply described the self appointed arbiter status necessary to make such a bigoted statement ie Harry made a value judgement on Catholics, holding them to a higher standard than others.

Entirely right actually, though your comment suggests you aren't about to join the Oxford Union any day soon.

As I said search out the other thread or start a new thread and I shall debate that point there but not here.

Jon by trying to appear smart you have made a number of blunders pointing them out will only result in more off topic stuff.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
30 May 2013 #131
The concepts of good and evil create morality, not the other way around. Neither morality nor virtue are universal across cultures. But basic gut feelings about doing good and doing evil would be rather similar.

When humans start to think that such knowledge (about morality) comes, not from above, but from their own intellects or gut feelings, bad stuff starts to happen, because ultimately if you have your own idea of what is good and what is evil, then why can't I have my own as well? And why not my uncle and his dog too? Why should I follow your moral compass instead of someone else's, or my own?

Nietzsche was all about re-evaluating values, and indeed that's the only way to attempt to replace God in His throne, and it's what Satanism is about as well. Aptly, Nietzsche titled his last work "Anti-Christian", and went mad soon after.

You speak of modern ideologies. To me, they are semi-religious, artificial constructs to be avoided at all costs.

Nietzsche went mad because he was smart enough to understand what a universe without God actually meant, unlike the average atheists and their childish and self-congratulating "rationalism".

So atheism is not a religion after all?

Atheism is so much a religion as nihilism is an ideology.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
31 May 2013 #132
if you have your own idea of what is good and what is evil, then why can't I have my own as well?

I would say most people's gut feelings about good and evil are similar. It's the various ideologies and religions you have to be wary of.
jon357 69 | 18,363
31 May 2013 #133
Spot on. Especially when that ideology starts to spill out into legislation.

ask me to scientifically something?

Happily, since we are discussing legislation that affects us all.

Harry made a value judgement on Catholics, holding them to a higher standard than others

Rightly so, since they claim to have absolute truth.

I would say most people's gut feelings about good and evil are similar. It's the various ideologies and religions you have to be wary of.

Harry
31 May 2013 #134
Harry did that by deciding that Catholics don't follow the teachings of Christ,

Really Barney? Would you like to quote me saying that? Or are you very simply lying about me yet again? Didn't Jesus have very specific things to say about not lying? Wasn't bearing false witness one of the commandments that Jesus told his followers that they must keep? And here you are, breaking that very commandment. Do we need any further proof that some Catholics do not follow the teachings of Christ?

Especially when that ideology starts to spill out into legislation.

I wonder when people will realise that religious beliefs very simply have no place in legislation.
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #135
Barney: ask me to scientifically something?
Happily, since we are discussing legislation that affects us all.

The point was that there are more than religious reasons for changing Sunday trading laws as the OP stated you wanted to discuss what you thought his intentions were. Not for the first time you have now decided to debate a different point because you were shown to be totally incorrect.

Of course we are discussing legislation and it's not all to do with religion as the OP stated.

Rightly so, since they claim to have absolute truth.

And that is the point, all religions claim absolute truth otherwise they are not religions. Harry chose to hold one to different standards.

Really Barney? Would you like to quote me saying that? Or are you very simply lying about me yet again?

You seen totally incapable of remembering what you wrote, yet again here is just one quote

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ

And you decide if they meet your bench mark ie you appointed yourself judge.

You made a sectarian comment that's it Harry
kondzior 12 | 1,242
31 May 2013 #136
I would say most people's gut feelings about good and evil are similar. It's the various ideologies and religions you have to be wary of.

It is just a wishful conjecture. it may seem like that to you because you live in place where, as I said, christian morality has been ingrained in our civilization for so long its not going to disappear overnight, but it will eventually weaken and brake.

nature.com/news/how-to-confuse-a-moral-compass-1.11447

Read it Magdalena. It's all there, truth revealed, because it's not going to matter soon anyway. Imagine how ugly things are outside of a safe, christian culture zone. Human monkeys truly only care just about who is the WINNER, the big man with all the big coconuts. They don't care for truth because they literally do not understand the concept. Watch them in the RNC and DNC conferences just act along for the scripted lines, and take it all as normal.

youtube.com/watch?v=BUG_USh1OFM

These are beasts made in the shape of man.

Only modern ideologies require blind worship, because you have to accept artificial and arbitrary constructs that have no inherent truth in them. Traditional societies are characterized by worship in the face of total truth. In such a context, worship ceases to be compulsory and becomes "free" in a real sense. This is why communist governments have to rely on despotic means to maintain themselves, because they are trying to enforce something that is unnatural and artificial. Everytime people are given free reign over their own will, they begin to revert back to traditional ways. The only way modernism can prevent the natural instincts of individuals to return to tradition is constant monitoring and control.

That said, people still need guidance because while we all have a natural predisposition for the ways of tradition, exact knowledge of traditional truths is still something that cannot simply be attained spontaneously (and not by the majority in the first place). Hence, the role of revelation and faith. The latter only exists due to the fact the majority of human beings are not suited to understand the naked truth of divine realities. This creates the illusion of compulsory worship so despised among undomursticurted snowmnfags (even though the ideologies of non-domestication of snowmen are infinitely more compulsory, to wit, the necessity of constant propaganda and brainwashing), where people are called to bow down to something they can only understand in an approximate manner. But because this "something" is none other then absolute truth, even this approximation has an illuminating effect in the mind and heart of the worshiper. This is not to say religion institutions cannot become corrupted, as they certainly are today. I believe much of your hatred for religion stems from your perception of what those religious institutions have become, not what they were originally.
Harry
31 May 2013 #137
Harry chose to hold one to different standards.

In Poland only believers of one religion are trying to force their beliefs down the throats of everybody. That would be the Catholic faith.

And you decide if they meet your bench mark ie you appointed yourself judge.

I see that you are still lying: the bench-mark is not mine, the bench-mark is that set down by your lord and saviour, Jesus Christ. His teachings, and you, despite being a Catholic, failing to observe his teaching about not telling lies. But thank you once again for demonstrating that it's a a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ.
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #138
the bench-mark is not mine, the bench-mark is that set down by your lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.

How arrogant!
You and you alone know the ultimate truth, you and you alone can decide the true meaning of the lords words.

His teachings, and you, despite being a Catholic

Really, I'm a Catholic that is news to me man you are on a roll.

In Poland only believers of one religion are trying to force their beliefs down the throats of everybody.

As pointed out above several times the proposed changes to Sunday trading are not just about religion, the OP stated as much. You have decided it's about religion and nothing else.
Harry
31 May 2013 #139
You and you alone know the ultimate truth, you and you alone can decide the true meaning of the lords words.

Matthew chapter 19, verses 16 to 19
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Jesus is the one who says that you must not lie Barney. I really don't care whether you lie or not (I just point out your lies and usually laugh at them).

Really, I'm a Catholic that is news to me

Gone through the procedure of leaving the church, have you?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
31 May 2013 #140
You made a sectarian comment that's it Harry

Well Barney I think it is a bit too extreme to expect the doves of tolerance and freedom here to do as they preach. They would like to wipe out Christianity form the face of the Earth. The only reason they do not admit it openly is tactical and to fool unsuspected people.

Being Godless do not make them better as they ideology is their religion in the name of which they would torture and kill people given a chance as history teaches us.

In Poland only believers of one religion are trying to force their beliefs down the throats of everybody

They would be democracy Harry. Would you by any chance advocating anti-Democratic practices here?
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #141
Matthew chapter 19, verses 16 to 19

Seriously Harry?

Man you really are on a different planet

Well Barney I think it is a bit too extreme to expect the doves of tolerance and freedom here to do as they preach.

That is about right, Could you imagine someone making such a statement about another race, nationality or religion it would be rightly condemned.

That is the classic definition of racism (in this case religious bigotry) setting a standard then criticising a group or individual because they don't meet that standard.

Gone through the procedure of leaving the church, have you?

Its officious people like you that enable genocide.
Harry
31 May 2013 #142
Seriously Harry?

Yes Barney, those are seriously believed to be the words of Jesus. His standards, his bench-marks. His followers are supposed to follow his teachings: a lot of them do not. Which is a bit hypcritical, given that they want Sunday trading to be banned because they claim Sunday as the 'Lord's day'.

Its officious people like you that enable genocide.

I see from your latest insult that you really are trying to dig your way out of the hole you've put yourself in by digging all the way to Australia. Good luck with that.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
31 May 2013 #143
Imagine how ugly things are outside of a safe, christian culture zone.

As I said, I have lived in India, well outside the Christian culture zone, and I have seen no ugliness beyond what I can also see within that zone. I repeat once again that humans have a deep need for spirituality and spontaneously seek ways to approach god, or enlightenment, or higher truth, or whatever you wish to call it, and I am no different. The only people I see who do not pursue this goal at all are people who are either brainwashed by one of the ruling ideologies, or are born psychopaths / sociopaths (this is a disorder that no religion or faith can cure). In its current incarnation, Christianity has largely become no more than an ideology, with the faithful expected to blindly follow certain precepts; try asking your local parish priest one or two more difficult theological questions, and you will get a dismissive answer, if any! I would tend to agree that any faith practiced by a person with a probing, intelligent mind might bring them closer to ultimate truth or god or any other mystical experience you may wish to name; but thoughtless repetition of ritual paired with an inflexible attitude to human weaknesses and quirks only serves to create robotic worshippers of graven images or (as in Islam) of words in a book. What I have said about Christianity I could repeat about any of the major world religions. As mass movements, they are no more than very powerful ideologies, though you might find spiritual truth in most of them. But they are all human approximations of something which is way above any religion. I have no idea whether a higher truth or a mystical union with the universe (or whatever) actually exist or are possible.

I believe much of your hatred for religion stems from your perception of what those religious institutions have become, not what they were originally.

Now where did I say that I hate religion? I am actually quite interested in religions from a philosophical and psychological point of view, and I find most of them absolutely fascinating. I do see their spiritual potential for the right person; but I also see how they dull the inner perception of most people, who are content to swallow whatever is presented to them without a single thought of their own. In a typical crowded Sunday church, how many people do you think actually have any sort of a religious experience? Most of them are bored stiff and are just waiting for the whole thing to be over so they can go home for Sunday dinner. But they keep coming because that's the done thing. What would the priest say? What would the neighbours say? Religion gives them form without substance.
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #144
Yes Barney, those are seriously believed to be the words of Jesus.

Yes seriously, you quoted the Bible as your excuse or explanation for interpreting the word of Jesus. That Book is full of stuff anyone can make fit anything and is the point of your Bigotry. You chose your own interpretation and applied it to people you knew would fall short that is bigotry. If you apply the same standard to everyone everyone is equal, no one meets your standards but you didn't do that you chose to apply your standard to Catholics only.

I see from your latest insult

Its not an insult Harry, you said I was a Catholic I told you I wasn't yet you are trying to invoke some obscure reference to prove that I am indeed a Catholic. That is exactly the kind of officious mindset that enables humans to destroy other humans.

Wiki and the Bible are not great rocks to build a logical argument.

Which is a bit hypcritical, given that they want Sunday trading to be banned because they claim Sunday as the 'Lord's day'.

And again Harry not everyone who wishes to reform the Sunday trading laws want to do so for religious reasons. It's a bit bigoted to suggest they do simply because you believe them to be Catholic and you believe that that is what all Catholics want.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
31 May 2013 #145
If you have lived in India, then you must have turned a blind eye to the persecution of Christians. India is one of the most offending religious rights violators along with Pakistan and other Muslim coiuntries, not to mention North Korea.

Unless you do not regard such persecution including murder, arson and other violent attacks as manifestations of 'ugliness'.
Harry
31 May 2013 #146
you quoted the Bible as your excuse or explanation for interpreting the word of Jesus.

Interpreting? The meaning of the phrase 'do not bear false witness' is pretty much crystal clear; it requires no 'interpreting'.

That Book is full of stuff anyone can make fit anything

This is not just 'stuff': it is one of the very basic teachings of Jesus.

You chose your own interpretation

And there you go lying again. I interpreted nothing: I pointed out the crystal clear teaching of Jesus.
There really is very little point in discussing things with you if all you are going to do is lie.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
31 May 2013 #147
And here all along I had thought the passage about satan quoting the bible was just a nice parable. It turns out it is actually

a reality.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
31 May 2013 #148
Calling someone Satan is about as childish as it gets, particularly when it is you that spent a Church holiday posting hate-filled bile on PolishForums when most of us were out having fun.

Such professions are special cases, delph, I think you understand that.

I had a think about this, and these are some of the professions that had to work yesterday -

Medical workers (including clerical staff)
Those involved with food/drink
Zookeepers
Transport workers (bus/train drivers, lorry drivers, etc)
Those working in the many "Jarmark" that you can find throughout Poland
Leisure attractions
Security guards
Those working with vulnerable children - e.g. in orphanages
Construction workers (saw some working)
Those on call (for instance, IT workers)
Those working in small shops (I noticed yesterday that many Zabka shops were open fairly long hours, and they most certainly weren't family members)

Outsourced service jobs (I have a friend that works with the UK and has UK, not Polish holidays)

And many, many more. Can someone please give me just one credible reason why supermarket workers are to be singled out as somehow being more important than the rest of these people?
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 May 2013 #149
Interpreting?

Yes Interpreting, your phrase was......

I suppose it is a bit too extreme to expect Catholics to follow the teachings of Christ

You are now claiming that there is no interpretation of any passage in the Bible or reconciling conflicting passages in the bible (which also involves interpretation) in order for you to make such a judgment? That is truly dishonest.

You set yourself up as Judge and condemned people just like any common racist, anti semite or intolerant bigot

And many, many more. Can someone please give me just one credible reason why supermarket workers are to be singled out as somehow being more important than the rest of these people?

Not more important simply because all cannot benefit doesn't mean that none can
Harry
31 May 2013 #150
Do forgive me for ignoring your off-topic insults and lies and instead focusing on the topic of this thread.
Nobody benefits from a ban on Sunday trading. A lot of people lose money they cannot afford to lose, a lot of people lose their jobs and a lot more people are inconvenienced. Nobody benefits because nobody is forced to work on Sundays.


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