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Shops in Poland to be closed on Sunday?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467
28 May 2013  #1
In a rare sign of supra-party solidarity, a proposal to ban Sunday shopping enjoys the backing of PO, PiS, SLD, PSL and Solidary Poland MPs.

Agruments in favour include:
--Keeping holy the Lord's Day
--A day for home and family
--Cashiers and shop assistants also need Sunday off
--The ban is backied by the trade unions
--Shops are closed on Sunday in Germany, Austria and elsewhere
Arguments against include:
--Some people are busy all week and can shop only on Sunday
--Poland cannot afford to lose sales during a crisis.
Where do you stand on this?

To the Sejm came a draft of amendment to the Labour Code, which provides for a prohibition on Sunday trading in large establishments. From the last two days exist great social debate: Shops should be open or closed?

The public is divided. On the one hand, employed in shopping centers often work seven days a week for several hours a day and free Sunday they certainly would accept with joy. On the other, many people work a week late into the evening and Sunday was often the only day when you can be alone to go shopping.

wiadomosci24.pl/artykul/handel_w_niedziele_sklepy_powinny_byc_zamkniete_czy_otwarte_piszcie_271769.html

and various TV news bulletins
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #2
Arguments against include:

What about salaries? Plenty of people, especially students and others that cannot work during the week (for instance, housewives) rely on weekend jobs.

--Cashiers and shop assistants also need Sunday off

Many of them don't need Sunday off. In fact, quite the opposite - they need Sunday. I'm sure you go to supermarkets on Sundays : plenty of young people work in them.

--Keeping holy the Lord's Day

Poland is officially a secular country.

--A day for home and family

No-one is forced to work on Sunday.

--The ban is backied by the trade unions

Who would like to ban working full stop, while receiving full salaries.

--Shops are closed on Sunday in Germany, Austria and elsewhere

And these countries are richer than Poland. They have social welfare nets to catch people - Poland doesn't. A student who receives a social scholarship may very well depend on her weekend job to pay for food and transport, particularly in the cities.

--Some people are busy all week and can shop only on Sunday

Indeed. I know many self employed people who work on Saturdays too.

--Poland cannot afford to lose sales during a crisis.

Even more so. When Poland is wealthy like Germany, then Poland can be like Germany.

Polonius, as a man of the Church, who do you think should feed those who rely on Sunday working to pay the bills? I see many young people working at weekends - who is going to replace their wages?

Incidentally, why should supermarkets be closed when police officers, firemen, university lecturers, doctors, nurses, drivers, ticket inspectors, security guards etc all work on Sunday?
Harry
28 May 2013  #3
-Keeping holy the Lord's Day

Still cramming your religious views down other people's throats then.

Cashiers and shop assistants also need Sunday off

Nope, they need the extra cash they are legally required to get for working on Sundays.

--The ban is backied by the trade unions

Got a source for that? The individual members of the unions are very much in favour of working on Sundays (they need the money).

--Shops are closed on Sunday in Germany, Austria and elsewhere

Strange how you overlook the anti-Jewish origins of banning Sunday trading but hold up those states as models.
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #4
Nope, they need the extra cash they are legally required to get for working on Sundays.

And this is the big thing - Poland doesn't have student loans, grants, etc to cover this. Nor does it have any decent amount of unemployment benefits available, so people need this work.

Another one - what about people that work in restaurants? Why aren't they allowed Sunday off, too?
Lenka 2 | 1,105
28 May 2013  #5
Hm, I won't be crying if they close shops on Sunday however I think it's not a good idea. It creates work places and doesn't really harm anyone.
Harry
28 May 2013  #6
Another one - what about people that work in restaurants? Why aren't they allowed Sunday off, too?

There are many walks of life where people are expected to work Sundays, barmen, teachers, taxi drivers, doctors, police, journalists. Should they all be forced not to work on Sunday even if they want to?
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #7
It creates work places

This is the vital thing : it creates employment. A country with 14% unemployment really can't go around legislating to increase that.

There are many walks of life where people are expected to work Sundays, barmen, teachers, taxi drivers, doctors, police, journalists. Should they all be forced not to work on Sunday even if they want to?

It does seem rather hypocritical to stop people working in supermarkets for religious/family reasons while denying many others the right to not work.

The craziest thing I've heard about this whole story is that "people won't lose money because the supermarket is shut on Sunday"....errr.
Harry
28 May 2013  #8
A country with 14% unemployment really can't go around legislating to increase that.

Well, we could just have a tax on people who want to observe Sunday as 'the Lord's day'. A flat-rate tax collected at the door of the church and then redistributed to everybody in Poland in order to compensate them for the potential income lost because some people think that Sunday should be a special day. That way people who don't care about what day is 'special' don't lose out and the people who do want it to be special can compensate those who lose out.
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #9
What does Polonius think?

Would he pay extra taxes to support those who lost out financially?
Paulina 9 | 1,451
28 May 2013  #10
Where do you stand on this?

I'm not sure, I guess people who work in those places should be asked about this, since there are "two sides of the coin", as this article states:

wiadomosci24.pl/artykul/handel_w_niedziele_sklepy_powinny_byc_zamkniete_czy_otwarte_piszcie_271769.html?sesja_gratka=0511e120b98c4576409259be0c1c5af5
Fragment Translation:

The society is divided on the issue. On one side, people working in shopping malls often work a dozen hours or so a day 7 days a week and for sure would receive a free Sunday with joy. On the other side, many people work during the week until late in the evening and Sunday was often the only day when one could go shopping.

No-one is forced to work on Sunday.

What are you talking about, delph? If they tell you to work on Sunday, you work on Sunday, you have no other choice if you want to keep the job.

Strange how you overlook the anti-Jewish origins of banning Sunday trading but hold up those states as models.

What are you talking about, Harry? For most Christians Sunday is "Lord's Day". On this day you aren't supposed to work. It is even reflected in the Polish name of the day: "niedziela":

The Czech, Polish, Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Ukrainian and Belarusian words for Sunday ("nedÄ›le," "niedziela," "nedelja," "недеља", "неділя" and "нядзеля" respectively) can be translated as "without acts (no work)."

From:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday#Sunday_and_Sabbath
Harry
28 May 2013  #11
What does Polonius think?

An excellent question. I'd much like to hear his thoughts on why he wishes to deny other people the basic human right that he himself has clearly made significant use of, i.e. the right to practise their profession on days of their choosing. If he is free to go research stories or write them up on Sundays (a right he clearly uses, as his posts here show), why does he want other people denied the right to choose whether to work on a day he deems 'special' (but not special enough for him to not work on it when he wants to)?
Ironside 47 | 9,585
28 May 2013  #12
I think that shops and all businesses should be closed on Sunday.
Harry
28 May 2013  #13
Never worked on Sunday yourself?
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #14
What are you talking about, delph? If they tell you to work on Sunday, you work on Sunday, you have no other choice if you want to keep the job.

But you can work elsewhere if you don't like it. The same freedom to work reflects in not having to work there, too. For instance - I know at least one person in my work works there (and not in a better paying job elsewhere) because she doesn't have to work weekends.

I think he's referring to why Germany/Austria enacted those laws to begin with.

Very strange actually - if Polonius believes that Sunday should be kept special, why is he in front of the computer on those days? Perhaps he would like to explain this to us?

Ironside - why only shops and businesses? What about taxi drivers? University lecturers? Bus drivers?

If people want Sunday to be kept special, then why on earth aren't they demanding the shut down of all but absolutely essential services?
Paulina 9 | 1,451
28 May 2013  #15
But you can work elsewhere if you don't like it.

lol
Where, delph? Cashiers in shopping malls work there not because they "like it", but because they need to eat and to eat you need money. People usually end up there because they couldn't find work elsewhere.

The same freedom to work reflects in not having to work there, too.

Sure, everybody's free to be jobless, homeless and hungry lol

I think he's referring to why Germany/Austria enacted those laws to begin with.

And why did they enact those laws?
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #16
Where, delph? Cashiers in shopping malls work there not because they "like it", but because they need to eat and to eat you need money. People usually end up there because they couldn't find work elsewhere.

I dunno, is working in a supermarket really that bad? I used to work in one - I don't remember it being that terrible. The bar job I once had was far, far worse, or the awful summer I spent suffering in a fast food restaurant from hell with the worst staff and customers. Sure, it can be hard work, but it's not that terrible.

Sure, everybody's free to be jobless, homeless and hungry lol

Going hungry is very possibly what might happen if they do this to some people, especially students.

And why did they enact those laws?

You'd have to ask Harry, but he mentions it originating with anti-Jewish sentiment.
Harry
28 May 2013  #17
Cashiers in shopping malls work there not because they "like it", but because they need to eat and to eat you need money.

So they are the people who are most in need of the extra pay they get for working Sundays.
Lenka 2 | 1,105
28 May 2013  #18
I can't understand why ppl are so concerned with shops being open on Sunday. So many jobs require ppl to work on Sunday and noone complains. So why shop assistants? I worked on Sunday and I can't remember any trauma connected with that expirience.
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #19
I don't understand the hypocrisy - why is it unacceptable for them, but not for others?

Someone cynical might suggest that influential restaurant / cinema owners might be putting pressure on some people...
Paulina 9 | 1,451
28 May 2013  #20
I dunno, is working in a supermarket really that bad?

Delph, where did I write whether working in a supermarket was bad or not?

Going hungry is very possibly what might happen if they do this to some people, especially students.

I doubt that in case of students, tbh, they have families that support them and I doubt working on weekends only would make such a difference (to starve or not to starve).

You'd have to ask Harry

I did, but he didn't answer.

So they are the people who are most in need of the extra pay they get for working Sundays.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I honestly don't know. I'd have to ask someone working there. Did you?

I can't understand why ppl are so concerned with shops being open on Sunday. So many jobs require ppl to work on Sunday and noone complains. So why shop assistants?

Maybe it's because of supermarkets forcing people to work 7 days a week or sth (there was that case of Biedronka, I don't remember what was that all about anymore). They probably picked Sunday because it's traditionally considered a non-working day.

I worked on Sunday and I can't remember any trauma connected with that expirience

But I guess you had some other day free of work?
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
28 May 2013  #21
Are the expats still trying to tell people in Poland how they should be living their lives?

Poland is officially a secular country.

Poland is not officially a secular country. When was this stated? It has been known as a Catholic country for a long time. Even many people who do not live in Poland, when they meet a Polish person [let's say, in Britain], they assume that he or she is Catholic. When you ask why? ' Well because Poland is a Catholic country isn't it?' This tends to be the reply that you get. It would be correct as well.
Harry
28 May 2013  #22
Maybe it's because of supermarkets forcing people to work 7 days a week or sth (there was that case of Biedronka, I don't remember what was that all about anymore).

No company can force an employee to work 7 days a week and any company that tried would soon find itself losing a labour court case.

Did you?

Yes. And I also asked HR people from companies that work Sundays: more than a few have lottery systems for allocating Sunday hours due to more staff wanting the hours than there being hours to work.
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #23
Delph, where did I write whether working in a supermarket was bad or not?

Ah, I misread your comments, I read the "no other choice" = being bad.

I doubt that in case of students, tbh, they have families that support them and I doubt working on weekends only would make such a difference (to starve or not to starve).

It very well could do - I'm only going by the university here, but the social scholarship just about covers rent here. That weekend job would give them (let's say) 160zl a week - more than enough for transport and food.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I honestly don't know. I'd have to ask someone working there. Did you?

Some people very might possibly be, especially in some of the worse supermarkets.

Maybe it's because of supermarkets forcing people to work 7 days a week or sth (there was that case of Biedronka, I don't remember what was that all about anymore). They probably picked Sunday because it's traditionally considered a non-working day.

I don't think it's even legal to make people work 7 days a week unless they're on umowa zlecenie?

But I guess you had some other day free of work?

In my case, I used to get two weekdays off - I worked Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Poland is not officially a secular country. When was this stated? It has been known as a Catholic country for a long time. Even many people who do not live in Poland, when they meet a Polish person [let's say, in Britain], they assume that he or she is Catholic. When you ask why? ' Well because Poland is a Catholic country isn't it?' This tends to be the reply that you get. It would be correct as well.

Oh dear WP...

We, the Polish Nation - all citizens of the Republic,

Both those who believe in God as the source of truth, justice, good and beauty,

As well as those not sharing such faith but respecting those universal values as arising from other sources,

Equal in rights and obligations towards the common good - Poland,

It is not a Catholic country, as clearly stated in the Constitution. In fact, the utter absence of Catholicism from the Constitution should give you a very big hint as to what the country is.
Lenka 2 | 1,105
28 May 2013  #24
Maybe it's because of supermarkets forcing people to work 7 days a week or sth (there was that case of Biedronka, I don't remember what was that all about anymore). They probably picked Sunday because it's traditionally considered a non-working day.

In that case they acted against Polish labour law anyway.

But I guess you had some other day free of work?

In supermarkets they have days off as well.

Poland is not officially a secular country. When was this stated?

In our constitution
Harry
28 May 2013  #25
WielkiPolak: Poland is not officially a secular country. When was this stated?
In our constitution

I think we can call that one nil Lenka.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
28 May 2013  #26
Wha? When did they do this nonsense? Poland was christened and now they are calling it secular in the constitution. This is not multiculty, mix and match, multicultarlism is our biggest strength, do what you want America. This is Poland!
Lenka 2 | 1,105
28 May 2013  #27
Wha? When did they do this nonsense?

This was written in our constitution for over 15 years
Harry
28 May 2013  #28
This is Poland!

No, where we are is Poland: you are in London. Please stop telling us how our country should be when you can't even be bothered to live here.
delphiandomine 84 | 17,703
28 May 2013  #29
Wha? When did they do this nonsense? Poland was christened and now they are calling it secular in the constitution. This is not multiculty, mix and match, multicultarlism is our biggest strength, do what you want America. This is Poland!

Erm...you are English, and you live in England.

This Constitution was agreed for by the representatives of the people. It is the highest authority in the land, one that binds the people of Poland and the people living in Poland. We are duty bound to respect it, not to abuse it on internet forums or treat it like a disposable document that isn't worth anything. It is...

Obliged to bequeath to future generations all that is valuable from our over one thousand years' heritage,

And I - as well as many people - do not appreciate someone calling it "nonsense".
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
29 May 2013  #30
This was written in our constitution for over 15 years

So it was not long after communism ended then. During communism, they prayed [jak trwoga to do Boga], but once the threat was gone, It seems they forgot what was most important and declared Poland a secular country.

Erm...you are English, and you live in England

So if you live in a country then you must be a native? Is that your logic?

No, where we are is Poland: you are in London. Please stop telling us how our country should be when you can't even be bothered to live here.

So if more Polish people moved in to the UK and eventually the constitution turned it in to a Catholic country, would it not bother you [and be honest, please]?


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