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Russia threatens Poland over monument


jon357 63 | 14,076
18 Sep 2015  #1
Personally I favour leaving them and looking after them, however if a town really wants to move one, so be it. Their choice.

Russia has threatened Poland with "most serious consequences" for pulling down a monument to a Soviet World War II general.

The removal of the memorial to General Ivan Chernyakhovsky began on September 17 in the northern town of Pieniezno, where the general died of wounds in 1945.

uatoday.tv/society/rfe-rl-russia-warns-poland-after-wwii-monument-pulled-down-496324.html
Ironside 47 | 9,538
18 Sep 2015  #2
It is done and dusted, should have been done a long time ago.
OP jon357 63 | 14,076
18 Sep 2015  #3
Not done and dusted for Russia, it seems...
Ironside 47 | 9,538
18 Sep 2015  #4
What they gonna do? Stop export of apples from Poland? Oh, too late they have done it months ago. They can kiss their own butts.
Polson 5 | 1,771
18 Sep 2015  #5
You'll call me a Putinist but it seems to me that this story is a piece of Ukraine propaganda. How come you read Ukrainian news websites, Jon? (just curious, not judging)

I just checked Polish news websites, and couldn't find anything refering to "threats" and "most serious consequences" from Russia.
What could they do anyway, seriously?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,531
18 Sep 2015  #6
I just checked Polish news websites, and couldn't find anything refering to "threats" and "most serious consequences" from Russia.

news.yahoo/russia-threatens-poland-over-dismantling-soviet-monument-111047719.html

What could they do anyway, seriously?

Russia? Easy. They could simply make sure that no-one visits Katyń.

I'd bet good money on Russia doing exactly that if Poland keeps demolishing monuments without agreeing it first with Russia.

What's particularly annoying the Russians is the way that the Poles go about it - they're literally just demolishing monuments in some cases, or dumping them in storage (like this one). The proper way would be to hold some sort of handover ceremony with all the typical Russian pomp, as Russia would still feel important (image is everything there...) and the Poles could try and keep a straight face during it.
OP jon357 63 | 14,076
18 Sep 2015  #7
You'll call me a Putinist but it seems to me that this story is a piece of Ukraine propaganda. How come you read Ukrainian news websites, Jon? (just curious, not judging)

It's on all the other news sites too, I just chose that almost at random.

And yes, they could make trouble as they have threatened. Visas, trade, a whole host of things.
Polson 5 | 1,771
18 Sep 2015  #8
If AP and Yahoo says it... And still, no idea what the "threats" and "most serious consequences" would be.

They could simply make sure that no-one visits Katyń.

We'll see.

they're literally just demolishing monuments in some cases, or dumping them in storage (like this one).

I agree. I think I read something like that in a Polish article. Russia suggested that Poland would just 'return' the monuments they don't want to keep. I think it's fair.

Visas, trade, a whole host of things.

For a monument? Let's be serious ;) It's not worth it.
Crow 136 | 7,369
18 Sep 2015  #9
Polish-Russian relationship reminds me of children`s play. Then both cry or uncontrollable smile
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
18 Sep 2015  #10
without agreeing it first with Russia

I read recently (sorry don't recall where) that the Piniężno folks had for years suggested moving the memorial to a Russian war cemetery in Braniewo but the answer was always NYET, so they finally got fed up adn dismantled the monument. I wonder if Russians would appreciated a statue to a Nazi war criminal on Russian soil.
Ironside 47 | 9,538
18 Sep 2015  #11
Russia? Easy. They could simply make sure that no-one visits Katyń.

Doing that they would break international agreement. If government in Poland would hit back at Russia its possible in few areas. So, I think Russia should watch out not too push to hard.

Poland may not like it but Poland acts according to agreement from 1994.

What's particularly annoying the Russians is the way that the Poles go about it.

They should melt them and before that p..h on it! He was murdering Polish heroes from AK (Home Army) that lying soviet thug.

Polish-Russian relationship reminds me of children`s play. T

Cause you know knowing Crow. Russia is not needed in miedzymorze.
mafketis 19 | 6,849
18 Sep 2015  #12
Many people make a fundamental mistake about Russia (I made it for many, many years and was suprised to realize how wrong I'd been).

They assume that Russians disliked the USSR and were glad to see it fall. Nothing could be further from the truth. The USSR and the shortages and repression suited them just fine. That's one reason there's never been any demand for a public accounting of communist crimes in Russia - they don't care.

And that's why Putin is so popular - he's saved the feckless Russian masses from capitalism and restored a Soviet system that (sort of) guarantees security in exchange for not making a fuss about anything the government does. It didn't help that the privatization process in Russia was fouled fromt he start by US financial criminals but the result was that Russians liked and like the CCCP.

The defining achievement of the USSR was WWII and Russians cannot imagine why the world doesn't worship them for this. They get completely unhinged and think the only explanation for not worshipping the Red Army is that people are nazis. The chances of them ever understanding why other countries didn't like the Soviet system are approximately zero.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,531
18 Sep 2015  #13
Doing that they would break international agreement. If government in Poland would hit back at Russia its possible in few areas. So, I think Russia should watch out not too push to hard.

It is possible, and I think Russia really does have an overinflated sense of self importance. Poland could just delay (massively) exports from the EU at Terespol and the other crossing into Kaliningrad and Russia would be crying. With such cheap oil and gas prices at the minute, Russia couldn't even threaten to cut off the gas because they desperately need the hard currency.

Poland may not like it but Poland acts according to agreement from 1994.

Russia is claiming that only Russia is respecting it. I wouldn't believe them in the slightest, but can you find a copy of the agreement somewhere?

Yes, the Russian inflexibility with monuments is somewhat notorious. A honourable relocation would make a lot of sense, but they seem hell-bent on keeping monuments exactly where they are.
Crow 136 | 7,369
18 Sep 2015  #14
Russia is not needed in miedzymorze.

Russians knows that they aren`t miedzymorze. They are different system. They would be satisfied that between them and western Europe exist miedzymorze. So, let`s not provoke them without reason. If we know that something upsets them, we should found way to talk to them and nicely explain, at the same time preserving our dignity.
OP jon357 63 | 14,076
18 Sep 2015  #15
For a monument? Let's be serious ;) It's not worth it.

You think that, I think that; these are people who send girls to Siberian labour camps for taking their tops off in church, who assassinate journalists, ban gay parades and who have sitting politicians who have seriously suggested blowing nuclear waste over the Lithuanian border.

As someone once said, nothing is true, everything is possible.
Polson 5 | 1,771
18 Sep 2015  #16
for taking their tops off in church

That and singing blasphemous songs in a sacred place (church as you said).

who assassinate journalists

Many people could have done that kind of stuff. There's no evidence that the government was behind these assassinations.

ban gay parades

I've seen stuff from Gay Pride parades that I really wouldn't want kids to see, honestly. Plus, Russia has its values, we shouldn't meddle into that kind of things. Unless they're killing gays, this is not our business. And do gays need parades? Well I guess that's another issue anyway ;)

sitting politicians who have seriously suggested blowing nuclear waste over the Lithuanian border.

I think I know who you're talking about. But from what I saw he's not taken seriously even by Russians ;)

Still, I'm pretty sure Russia wouldn't do anything. Especially if Poland doesn't destroy all these monuments and returns them to Russia.
Respect and diplomacy, that would be cool.
Crow 136 | 7,369
18 Sep 2015  #17
i would rather investigate which Polish politician ordered destruction of monument, right in this moment, when Duda announced intention for Intermarium and needs understanding of all major players for that. Who is behind that politician? Maybe he wants to disrupt Duda`s action.
nothanks - | 640
18 Sep 2015  #18
The defining achievement of the USSR was WWII and Russians cannot imagine why the world doesn't worship them for this. They get completely unhinged and think the only explanation for not worshipping the Red Army is that people are nazis.

Because the West is too busy shoving D-Day propaganda down our throats

D-Day: the most over-rated Military mission of All Time?
OP jon357 63 | 14,076
18 Sep 2015  #19
That and singing blasphemous songs in a sacred place (church as you said).

In the free world you'd be cautioned at best - what's the state got to do with various groups' sacred places, anyway? Not sent to a Siberian Labour Camp.

who assassinate journalists
Many people could have done that kind of stuff. There's no evidence that the government was behind these assassinations

And no 'evidence' that they're behind the invasion of Ukraine. They still pretend their soldiers are volunteer rebels.

I've seen stuff from Gay Pride parades that I really wouldn't want kids to see, honestly. Plus, Russia has its values,.

You've probably been attending some other sort of parade. Either that or just object to dancers if they are both men - I've attended dozens of such parades and most have kids in attendance with their parents. And if their 'values' include bigotry, this is not a good thing. And who's meddling?

Unless they're killing gays, this is not our business.

They do.

Respect and diplomacy, that would be cool.

With Russia, there are no grounds for Poland to respect them as a country and diplomacy where Russia is concerned only happens on their terms.

And yes, they are a risk when they start making threats.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,531
18 Sep 2015  #20
D-Day: the most over-rated Military mission of All Time?

It's funny how much loathing that Putin-supporters have for the EU and for the West in general.

Many people could have done that kind of stuff. There's no evidence that the government was behind these assassinations.

The thing that links them all is absolutely no attempt to investigate them. Russia is the master of the "no evidence" assassination, after all.
nothanks - | 640
18 Sep 2015  #21
It's funny how much loathing that Putin-supporters have for the EU and for the West in general.

West: "D-Day liberated Europe! What an unimaginable sacrifice made by thousands [LOL] of men"

Reality: Nazis were already retreating to Berlin after fighting in battles totaling over 1 Million men on the Eastern Front
pweeg3
18 Sep 2015  #22
According to the mayor the statue will be given back to the Russians

thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/221584,Russia-outraged-over-monument-removal-in-Poland
OP jon357 63 | 14,076
18 Sep 2015  #23
Indeed, and it's all about pride. Now if it was melted down for scrap (and that wouldn't be unjustified) they'd teally have grounds to complain.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
18 Sep 2015  #24
I'd bet good money on Russia doing exactly that if Poland keeps demolishing monuments without agreeing it first with Russia.

Yeah because asking Russia is going to make a difference. They're really going to agree.

The Russians don't need to have it there. The Polish population of the town did not want it. It's not like the town had a large Russian inhabitants that would visit the monument that meant a lot to them. The Russians only wanted it kept there to act like tools.
mafketis 19 | 6,849
18 Sep 2015  #25
D-Day: the most over-rated Military mission of All Time?

That's a bit much, but the Soviet Union did almost all the heavy lifting in beating the Nazis, had they not forced a bunch of countries into unwanted political and military alliances with them afterwards then maybe people would be more favorably disposed toward them.
Marsupial - | 888
19 Sep 2015  #26
Should be melted down, reshaped, coloured and made into a mini rainbow.
Polson 5 | 1,771
19 Sep 2015  #27
what's the state got to do with various groups' sacred places, anyway?

Many Russians are Orthodox Christians, who were shocked by such a gross behaviour in a sacred place.
I'm not saying those girls deserved to spend some time in labour camps. But I'm not Russian, and I don't live under Russian legislation. And I don't wander around naked in churches.

And no 'evidence' that they're behind the invasion of Ukraine. They still pretend their soldiers are volunteer rebels.

I won't pretend I'm shocked. That's what every country does/says when intervening without UN approval. But only Russia gets 'punished' (with sanctions) for doing this. When we (the 'free world') do it, it's alright.

They do.

Are you saying the Russian government kills gays now?

With Russia, there are no grounds for Poland to respect them as a country and diplomacy where Russia is concerned only happens on their terms.

What has Russia done to Poland lately? Apart from (supposedly) threatening it for moving (or destroying) monuments away?
Many Poles seem a little paranoid when it comes to Russia. A little more perspective would be nice. They would realise there is no reason to be that scared.

Russia is the master of the "no evidence" assassination, after all.

You're aware that Russia is filled with billionaires who (at least some of them) are ready to do anything to protect their own interests, aren't you?

Some of them could even support and arrange the assassination of a political opponent or journalist and make everyone accuse the government for it. That 'strategy' was commonly adopted by the CIA in Central and South America last century to destabilise unwanted governments.

That's a bit much, but the Soviet Union did almost all the heavy lifting in beating the Nazis, had they not forced a bunch of countries into unwanted political and military alliances with them afterwards then maybe people would be more favorably disposed toward them.

That and massive Western propaganda I'd say. Here's an interesting poll that was held in France in 1945, 1994, and 2004. The question was: 'In your opinion, what nation contributed the most to Nazi Germany's defeat in 1945?'. The results show that most respondents in 1945 thought it was the USSR that contributed the most. Strangely, that vision changed totally with time.

Poll results.

Source
fabiusmaximus.com/2014/07/29/french-ww2-contribution-defeat-nazi-70200/
Marsupial - | 888
19 Sep 2015  #28
No one needs these monuments russia was with germany and an invader. Same after the war. They should be removed asap.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
20 Sep 2015  #29
No one needs these monuments russia was with germany and an invader.

millions of Russian soldiers died while fighting in Poland,most of them common folk,who lived thousands miles away from Poland,had no fkin clue about politics and no connection to Stalin and his thugs ..

some respect to fallen soldiers.
dolnoslask
20 Sep 2015  #30
Funny how some people have a warped sense of history nowadays..... lest they forget and all that.

Why would I want a statue of a communist soviet general in my village.

All that happened was on one night soviets and ukkrains came to my fathers village, shot the policemen and teacher. put my dad and his family in a cattle truck and sent them to Siberia.

Half of my family died in the camps, some say Katyn never happened, but funny how my uncle died there.

No problem that Russia had made a pact with Germany to dissolve the Polish race, after all we were only untermench (Sorry my german is Shize)

So maybe a statue to a "SOVIET COMMUNIST" general might get up a few noses.

BUT that is history, that is the past, it is for all of us to make a better future, the vast majority of poles russians and germans are good people, who only want peace, not sure why the minority want to stir up bad history and do harm, it must be a human trait ,

If you look closely, PF has its mini stalins and hitlers , a bit of a microcosm.of humanity I guess

Anyway, my rant over, time for bed,

Don't forget we have an asteroid (or some other bit of space junk) event on the 28th some say it will finish us off,,

See u on the 30th... may be ?

sleep well


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