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Poland's President-Elect Duda leads in public trust - CBOS poll


jon357 74 | 21,999
2 Aug 2015 #61
Nope. To anyone who understands standard political economics. The PiSuarzy favour socialist economics with an unpleasantly nationalistic slant, one of the many reasons they were such a laughing stock when they were briefly in office.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Aug 2015 #62
laughing stock

Amongst the EU's crypto-marxists probably so.
InPolska 9 | 1,816
2 Aug 2015 #63
"Left" and "right" wings are often hard to figure out... As for Poland, I would say PO and PiS are both right wing. For me, left wing is SLD, Anna Grodzka.... As to TR, it's not so easy: left wing in societal matters but right wing in economics.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
2 Aug 2015 #64
Ideas are also important, and those do include the need to more equitably spread the wealth, make sure foreign banks and other corporations pay their fair share and prevent the emergence of oligarchy.

Which is a very left wing ideology, to be fair. Right wing wouldn't care about who owns what, they wouldn't care about who owns the banks and they certainly wouldn't care about the emergence of an elite business class.

But Polonius, there's also nothing wrong with PiS being very left wing economically. It's my view that the biggest failing of PiS was and is to keep denying what they are - Christian Socialists. Yet Christianity is very socialist at times, and there's nothing wrong with it at all. Socialism doesn't mean being liberal socially, after all. Communists were also quite conservative in certain areas - the obsession with pornography was far more than anything that ever came from the Church for instance.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Aug 2015 #65
Christianity is very socialist

Jesus prefered the poor to the elite business class or arrogant know-all eggheads (known back then as money changers and pharisees ). Card. Wyszyński, who had thoroughly studied Marxism, worker issues and the trade-union movement, favoured a Third Road between socialism and capitalism. In fact the Polish constitution refers to Poland's economy as a social market economy. How much of the "social" is actually being implemented is debatable. In Poland people avoid the socialist label because it was once associated with the PZPR and many think of it to this day in terms of totalitarianism.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
2 Aug 2015 #66
Jesus prefered the poor to the elite business class or arrogant know-all eggheads (known back then as money changers and pharisees ). Card. Wyszyński, who had thoroughly studied Marxism, worker issues and the trade-union movement, favoured a Third Road between socialism and capitalism.

Yes, it's very much my view that part of the problem of Polish communism was that it was just brutal unrefined Soviet-style communism instead of something more resembling Titoism. The problem with Yugoslavia was the role of the Party (mainly that managers were still chosen by the Party rather than by the workers) - but the theory of labour was essentially that workers are entirely responsible for the success or failure of the economy. It didn't work too well in practice, but the basic idea was very acceptable - workers had every right to share in profits and had the right to take part in decision making. The problem as I understand it is that the State would bail out failing businesses - so workers and managers alike had no reason to act responsibly.

I didn't know that Wyszynski held such views - do you know of anything that he wrote about the matter? I'm very much of the view that Catholicism and the Third Way in economics are very compatible - and there's nothing wrong with that.

In Poland people avoid the socialist label because it was once associated with the PZPR and many think of it to this day in terms of totalitarianism.

Yes, it's a huge problem. There's a massive difference between Soviet style rule and genuine socialism - there's absolutely no need to rule with a stick if everyone has responsibility for their own actions. Of course, it also means that the workers need to accept responsibility too - which in the case of the coal mines, we can see that they don't want it. But in general, I thoroughly support the idea of the workers being responsible for their own place of work. If they do well, of course profit-sharing makes sense. But they also need to accept that if they do badly, then times will be bad too.

This thread is wandering...
jon357 74 | 21,999
2 Aug 2015 #67
Yes, it's very much my view that part of the problem of Polish communism was that it was just brutal unrefined Soviet-style communism instead of something more resembling Titoism

Even more that it was full of opportunists. Some good and capable people like Barbara Blida, Aleksander Kwasniewski etc and some idealists like Ikonowicz. But mostly opportunists.

This means that when it all ended so much of the party clung on to what they could. And that compromised the genuine left opposition.

That gave Duda an easy ride - all SLD could put up was Ogorek, a joke candidate. SLD still have a lot of strength in certain areas and at a local level however the crushing effect that they have on the left of centre means that the genuine political left is fractured and in effect we now have two Conservative Parties and a kind of 'tribal voting'.

Something new will come and it will be hard to say who will hate it more, Duda's PiS or Platforma. Somewhere a Tspiras (or a Corbyn much as he worries me) will emerge. And that person will have the (genuine) public trust that Duda does not. Grodzka and Biedron would both of them make a great premier, however I can't see them getting the small town vote. Maybe in a generation when Grodza will be too old and Biedron ready for leadership.

I just don't believe this CBOS opinion poll. After all, what percentage of people have a landline now and how many are at home when they call?
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
3 Aug 2015 #68
Barbara Blida, Aleksander Kwasniewski etc and some idealists like Ikonowicz

All unsavoury types - Kwaśniewski like Miller and Blida were in the PZPR, a party which took its orders from Moscow and upheld the Katyń Lie. Ikonowicz was in the SLD and is a wild-eyed leftist crackpot (and boozer) if there ever was one. They're the kind of people that if you invited them over for dinner you'd do well to count your cutlery afterwards.
jon357 74 | 21,999
3 Aug 2015 #69
Kwaśniewski like Miller and Blida were in the PZPR,

All excellent people.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
3 Aug 2015 #70
As has been repeatedly noted -- yet another example of the skewed, distorted and lopsided jonian manner of evaluation: degeneration is normal, bad is good, black is white.... And one should add: there is no law against it!
jon357 74 | 21,999
3 Aug 2015 #71
Well there you go, attacking committed public servants for the choices they made when under an unusual regime, all from the comfort of your armchair. One reason why such people command a lot of respect even now, despite skewed CBOS polls about Duda (a non-entity if ever there was one) made by calling 200 old rural age pensioners at home in the daytime on their landlines.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
3 Aug 2015 #72
old age pensioners

Show some respect unlike the Tuskite slime attacking Poland's grandmothers (mohery). Edited..
Duda represents the real Poland of decent, hard-working, law-abiding and God-fearing families. God bless 'em!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
3 Aug 2015 #73
Duda represents the real Poland of decent, hard-working, law-abiding and God-fearing families.

Does that include taking 10 years holiday from work (and refusing to give up his position so that someone else can actually get his job?), being involved with the murky world of the SKOK and so on?
gumishu 13 | 6,140
3 Aug 2015 #74
and refusing to give up his position so that someone else can actually get his job?

some else does the job in question and gets paid for it - this is according to the chancellor of the university - not to mention that it's not unusual among members of the parliament from all political sides
Dougpol1 31 | 2,640
3 Aug 2015 #75
All excellent people.

As regards Miller - I sincerely hope you are on a wind-up Jon.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
3 Aug 2015 #76
murky world

Allegations!

Duda represents the real Poland

48 percent of Poles believe that president-elect Andrzej Duda will be a better president than outgoing Bronisław Komorowski, a CBOS poll showed ahead of his inauguration. Only 22 percent said Duda's presidency would be worse than that of his his predecessor.

The presidential election, Kukiz's surprise 20% support and now this survey clearly show that the Polish people have had it up to here with the unkept promises and scandals of the Platfusy. And good riddance!
jon357 74 | 21,999
3 Aug 2015 #77
I never believe these telephone polls. Most of the respondents are retired and rural - not a representative sample.

And Duda so far has said/done nothing. He's probably under instructions from his paymasters not to open his mouth so he can't put his foot in it like his PiS predecessor, Poland's worst president.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
4 Aug 2015 #78
Just wait until he plays straight into Russia's hands by starting a new feud with Germany.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
4 Aug 2015 #79
Poland's worst president

You mean Kwaśniewski, don't you. Smooth, glib ex-commies like Kwas and lefties like O'Bama have their propaganda machines well oiled and generously bankrolled so they can even get themselves re-elected, but (as Lincoln said) you can't fool all the people all the time.

You can rest assures that no monuments will ever be built nor any streets named after Kwaśniewski, neither will he be laid to rest in Wawel -- the pantheon of outstanding Poles.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
4 Aug 2015 #80
Who lies in Wawel is just an arbitrary decision made by a priest, nothing more.

As for Kwaśniewski, he was a very successful President. He worked with both wings of politics equally, didn't use the veto excessively and enjoyed decent approval ratings throughout his Presidency. Not bad going, and Duda would be wise to learn from him about how to behave as a President.
Dougpol1 31 | 2,640
4 Aug 2015 #81
Well there you go, attacking committed public servants for the choices they made when under an unusual regime, all from the comfort of your armchair.

Jon in palpable nonsense post shocker! Read all about it!

Better people than Miller and the rest said "No thanks, we don't believe the lie of, 'Join the Party - to make life better.' "

They were SCUM. Simples. I was there. Luckily I had an open plane ticket to London, just like the scum.

If you are talking about Miller et al - do you know this man personally? Have you met him?

As it happens, I have..... attended a public meeting in Jastrebia Zdroj, we had a little chat (quite amiable) plus had the pleasure of his company at a "do." Now let me see which British politician he reminds me of.......
jon357 74 | 21,999
4 Aug 2015 #82
They were SCUM. Simples.

Nope. The party leadership contained some very committed people. Never forget that they were functioning in a very different world.

Have you met him?

Yes, actually, and Belka too and quite a few others. Both of those mentioned are bog standard politicians, much like those at home who came up through the Trade Union Movement..
Dougpol1 31 | 2,640
4 Aug 2015 #83
You mean Kwaśniewski, don't you.

Actually Polonious - Kwasniewski did not appear as opportunistic as Miller - maybe he was more likeable....... and didn't dip his hand in the till....allegedly.

The Markets considered Kwawa as a solid president, titular position though it was, post-communist Poland really did not need another term of a bumbling if well intentioned Walesa. Kwawa engendered a serious air to proceedings.

Both of those mentioned are bog standard politicians, much like those at home who came up through the Trade Union Movement..

A very apt and accurate description Jon. I used to work many years ago in a big establishment on the south coast. Gormley, a 40 ish something Scargill, et al were all in the American Bar. You could have cut the atmosphere with a knife, though old Joe was good value:)

I don't think those two had a Swiss bank account though......
jon357 74 | 21,999
4 Aug 2015 #84
Kwasniewski did not appear as opportunistic as Miller - maybe he was more likeable.

I only met the wife but certainly admire him more than the people at a local level in that party - they aren't much better than the PiS mafia and in fact the two groups have a reputation for doing 'business' together.

The Markets considered Kwawa as a solid president, titular position though it was, post-communist Poland really did not need another term of a bumbling if well intentioned Walesa. Kwawa engendered a serious air to proceedings.

This I agree with.

Your mention of what UK politician certain Polish ones remind you of got me thinking. For Leszek Miller, hard to say - perhaps one of the Northern Labour Grandees, possibly Lord Prescott (who I rather admire). Ikonowicz is a bit of a Corbyn, Ogorek is Liz Kendall, Tusk is a bit of a Chris Leslie or perhaps a Baroness Warsi. LK was pure Geoffrey Dickens and Lepper was Screaming Laud Such, who if I remember died the same way. Komorowski is Gordon Brown - a committed technician of a politician; low on charisma.

Duda - very hard to say, but I'd suggest something between a Farage and that LibDem who was drinking too much.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
4 Aug 2015 #85
The Markets considered Kwawa as a solid president, titular position though it was, post-communist Poland really did not need another term of a bumbling if well intentioned Walesa. Kwawa engendered a serious air to proceedings.

Yes, he was absolutely a safe pair of hands. The fact that he managed to get rid of the old Stalinist constitution was a hell of an achievement, and from what I gather, he worked well with the AWS government of 1997-2001.

Even when you look back at election coverage of the 1995 election, you can see how Kwasniewski was looking straight at the camera, how he was absolutely in control and calm. Walesa on the other hand was a mess - going off on random tangents, not looking straight at the camera and obviously really struggling to define what he stood for. I don't think Walesa helped himself by talking about how he would accept being a dictator and meddling almost constantly with the work of the parliament.

Duda will be a disaster if he follows the Lech Kaczyński model of Presidency. He needs to step back, rise above party politics and be willing to work with anyone. He should look at Komorowski's explanation of signing the in vitro law - that he is not there to decide issues of conscience, but rather there to decide constitutional issues.
Dougpol1 31 | 2,640
4 Aug 2015 #86
Good stuff:)

I was thinking of Blair actually - busy enriching himself with his speeches, and wasn't there some gossip of Miller being no slouche when it came to dosh inducements?

It was rather silly when he was recuperating "at home" after that helicopter accident, and made a specific point of explaining to the interviewer how he lived humbly, where the house in question was his (rather old, but perfectly nice) family home.

He didn't want to be filmed in his rather more opulent villa, because times woz 'ard for the ordinary Pole back then. But of course he fooled nobody as it 'appens. And nobody would care, if the bloke wasn't on the make.

Screaming Lord Sutch made some absolutely cracking records in the 60s with Pagey et al. Lepper couldn't crack an egg properly.

that LibDem who was drinking too much.

Not nice to speak ill of the dead Jon, unless it were that prescription sunglass wearing murdering commie president of course:) Charles Kennedy was a sound human being - Duda is clearly a smarmy fake. Where's the similarity?
jon357 74 | 21,999
4 Aug 2015 #87
I quite liked him actually. What is it with politicians and drink. Some terrible stories about the Sejm hotel in Powisle.

So who would fit Duda? I was going to say Simon Danczuk because I can't abide the pair of them however Duda says nothing and Danczuk never shuts his gob. There's that liberal (not yet named except there are clues to his identity) whipping up the false child-abuse hysteria who's actually been falsely accused himself by that appalling Baker woman. Poetic justice. But Duda's too careful and too bland for that. Ziobro reminds me a bit of a Chris Grayling, a sanctimonious twat and a deficit of compassion. A bit of Hague there too, a youngish has been who married a convenient wife while in office.

But Duda I think is something of a Chuka Umunna, no obvious talent but a shrewd operator who appeared from nowhere. What do,you think?
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
18 Aug 2015 #88
poll

The latest political-preference poll conducted by TNS Polska shows 41% for PiS, 22% for PO and 11% for Kukiz. No other party would make it through if elections were held at present.

fakty.interia.pl/raporty/raport-wybory-parlamentarne-2015/sondaze/news-tns-polska-41-proc-dla-pis-22-proc-dla-po,nId,1870350
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
18 Aug 2015 #89
The latest political-preference poll conducted by TNS Polska shows 41% for PiS, 22% for PO and 11% for Kukiz. No other party would make it through if elections were held at present.

The polls at the minute are all over the place - look at this one.

According to a survey by the Estymator Institute commissioned by Newsweek Polska, the Civic Platform of Prime Minister Ewa Kopacz can count on a 28 per cent support. The survey shows a downward trend in support for an emerging movement launched by rock musician Paweł Kukiz, who won over 20 percent of the vote in the first round of the presidential election in May. The only other party likely to enter Parliament according to the polls is the Polish People's Party (PSL), a junior partner in the present ruling coalition, with six percent.

,New-polls-confirm-opposition%E2%80%99s-lead

Kukiz does seem to be falling away, and the inevitable loss of the JOW referendum will probably finish him off.
OP Polonius3 994 | 12,367
18 Aug 2015 #90
The polls at the minute

I forgot to add that the PSL and the United Left both got 4%. That's bad news for the leftists who, as a coaliton, need 8% to win seats.


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