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Poland And the Pope: Not Happening, Apparently


Nickidewbear 23 | 599
27 Jul 2016 #1
Pope Francis is set to arrive Wednesday in Poland, but the homeland of Saint Pope John Paul II - Francis' most popular modern-day predecessor -- is not rolling out the red carpet for the pontiff whose social agenda has alienated many in the conservative nation.

Gazeta went to add insult to injury:

The Pope, an inconvenient guest," was the headline on an article earlier this month in Gazeta Wyborcza, Poland's largest circulation newspaper.

Can anyone say, "Oj wej!"?

foxnews.com/world/2016/07/26/on-eve-pope-francis-visit-to-poland-country-refuses-red-carpet-treatment.html

They're not big fans of Papież Franciszek.
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Jul 2016 #2
They're not big fans of Papież Franciszek.

I know about 30 people living in Krakow, all of them except 2 stayed. Everyone I know left to avoid it :D

The Polish church doesn't really like Frankie, y'know, he's all about living within your means, being charitable, welcoming refugees. The Polish church don't like those ideas.

Factor in the cult of Pope Karol here and it's really a mess.

Also, the PiS govt predicted 35million people would come to Krakow, it's only something like 10% of that, so many hotel and restaurant owners are pretty ****** off that the've invested monye hopeing for a massive windfall but instead they're gotten nothing more than a normal summer crowd for Krakow.

Lots of factors really.

Personally I think Pope Frankie seems like a decent type of guy, but a priest is still a priest and I wouldn't cross the road to meet him
Ziemowit 14 | 4,394
27 Jul 2016 #3
Also, the PiS govt predicted 35 million people would come to Krakow,

Either PiS cannot count or you cannot read. Click the appropriate, but first decide if maths has issues with you or you have issues with PiS.
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Jul 2016 #4
I think it's great though that locals have shown their true feelings for the Church and have voted with their feet :)
Good times

Ah, I've noticed my typo now.
Well done Ziem! Eagled-eyed and having nothing better to do as per usual :D :D

you have issues with PiS

Yea, I hate them
Ziemowit 14 | 4,394
27 Jul 2016 #5
locals have shown their true feelings for the Church and have voted with their feet

Nevertheless, you avoid answering my question how you got the info that PiS predicted 35 million people visiting Poland on the occasion of Pope's arrival in Kraków...

Edit

Ah, I've noticed my typo now.

If it's a typo, it is a typo with what?
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Jul 2016 #6
you avoid answering my question

You didn't ask a question.

Either PiS cannot count or you cannot read. Click the appropriate, but first decide if maths has issues with you or you have issues with PiS.

There's no question in your 2 sentences. Did you make a typo and leave out a question mark? I made a typo too. We have so much in common.

You also said 'click the appropriate' I guess you were supposed to add a link but you didn't.

Are you drinking already at this hour of the morning? Jaysus, it's well for some, wish I could have that kind of life :D

If it's a typo, it is a typo with what?

35 million, should've been 3.5m

We all make mistakes Ziemlok. He without sin throw the first prostitute at a rock....or something like that :P :P
Ironside 51 | 11,338
27 Jul 2016 #7
The Polish church doesn't really like Frankie,

You mean people? Sure, he is a weird one and evidently doesn't understand many things, being from Latin America doesn't really properly you well to that function. Benedict should say as is proper. Frankie is not really a pope.

Also, the PiS govt predicted 35million

You lie, aren't you ashamed of yourself to lie like that? I guess not.

that locals have shown their true feelings for the Church

What do you know? Not much!

Believers shouldn't

Who are you to tell anyone what should or shouldn't do or what should think?

Ireland regained her independence through centuries of armed conflict culiminating in the War of Independence, whilst Poland got hers by a fluke, thanks to the First World War.

See, that is what I meant. Your passive aggressive behavior. Do you really want to compare Ireland to Poland? I don't want to humiliate you, so just let it go. In fact there is very few similarities - namely religion and an artistic flair.

couldn't give two hoots about anything you think, say or do.

You should disrespect people or mock them just because you think that you can to do it with impunity. One day someone might slap your stupid ***** ass about, just for being a boorish peasant.
Harry
27 Jul 2016 #8
The highest (rather unrealistic in my view) estimate in May was 2,5m

Really?

World Youth Day is a worldwide meeting with Pope Francis that takes place every three years.
Twenty-four high school students from Milwaukee will join the expected three million others from around the world for the event.

fox6now.com/2016/07/25/24-high-school-students-from-milwaukee-headed-to-poland-for-world-youth-day

A mix of prayer and reflection, cultural exchange as well as socialising and networking, WYD is one of the biggest Catholic youth conventions with about three million pilgrims are expected to attend this year's celebrations.

indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=29526

It is expected that three million plus young people will attend WYD Krakow.

catholicnews.ie/message-of-pope-francis-for-world-youth-day-2016/

Seventy one pilgrims from our diocese departed for Italy, Poland and Austria on Thursday 14 July to take part in World Youth Day with Pope Francis and around three million youth from around the world.

torontoparish.mn.catholic.org.au/?p=30679

They will spend some time celebrating our Catholic faith with Pope Francis and 3 million Catholic young people from all around the world.

camdendiocese.org/young-adult-ministry/world-youth-day-2016

The most recent WYD took place in Rio de Janeiro in 2013. That year, 3.7 million people attended World Youth Day. Estimates for this year are between 3 to 5 million, mostly between the ages of 16 and 35.

vsakstudent.si/world-youth-day
Better luck next time.

it's only something like 10% of that, so many hotel and restaurant owners are pretty ****** off that the've invested monye hopeing for a massive windfall but instead they're gotten nothing more than a normal summer crowd for Krakow.

Actually they've got a lot less. Pilgrims spend quite a lot less than regular tourists, but all the noise over WYD and the millions of people going to it have put off normal visitors and driven the inhabitants of the city out, as you noted.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,394
27 Jul 2016 #9
Better luck next time.

All your sources are not Polish, but foreign estimates (Canadian, Slovenian and so on). Neither of them is Polish. The 2,5m estimate I quoted is Polish and comes from your favorite Polish newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcza (gazeta.pl, 25 May 2016). Stick to Polish sources, Harry, and you will be well informed about events in Poland.

wyborcza.pl/1,75398,20112029,pielgrzymi-boja-sie-terrorystow-ubywa-chetnych-na-swiatowe.html
Matteozilliani
27 Jul 2016 #10
Oh, what a surprise that a Media vehicle like Gazeta Wyborcza (whose editor, Michnik, is one of those that believe that Islam is peaceful and islamic terrorists are actually "victims") is criticizing the Catholic Church.

Not even need to mention that the new co-owner of Gazeta Wyborcza, George Soros, is also one of the main promoters of multiculturalism.

They (Gazeta Wyborcza, Michnik, Kijowski, Natemat, etc) will not stop until turn Poland into another ******** where muslims behead priests and run trucks over kids.
Crow 160 | 11,052
19 Nov 2016 #11
Papież Franciszek

people, what is status of pan Papa Franciszek in the eyes of Poles?
Wulkan - | 3,243
19 Nov 2016 #12
@Crow

Worst pope ever
Crow 160 | 11,052
19 Nov 2016 #13
Eh? But pane brate how that could be?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,076
19 Nov 2016 #14
Every thousand years a mistake can be made, goes back to original sin, Adam and eve and all that.

The Devil has its way, no mortal pope is immune from the temptation of Satan
Crow 160 | 11,052
19 Nov 2016 #15
By the God, you says Pope Francis is an error? I thought that this Pope doing much to make Christians closer to each others. So he seamed nice to me. You think that he pretend? Well, what I know.

Or maybe Poles wants to have their national Church within Catholic Church and Pope oppose to it? I know some Poles dreamed of it. Is that is?
Marsupial - | 886
20 Nov 2016 #16
God is an error more likely Crow. Serious computation error. Pope francis is a second line error if the first above is not picked up. This compounds the error.
Crow 160 | 11,052
20 Nov 2016 #17
you are all crazy. Totally. Pope is nice and decent. He correcting some serious sh**. Its not possible that now you Poles don`t respect Pope. That I didn`t predict. By the good and great God, are we Slavs cursed people??
Marsupial - | 886
20 Nov 2016 #18
Well crow I am Australian not Polish and there is no such thing as god.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,076
20 Nov 2016 #19
and there is no such thing as god

Prove it.
Marsupial - | 886
21 Nov 2016 #20
No you need to prove it if you say such a thing exists not any other way around. I guess if you believe in fairyland your science is stuffed too. Even the topic is pointless there is more reality in most kids cartoons.
Crow 160 | 11,052
21 Nov 2016 #21
All in all, I see that there is misunderstanding between pan Pope and my venerable Polish sisters and brothers. So, I kindly ask, can anybody tell me in very very short whats going on. What is the problem?
Atch 17 | 4,114
21 Nov 2016 #22
Well, I'm not Polish Crow but I am a Catholic (Irish Catholic). As I see it, the Catholic church is somewhat different in each country, some are much more conservative than others. Polish Catholics, to me, appear very conservative and traditional in their views, more like the Catholics pre the Vatican II reforms of the 1960s. Their form of Catholicism emphasises sin, judgement and punishment and presents the Catholic faith as very much the only path to God. Priests are seen as authority figures whose word is to be absolutely accepted and not questioned. Whilst Pope Franics gives a message of tolerance, forgiveness, friendship and fellowship with every man and respect for other faiths. Also, and I'm afraid it has to be said, though I"ll get dog's abuse from some members for saying it, but Poles are not that fond of Jews and Francis doesn't share those views. He has Jewish friends and great respect for Judaism.

I suppose you could say, to sum it up, that Polish Catholicism is based around the angry God of the old Testament and the idea of the Church as very lofty and above the ordinary people, while the Catholicism of Francis is that of Jesus, the gentle shepherd of the New Testament, the pastor working and living in a simple, humble way alongside his brothers. Basically Franics is too liberal in his views for Polish tastes.
Crow 160 | 11,052
21 Nov 2016 #23
Interesting reply, Atch. Thank you. I will contemplate on this issue.

My respect to Ireland.
Wincig 2 | 229
21 Nov 2016 #24
@Atch

+2, on the spot, Atch! Plus of course Pope Francis is not a Pole..
Ziemowit 14 | 4,394
21 Nov 2016 #25
Polish Catholicism is based around the angry God of the old Testament

the Catholicism of Francis is that of Jesus, the gentle shepherd of the New Testament,

That, in my view, sums up the difference between Polish Catholicism and Pope Francis in a very apt way. It has to be noted that the RCC clergy of Poland and the older generation of believers (Polonius3 of the PF included, so to speak) particularly cherish the notion of "the angry God".

One recent example of the RCC clergy doubtful "practices" is a story told by the Rzeczpospolita daily. A child who instinctively leant forward and tried to pick up Holy Communion which slipped from the priest's hands and dropped onto the church floor when serving it was suddenly slapped in the face by the priest who was delivering it. As a result the child ran out of the church crying. The parents then decided to take the priest to the court which pleaded him guilty and ruled the priest should pay a 5,000 zloty fine for his deed.

In the next step, the defence made an appeal in which they claimed that while taking into account the priest's monthy income of about 2,500 zloty (whether after or before taxation was not disclosed, however) the fine was too high and should be annuled.

I'm not sure if the court would eventually consent to this 'poor priest' argument, had it been not brought to the court's attention that the priest recently bought a new car worth 120,000 zloty, so he could easily afford to pay the fine. Thus, the original sentence was upheld in the court of appeal.

The conclusions that come out of this story may be the following:
1. Priests in Poland still tend to have the mentality of "the angry God";
2. Priests in Poland tend to be too rich in terms of being "one of us";
3. Priests in Poland tend to commit sins of not telling the truth in courts!
Ironside 51 | 11,338
21 Nov 2016 #26
appear very conservative and traditional in their views, more like the Catholics pre the Vatican II reforms of the 1960s.

That is a good thing, eh?
---

Their form of Catholicism emphasises sin, judgement and punishment and presents the Catholic faith as very much the only path to God.

Not as only path but as a direct and safest route to God.
I'm always baffles by so called 'Catholics' like you. If you don't think that to be so, why even bother with being Catholic yourself. In fact you are what I term a cultural Catholic, to be a real Mc Coy you would have to stick to the Church dogmas.

----------------

Priests are seen as authority figures whose word is to be absolutely accepted and not questioned.

They're authority figures for some but the second part is just a figment of your overactive imagination.
------

but Poles are not that fond of Jews and Francis doesn't share those views.

That is BS right there. I doubt that anyone give a rat **** who is Francis friends with. Also if you would pay any attention to what a Pope do you would know that John Paul II was friend with some Jews and always preached or did some pro-Jewish stuff.

-----

Basically Franics is too liberal in his views for Polish tastes.

Basically Francis supposed to be the Pope, yet he is not acting like one. Also he has problem with communicating properly with the mass media and with the people. I suppose he means well but he is doing a poor **** job sending his massage.

Also liberalism is BS. Media fishing for his words to interpret them as some sublime liberal messages are deluded or just manipulative.
All so called liberal Cs should have been kicked out of the Church and that would have put the end to all that crap.
--------
Ironside 51 | 11,338
21 Nov 2016 #27
the angry God".

Some called it an awareness that there are consequences of your action and a responsible person is not just a rhetorical figure of speech.
---

That, in my view, sums up the difference between Polish Catholicism and Pope Francis in a very apt way.

In my not. The mains reasons is that he is from Latin America and have no clue about Europe. the Church problems in Europe - what problems?

Also he seems to think that empty gestures as not wearing a proper Pope's shoes or what not would work on Europeans in the same way as something like that would work on Bolivian peasants.

------

One recent example of the RCC clergy doubtful "practices" is a story told by the Rzeczpospolita daily.

Really? There is plenty of made up real stories in what supposed to pass for a newspapers nowadays. How sure you're that is a truth story?

--------

taking into account the priest's monthy income of about 2,500 zloty (whether after or before taxation was not disclosed, however) the fine was too high and should be annuled.

Sure thing it was too high, Given a fact that it wasn't any harm done, that lesson wasn't in money but in the fact that he was finned.

I wonder if there is more to the story because its hard for me to believe that in todays Poland any priests which is not over 60 would do that. How old was that child. Nowadays is hard to say - sometimes 14 years old is a young adult or 17 years is a child/ Its all depends on circumstances and on a bias of those talking.

---

I'm not sure if the court would eventually consent to this 'poor priest' argument, had it been not brought to the court's attention that the priest recently bought a new car worth 120,000 zloty, so he could easily afford to pay the fine

How do you know that? What more his money is none of your business nor is court's. Should you be paying for a speeding ticked depending on your income? Maybe, but so far the law in Poland doesn't reflect such a philosophy.

Maybe he has been saving to buy that car for years, maybe he got those money from his parents or maybe he inherited it.
That has nothing to do with the case.
---------

The conclusions that come out of this story may be the following:

1.Generalisation is a ***** and seldom reflect the truth of the matter.
2. Ziemko is one of those with anti-religion or RCC bias.
3. Question arises how much of what he says is just a pure lie.
johnny reb 37 | 7,707
21 Nov 2016 #28
@Atch+2, on the spot, Atch!

@Atch+3, spot on Atch !

the idea of the Church as very lofty and above the ordinary people,

This was done to "Control" the people along with the Churches superstitions.
It kept the parish obedient to the Church by instilling fear and guilt from the lofty "Authority".
Once the Churches "lofty authorities" decades of sins were exposed to the public the Parish woke up to the Churches "guilt trip" control.

(I only have two Fathers, my spiritual God the Father and my mortal blood Father so I will not call a priest "Father" for the "control factor" because he is not my Father and the Churches authority has sins just like I do, only worse on many occasions, so don't judge me with your scare tactics.)

This is why the Catholic Church attendance is down in Poland and around the world.
The new Pope stands for many things that dissolve the fears and guilt once used to control the people which is why he is being rejected by the older Polish who are traditionalists to their instilled beliefs.

I base my opinion on personal testimonies from former Catholics that have left the Catholic Church in the area where I live.
The Church I attend is a basic Bible Believing Church (non denominational) which is made up by about 35% recovering former Catholics.
I am one of them.
Before I get "dogs abuse" by other members let me say, "there is no perfect church, it is all about your PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord Almighty (He knows my heart and will judge me, not the loft authority of mortal men) and that is what counts."

I think the Pope is expressing that message.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,394
21 Nov 2016 #29
What more his money is none of your business nor is court's.

So the priest should pay his fine without ever claiming that he doesn't earn enough to pay it, stupid!

Should you be paying for a speeding ticked depending on your income?

The court didn't ask the priest how much he earned, it was the priest who said he didn't earn enough. Capisci or non capisci inglese, Iron Boy !?
Atch 17 | 4,114
21 Nov 2016 #30
In any case, priests take a vow of poverty and keeping an inheritance or saving for a car is in contradiction to that.

Anyway, the child, however old he was, did nothing wrong in retrieving the host. Didn't Duda do the same thing a few months ago and was widely praised for it! I know that there are still priests in Poland who refuse to give the congegration the communion host directly into their hands. In Ireland we've had that practise for well over thirty years at this stage.

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