PiS wants symmetry for minorites living in Poland

It's not so simple, Poles had a minority status in pre-WW2 Germany, got it taken away by so called "nazis"... so gradchildren of Germans of Polish origins, who had minority status decades ago, lost it and had it never recovered, are not a minority of any kind now. Poles in Germany are not really only post 89 or post 45 immigrants. So excuse me my anti-Europeism/chuvanism/homophobia/nationalism/fascism/anti-semitism and what's not but I do agree it's not normal that we provide all the goodies for German minority in Poland and Gerries don't even want to bring back what "nazis" stole.

Only flaw with that is that those parts they had minority status are now Polish.

You mean their minority status was limited to certain territories? Would you care to provide sources to back up your claim?


I don't like your attitude, after all American claims to western states is only 60 years older! Would newly translated Americans pack their rug-sacks and scram?

Some of you make it somehow fault of Poland! It was Germany who attacked Poland not other way around!


There must be more cases like that otherwise there wouldn't be Society aimed to help with problems created by that German institution!
Are you sure that a court is involved? I have a distant impression they are capable of taking action without court's involvement.


I don't know, educate himself, record it, hire somebody who understand Polish? It is not my problem!


You are talking abut one case, there is possible cases when parent can communicate better in his/her native language!


I don't care about Nazi thing, but about the fact that parents are forbidden to speak to their child in their own language! I would oppose such infringement of the natural human right regardless of nationality involved!!


some people think that French and surrender are interchangeable words and Germans have cool Nazi uniforms and want to take over their country with a pen! So what?

You take her statement as at its face value whereas it is only generalisation. Although given history Pole s have every right to be suspicious!

"During Weimar Republic, Poles had the judicial status as a national minority in Upper Silesia under the auspices of the League of Nations (likewise the German minority in the Polish Silesian Voivodeship)."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Germany

There are many more "creditable" sources.

It is a generalization, but what I meant is that there is history and small things are used to remind it , and PIS uses it. I don't know if this is the cause to justify the means.

thanks!
However it is not simple:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Poles_in_Germany

Because there is no significant number of ethnic Polish minorities left.
Slask most notably and other parts of Germany are Polish now.

I am sure you would like to give minority rights to immigrants in Poland, too. ;)

However according to the EU law such rights can be granted to ethnicities living more than 100 years(not sure about number could be more)in said EU country!

You are aware that those are Polish nowadays?


I have no idea what pre war demograpics and treaties have to do with the topic and what you asked me:



Link me to that significant number of ethnic Poles in Germany.

Because not all Poles in Germany are recent immigrants1


The EU is not about significant numbers, Germans in Poland ado not constitute significant number and yet they are being pampered.


A very good article about Poles in Germany:
ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/401/212schlott.html

Here is how you drag discussions along to cover your mistakes:


A few posts later:


Thats just one of your childish tactics.
There is simply no fruitful talk possible with you and so i will stop.

I understood, Marysienka, but the days of forced "Germanization" ended almost 100 years ago (or roughly 70 years, depending on how you look at it). Anyone who has visited modern day Germany and has lived there for a longer period of time will find it very hard to understand this generalization, that's for sure.


Remembering history is one thing, being stuck in the past and needlessly living in fear of your neighbors is another. Some Polish politicians and mass media drum up and exploit this fear for their own purposes: power and profit. I don't think that the Polish people - especially given their history - deserve that.


If preventing someone from using his native language is done with the intent to deny him his human rights, I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but this was definitely not the case here.

Yes.
Very well said

silly man those are clearly quotes from the internet source I provided link to! Those are not my words and I wasn't sure about that territorial limitation of minority rights thingee otherwise I wouldn't asked you about that. What is that you don#t understand?

I asked you that qestion and several posts latter I checked that and to your credit you were telling the truth!
However Poles in Germany base their claim to minority status on the EU law in this regard.


As For Germans in Poland - they were allowed to stay after WWII b it on them claiming to be ethnic Poles or at least locals not Germans. So in fact if not for good will of Poland they could be refused minority's right because progeny of ethic Poles or indigenous population of Opole living in Poland cannot become overnight ethnic Germans.


If such institution would be working basing their decision on courts orders it would#t be so bad. At least that suspicion towards parents would have same substance, however seems to me (from what /i remember) that that institution is making their own rules as it goes!

Preventing criminal to communique with his children unchecked is one thing, preventing a prevent who fell with his wife is yet another!


Who is being stuck in the past? I think that there mental barrier here! That is just rhetoric and most people know it! Majority of Polish politicians are just shady and that is result of events occurred in the past i.e. history!

Polish people are really traumatised by history and recently by so called transformation as well - it just big mess!

This is not a one-off deal nor an isolated episode but a problem of the Jugendamt (maybe it should be called the Hitlerjugendamt!?) discriminating Poles for years.

Check this out: youtube.com/watch?v=9ClRh5OlyDs

We had this topic before, didn't we? FWIW:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_the_United_States#Poland

Quote:
"The Hague Abduction Convention came into force between the United States and Poland on November 11, 1992. Poland has been cited in the compliance Reports for every year from 2000 to 2008 as either a "country of concern," having "enforcement problems" or "demonstrating patterns of noncompliance" with the Hague Abduction Convention"

That parts of the Polish media and certain politicians are pointing the finger at Germany is simply hypocritical.

The point the finger everywhere except at home where the problem lies.

Explanation :

Polish law provides remedies for a child that is removed from the territory of Poland without the consent of a parent with parental responsibility. It also provides that anyone acting as an accomplice in the act of removal should be punished. This part of the is compatible with the Hague. Polish Law does not provide a remedy for an abduction or illegal retention within the territory of Poland so it is possible to remove a child from one parent with parental authority by another parent with parental authority. In effect it is not possible to abduct or illegally retain your own child. The lack of law in this are is not compatible with the Hague.

You may or may not be able to see the problem now but I will explain by way of example.

Dad leaves the kids in England with Mum. There relationship is finished. Mum does not want to deprive the children of their father so unwittingly takes them to Poland to see dad. On the date of return Dad retains the kids. In Polish Law he has done nothing wrong. Under International Law he has illegally retained his children.

Sadly in most cases Mum knows nothing about International Law and asking a Polish lawyer what to do is not going to help her. 99.9% know so little they can only be described as dangerous. It is simply not taught. They are mostly limited to Polish law which is not going to help quickly. Under Polish law this could take well over two years to remedy.

What mum must do is start Hague proceedings from England, not Poland. She needs good, accurate advice as something as innocuous as giving her children a jacket could destroy her case. This is a minefield. There is a timetable set for Hague cases and they must be completed within one month. England fails to comply on this and averages 6 weeks. Poland on the other hand will take a minimum of 6 months.

Something the Polish media does not seem to grasp

The Hague convention is designed to help both children and adults. It is a tool to bring everybody involved back to a starting position prior to the abduction or retention. So in the example above the children should be returned to England and the mothers care. Once they are returned then the parents, if they are unable to settle their differences amicably, can use the most suitable court for the best interests of the children. It is the children whom are important, not politics, religion, nationality or parents.

While the Polish media and government ministers are spouting things like "Norway is trying to steal our blond blue eyed children" then it unlikely that the majority of the Polish public are ever going to understand this excellent law. And while Poland uses excuses like "the child does not speak English" when in fact the child is under one years old and does not speak, Poland is not only breaking the law, violating a childs rights, but looking pretty damned stupid in the eyes of the rest of Europe.

There is about 200 complains pending on the German institution, not only from Poland but from all over Europe!
#what about your standing on the issue?


yeah yeah Poland is the worst!
Do you even know what this thread is about?

I googled a bit and it seems that the courts decided the way they did because Wojciech Pomorski had been accused of domestic violence before his wife left him.


No matter which country - if the pending cases are justified in any way, then by all means let's solve them in the best interest of all people involved. When it comes to children, almost every nation is guilty of bending the law or not complying 100% with international law, I'm afraid.

Well, I guess not only parts of the Polish media and certain politicians are pointing the finger at the Jugendamt:


Also, I've googled a little and I've found a thread at a forum for Poles living in Germany. One Polish woman is asking for an advice and, to be honest, for me it's rather surreal and a bit scarry o_O

Here's the link: mypolacy.de/forum/topic/jugendamt,7231

I'll try to translate:


However, as far as Kaczyński is concerned, I think he's a populist demagouge and his proposition is simply amoral and not fair to the German and Lithuanian minorities.

Paulina, that is probably the worst example you could've picked. Home schooling is almost always illegal in Germany and the Romeikes thought they could break the law by not sending their kids to school. In the end they fled the country and asked for "asylum" in the US. It's a bad joke that an American judge dared to interfere with the internal affairs of another country. This one was discussed on PF as well, by the way.

Just one example: foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511825,00.html


Always convenient to mention the Nazi past of Germany. That way they don't have to worry too much about their own skeletons in the closet. Very popular instrument in politics as the Greek crisis shows.

OK then what about the story of Dan who attended a private school? And this rather inhuman treatment of both children and parents - not letting the mother to visit the kid as often as she and the boy wanted, not telling her where he is?

Besides, there are other examples. Here are notes from people thanking the society that was already mentioned in this thread for advice and legal help when they had problems with the Jugendamt: dyskryminacja-berlin.de/nasze-cele-sukcesy.html


"dared to interfere with the internal affairs of another country" ;) You sound like a Chinese communist complaining about a democratic government giving an asylum to a political refugee :P Of course it's not the same and I don't know much about American immigration law but if homeschooling is legal in the US and that family decided to live there then why the judge shouldn't give them the opportunity to do so?


Apparently not only parts of the Polish media and certain politicians do that, Americans do that too ;)
Of course bringing up the Nazis is sensationalism and over the top, but the example of this Polish woman asking for advice at mypolacy.de made me wonder what kind of atmosphere must be created by the Jugendamt if normal parents are so scared of it o_O

Another example from some Canadian guy: A German example:

I've also heard that in Norway or some other Scandinavian country there's a similar problem with a similar institution and that it's also being accused of making money on breaking up families.

Listen, I'm not anti-German nor anti-Norwegian LOL I just think that if all of this is true it's simply horrible and shouldn't take place.

How would you feel if your neighbour threatened you that he'll report you to such organisation because your kid is staying up late? I mean, is this normal in the West or what? o_O

The Romeikes could've simply emigrated to the US. Instead they were granted political asylum because a judge decided that he doesn't agree with the laws of a foreign country (read the article I linked in). You really think that's okay? Maybe a German judge should interfere with Polish affairs then?


That guy was an idiot, simple as that. He was probably upset because the kids were disturbing his sleep, and he threatened the mother.

I have no idea if they could or couldn't - as I said I don't know much about American immigration law.


So? He doesn't have a right to an opinion? I'm not sure what's the problem.


If human rights would be violated then yes, why not? Western countries and Poland give asylums to political refugees, for example. Are they interfering with affairs of other countries in this way?


Sure but in Poland, and I suspect in other countries too, parents wouldn't be trembling because of such a silly thing and such a petty man.

What if he invented something horrible about this family and told the Jugendamt lies out of spite? An institution that works as it should would probably give justice to the family but this Jugendamt? I don't know...

chronicle.com/forums/index.php?topic=63149.0%3Bwap2


All in all, it sounds scarry.

Also: cbsnews.com/stories/2000/06/01/world/main201844.shtml

It seems Americans had problems too, not only Poles:

Paulina, let me add a few more thoughts:

The Romeikes grew up in Germany and passed through the German school system. Before their first child was even before, they were fully aware of the fact that attending school is mandatory in Germany and that breaking the law has consequences (as it should have). When their children reached school age, the Romeikes - who are Christian fundamentalist - were not happy with the content of some books that were used in classes, even though everybody else had no problem with it. So they decided to break the law by not sending their kids to school; claiming that their "religious freedom" was violated when the German authorities insisted that the kids had to go back to school. The Romeikes were hiding behind religion, when in reality they simply did not agree with the school system and wanted a special treatment for them and their kids.

Religious freedom is guaranteed by the German constitution, and it is fully enforced. No doubt about that. When the Romeikes applied for political asylum in the US, claiming that their religious rights were violated in Germany, they simply lied. And with the help of an ultra-conservative lobbyist organization they were able to convince a judge in Florida. Why didn't they simply immigrate and chose to play this laughable blame game instead? Because they wouldn't have stood a chance to get a greencard or citizenship without it! So in essence, they used a lie and their children to get into the USA.


There were no human rights violated. Germany is not some war torn, crime ridden hellhole somewhere in the Third World. It is a modern democracy which guarantees human rights. Granting the Romeikes asylum was simply a joke by an activist judge who didn't know what he was talking about.


As always in life, there are two sides to a story. When you read some scary stuff on the Internet, you have to be aware who is writing it. A father might claim that his human rights are violated when he isn't allowed to talk to his children in Polish, but if you look closer it turns out that the guy was accused of domestic violence and the judges/ Jugendamt did what they had to do: protect the children. That's the law of the country - not only in Germany, but also in the US for example (how does it work in Poland, by the way?).

Talking about scary: if your neighbor here in the US claims that something is wrong with your children, he can call the cops who can - with the help of the so-called Child Protection Agency - take away your children and put them in foster care without you having any say in the matter. I know cases where children were taken away from families and - even though it turned out that the denunciation of the neighbor was a lie - had not been reunited with their families after over a year. "Hitlerjugendamt" ... American style?

In conclusion: don't always believe what you hear or read. There are of course cases where people are treated extremely unfair (in Germany and elsewhere), but a lot of times it's just blown out of proportion to serve the interest of some group or individual.

PS:
Canada seems to be a "hellhole", too ... ;)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_the_United_States#United_States_Abduction_Statistics

TheOther, I've already read about this particular case and I know what it's all about, you don't have to explain ;)


I'm not saying it's a war torn, crime ridden hellhole where human rights are violated on a daily basis :)))
OK, so I'll share some thoughts with you too :)
You know, I think that's the problem with such thinking: "I live in a Western/European/EU country and there's no way someone's human rights or simply rights could be violated! We are not some Third World country... or Russia." Yes? :) In my opinion such thinking is dangerous because it may make us blind to things happening around us. I've also had such blindfolds in the past even though I live in a country that is also often called a hellhole :) So I can imagine how a Westerner can be blinded and at peace, convinced that everything is OK, etc. ;)

Of course I know that there are always two sides of the story. Although, to be honest, even if the guy was accused of domestic violence I don't understand why wouldn't he be allowed to speak to his children in Polish? If his wife is German or of some other nationality he would be the only one to pass his Polish heritage to his children. I think it's everyone's basic human right. (Yes, I understand that a translator would have to be hired, but I still think it's not fair and should be resolved in a better way).


In Poland? I honestly doubt a foreign parent would be forbidden to speak his/hers language to a child. I've never heard of such a case.


The fact that something wrong is going on in USA doesn't make it right when something's wrong is happening in Germany.


TheOther, I've been using the internet for quite some time and believe you me when I say that I don't take anything at face value anymore ;)

I've also thought that this Jugendamt thing was blown out of proportion by right-wing politicians but I don't think in this way anymore. It looks like there is a genuine problem (or was, because maybe it was addressed already, I don't know).

Have you read the article at CBS News site? Apparently the problem was big enough for president Clinton to intervene.


It's not about any country being a hellhole ;) I know Germany isn't a hellhole, I've been there and most people were very nice to me and helpful :)

TheOther, are you German or of German origin? If you were a Pole Westerners would claim you're being defensive right now ;))) (I couldn't help myself, oh yeah ;D)

All I'm saying is: don't be so condescending to Poles, because, as you can see, they're not the only ones complaining about the Jugendamt.

And a quote from that example of the German scientist and her daughter. Someone else apparently living in Germany wrote this:


Quote from: chronicle.com/forums/index.php?topic=63149.35;wap2

What do you think about it? Judging by the whole of her comment she seems reasonable and balanced.

Well, I'm Australian with Polish and German ancestors, but that has nothing to do with my opinion here.

First and foremost, institutions like the Jugendamt or the American Child Protection Agency are there to protect children. I don't give a flying hoot whether parents feel discriminated against or their human rights violated as long as the kids are safe and the actions of the authorities involved are both justified and legal. In the case of Pomorski it was justified because of the domestic violence, in the case of the Romeikes it was justfied and legal because they knowingly broke the law. I believe that at least half of the complaints against the aforementioned institutions are either based on manipulated facts where one parent "forgets" to mention certain negative details, or they are simply blown out of proportion to serve someone's agenda. That doesn't mean that I back everything these institutions do or that I agree to state arbitrariness. If someone is really treated unfairly or his rights are violated, something needs to be done - no matter which country. But before we believe what some sources on the web claim, let's get all the facts first and then point the finger.


Who is defensive now... ;)


No, I meant what happens if there is suspected child abuse for example? Does Poland have something like the Jugendamt, and if yes what is its reputation?


What cora_b says, sounds accurate up to a certain extent. Although I'm sure that most Germans never had contact with the Jugendamt.

That would be only your onion you don't know whether or not their action are justified and legal. Evidently that institution need to be scrutinized. If they are blames and working just fine that scrutiny will not harm them if they are even one case where their failed to provide justices or harmed children, that is one case too many. Your defense of said institution is sad example that you would rather trust bureaucracy than people.What do you fail to understand?

Exactly, additionally in most of these cases the child has to suffer even more, while the parents go at each other.

I could turn that around: you believe everything an upset parent tells you? A father beats up his wife, the woman leaves with the kids, the father claims that the mother abducted the children and files a lawsuit. Now what?


None of us knows all the details to come to such a conclusion.