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PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland


polishinvestor 1 | 362
16 Jan 2016 #91
Liberarius, the UK US and Europe have undertaken in QE programs over the past few years to the tune of a few trillions to try to prop up the economy by keeping interest rates ultra low to allow people to borrow invest and expand, without fear of interest rates going up too soon in the future. Essentially the banks got to borrow very cheaply and were supposed to lend this money to those that needed/wanted to borrow. Of course much of this money got leveraged and invested in the financial markets and created bubbles in some areas. The problem faced now as interest rates have started to rise in the US is will those huge leveraged positions bring down the banks again. Since 2008 the too big too fail argument isnt as apparent today, but there will be a lot of pain in some areas of the financial community.

QE was probably the biggest transfer of assets from the taxpayers to the financial industry ever, but its easy to call it a failure now. But you just dont know what could have happened if QE didnt take place. Back when banks were failing everywhere and peoples savings were at risk, the governments had no choice but to bail them out and flood the system with money to try to improve confidence. Apart from giving every citizen a cheque for a thousand dollars, theres not much that could have been done. These days there are more safe guards in place and bigger walls separating investment banking and retail banking, so that area (peoples deposits) should avoid significant problems, but certain industries with highly leverage debt are going to see particular pain if the worst comes to the worst.
weeg
16 Jan 2016 #92
The plutiocrats who are already filthy rich can afford to shave their margin a bit and extend a helping hand to the hero of this story, the ordinary Pole.

You are so funny..

My sister in law runs a small website selling goods to Poland and exporting around Europe. Her reaction to the 20% (because its on turnover, so her income is 10%) tax is to move to Slovakia, as Harry predicted. Her employees will be protected from her exploitative bloodsucking by being sacked. Bang goes the already high taxes to the Polish State, never mind the 20% tax.

Rejoice as all web based companies in Poland will do the same, because they will have no choice.. If the government is sensible they will realise the futility of this tax for companies that can simply move away, taking their jobs and tax income to Slovakia.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
17 Jan 2016 #93
You are so funny..

You are not, generally serious stupidity is not funny.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
17 Jan 2016 #94
serious stupidity is not funny.

Whose stupidity? Are you suggesting that the posters' sister is stupid to move her business to Slowakia?

But wait - you're not here, so none of it affects you in the slightest. In fact - in a real economy, there is no way you should have the vote or any say in the matter whatsoever.

Now run along Yankee boy.
Borsukrates 5 | 131
17 Jan 2016 #95
The page only lists the new fees. How do I compare it to the old fees ?
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Jan 2016 #96
Look down towards point 7 - it shows some percentages that are 'up until' and 'after'.

(mods : I can't really provide a good translation because I'm not so great with financial terminology...)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
17 Jan 2016 #97
have no choice

Where there's a will there's a way. People said the Internet could not be controlled or censored, but China has succeeded in doing just that, meaning that it is feasible. If the poltical will existed, a good think-tank would come up with a way to deal with the tax problem and prevent evasion or cirucmvention. Possibly agreements wtih other countries also wanting to protect their sovereign right of taxation.

Too many horse-blinkered PFers seem hamstrung by what is and incapable of imagining what could or should be. That's what innovation is all about.
polishinvestor 1 | 362
17 Jan 2016 #98
China hasnt managed that but of course peddling falsities and propaganda is what dictatorships and communism is about.
Chinas growth has been artificially controlled by the rulers and now its blowing up in their face and will likely drag the rest of the global economy down with it.
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Jan 2016 #99
If the poltical will existed, a good think-tank would come up with a way to deal with the tax problem and prevent evasion or cirucmvention.

Why does there need to be political will? Do PiS not have the political talent to come up with a viable tax that won't immediately result in the destruction of small Polish businesses and the end of Polish e-commerce?

Possibly agreements wtih other countries also wanting to protect their sovereign right of taxation.

There's nothing in it for the Czech Republic or Slovakia, as both of them stand to gain massively from this law.
mafketis 34 | 12,450
17 Jan 2016 #100
People said the Internet could not be controlled or censored, but China has succeeded in doing just that

So your role models are communists... who'd of thunk it? (besides all the people that would of thunk it)

If the poltical will existed, a good think-tank would come up with a way to deal with the tax problem and prevent evasion or cirucmvention

So you're admitting that all PiS can do is tax and spend. Interesting. And people wonder why Poland was downgraded....

Too many horse-blinkered PFers seem hamstrung by what is and incapable of imagining what could or should be

Here's a big ole hint: The political language of keeping people in national boxes and taxing them as the government sees fit is dead, dead, dead in the 21st century.

For good or ill, the planet has moved past national capitlaism (ie Fordism - the economic system of the 20th century everywhere, even the USSR) into the age of liquid capital where money flows to places where it's welcome and can increase and leaves places where it isn't.To even begin to hope to change that you have to realize what you're dealing with but PiS (in the form of JK) is still fighting the economic battles of the 1970s with 1970s weapons. There's no way he can be successful.
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Jan 2016 #101
There's no way he can be successful.

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

The problem with PiS is that they are modelled very much on the typical Communist Party. Loyal people are rewarded regardless of their actual talents, and the Dear Leader Chairman Kaczyński more or less handpicks everyone in positions of power. They aren't getting chosen for being experts in their field, but rather their personal loyalty - even PiS supporters make it clear that he values loyalty most of all. So they've ended up with a lot of people that simply don't know what they're doing - hence the lobbyists found it remarkably easy to change the 'tax on big foreign shops' to 'tax everyone'.
pweeg3
17 Jan 2016 #102
A 40% rise on some of them?

People said the Internet could not be controlled or censored, but China has succeeded in doing just that, meaning that it is feasible.

P3, you just don't get what the EU is about and what the internet allows.

I can sell goods from the UK to Poland and there is nothing that Poland can do to stop me. I won't pay tax to Poland and I will have no contact or interaction with Poland authorities whatsoever. This new tax will put Polish companies at a disadvantage and help non-Polish companies sell to Poles.

If Poland simply increased VAT, then the income would be the same and it wouldn't penalise Polish companies. Except that Slovakia, UK, Luxembourg have a lower VAT rate and the customers in Poland would pay that rate to the Slovakia, UK or Luxembourgian government.

Luxembourg are used by Playpal, Amazon, Apple etc to pay 15% to Luxembourg instead of 23% to Poland.

a good think-tank would come up with a way to deal with the tax problem and prevent evasion or circumvention.

Not difficult, but economically a catastrophe and utterly unacceptable to all major parties in Poland - Leave the EU.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
17 Jan 2016 #103
what the EU is about

The EU as every empire or mega-corporation are about power, influence and profits. Their system will always favour the rich and powerful and only play lip-service to freedom and equality. The EU started by giving larger subsidies to the agriculture of strong, established food exporters than to the newly admitted CEE countries. Since the CEE did not get Mashall Plan aid, it should have been the opposite: larger susbisdies to CEE. Even now 10 years on, EU subsidies to Poland and other CEE lands are still probably smaller. I hope I'm wrong.
pweeg3
17 Jan 2016 #104
Yes you are completly wrong, Poland is getting twice the Marshal plan for the whole of Europe
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
17 Jan 2016 #105
getting twice the Marshal plan

Any proof? More than the farmers of France or Spain?
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Jan 2016 #106
Well, even if it's a percentage, it's still a 4% rise.

Remember the government controls PKO, so this is effectively a case of PiS taking money from the citizens.
pweeg
18 Jan 2016 #107
Any proof? More than the farmers of France or Spain?

The money isn't for farmers, it's the cohesion fund.

This is about the years 2014 to 2019

msp.gov.pl/en/polish-economy/economic-news/4015,dok.html
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Jan 2016 #108
moved from

Globalism, single market, level playing field, etc. are all nicely phrased ephemisms but the bottom line is that the bulk of the profits flow out of the country and only a bare minimum stays in Poland to allow the business to keep ticking over. The pudding is savoured abroad! Call it what you will, but the most apt term IMO is neo-colonial exploitation!
polishinvestor 1 | 362
20 Jan 2016 #109
Polonius3, a simple example. Look how Biedronka began in Poland. They started from the beginning, with low prices and goods of a reasonable standard. They destroyed local shopkeepers. Over time they built their reputation and lifted their prices. Ask the average Pole and he'll tell you Biedronka is Polish! Thats how theyve managed to engrave their way into Polish everyday life. The gap in the market could have been filled by anyone. Its always filled by the fastest most forward thinking entrepreneur and entrepreneurs are lacking in Poland. Often Poles dont want to take risks with money, although Id say they take risks in other walks of life, so its not a pure risk averse thing.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Jan 2016 #110
forward thinking entrepreneur and entrepreneurs

I agree, that's why a top priority for the govt should be the promotion of Polish entrepreneurship, design, brands, logos, etc., and Morawiecki has made statements to that effect.How abut a course in "How to set up a viable retail chain".

Dunno if the restrictive EU strait-jacket would allow no taxes for starting up Polish entreprenurs for a fixed period (1-2 years) and other incentives and preferential treatment.
polishinvestor 1 | 362
20 Jan 2016 #111
Often the problem is in your own backyard and reluctance of local council to help. Above all the Pole is looked down on and treated as untrustworthy by urzedniki. But of course a lot of the grants that the government has provided, courtesy of the EU, have been wasted as it wasnt properly policed by the urzedy
kpc21 1 | 763
20 Jan 2016 #112
Ask the average Pole and he'll tell you Biedronka is Polish!

I think some will certainly say so, but not most of them. I bet that even less than 15% may be so thinking.

They destroyed local shopkeepers.

You say they destroyed them. But they still exist and doesn't seem to feel so bad. In a centre of a big city - you will find at least a single local independent shop most likely within one or two blocks of streets around you. And if someone is threatening them, then not Biedronka, but rather Żabka. But Żabka exists only in bigger cities. I am from an almost 15-thousand town, and we don't have any Żabka at all. We have two Biedronkas, a few of Delikatesy Centrum (but this is a kind of shop with a bit more expensive products - and a bit higher quality), and that's all of the chain supermarkets. The rest is a town-wide chain of shops owned by a local and quite a lot of totally independent shops.

Look at Germany. You almost don't have there any foreign supermarket chains. Everything is German. But you don't find also any (or almost any) local independent shops.

Shops in Polish villages are almost all independent, owned by locals. In towns in a vast majority too, and it's not a problem to find them in cities. In Germany they, however, don't virtually exist.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
20 Jan 2016 #113
No Żabka outside of big towns? I have noticed that in Warsaw a lot (most?) of them are located outside of center..... Why Germany? Are there foreign hyper/supermarkets for instance in UK? I doubt it. Same goes for France, only French super/hypermarkets there. I suppose in the US too, only American stores ;). So, Germany is not any different ....
OP delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Jan 2016 #114
Are there foreign hyper/supermarkets for instance in UK? I doubt it.

Of course. Asda is owned by Walmart, which is the 2nd/3rd biggest retailer. Lidl and Aldi have been making huge inroads into the UK market, too. There's also quite a few chains that are foreign owned, and the biggest high street retailer Arcadia is controlled by a Brit that's resident in Monaco and pays nothing to the UK. And of course, IKEA.
jon357 71 | 21,002
20 Jan 2016 #115
Asda is owned by Walmart

And all the others except Waitrose and the Co-op are publicly traded and can be bought by shareholders anywhere - I think all the big 4 have substantial investment from other countries.

As long as shares are traded, the owners of those shares can be from anywhere - and only a very odd sort of person would want to prevent that.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
20 Jan 2016 #116
@Delph; for me (or in my language/culture) the words super + hypermarkets are only used for FOOD stores. Ikea for instance is not called super/hypermarket but is a ... furniture store. Since you mentioned Ikea, never again I want "furniture" from them. A komoda bought there (in Warsaw Marki store - so mod won't tell me I'm not talking about Poland ;)) some 18 months ago is already to be replaced so I have decided to buy something from a real (Polish) furniture store or having some furtniture made (someone told me it's not that expensive..). I have no idea where to go and as I have no time to really look around, I'll have to keep the Ikea komoda for some more time .... ;)

NOT to be OFF topic; if anyone can suggest a decent (not too expensive, of course ;)) furniture store in Warsaw, thanks in advance! I want to avoid BBR as well. Agata is a bit better but I would like something better because I don't want to buy new furniture every year or so. I know that Kler has good reputation but prices .... ;). There is Bozio but I don't like their furniture... Tough! Ikea is of to buy dishes, brooms, towels ...
polishinvestor 1 | 362
21 Jan 2016 #117
Private owned and run shops are pretty rare even in smaller town centres, maybe some Indian/Pakistani owned in the suburbs. You do get more in the villages particularly the tourist spots around the Peak District. But rents are way too high for the average person to afford a good spot. In any case there are so many waterdown supermarket or convience stores owned by the giants either directly or through franchise, making it hard for a one off shop to compete.

In Poland the smaller towns got hit the most as in came the Biedronka and took all the local business as often Biedronka was the only market in town, so naturally drew all the business thanks to choice and price. In these cases the biggest effects of money leaving the local economy are seen. Normally local shopkeepers would spend their small earnings in the own itself but Biedronka didnt and so other local businesses suffered as a result. Its one of the many reasons why the much smaller towns have been left behind and some are in worse condition than 20 years ago.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jan 2016 #118
only American stores

There is Germany's Aldi or Aldo's (or something like that) in America.
daim 5 | 24
21 Jan 2016 #119
Why is it a good thing to have independent convenience stores? Are people selling Prince Polo's really adding to the economy?

Poland has some of the best education in the world. I hope people here have higher aspirations than to run a grocery store!
polishinvestor 1 | 362
21 Jan 2016 #120
Why is it a good thing to have independent convenience stores? Are people selling Prince Polo's really adding to the economy?

From me it was an observation of what happened. Those lost jobs havent been filled which is why most Poles are offended when you mention the average wages is about 4500 brutto.

Poland has some of the best education in the world.

Baffled as why they all finish class by 12:30/2:30, a lot sooner than when I was a lad in the UK. From what I see from some of the kids here, a few more hours in school are desperately needed! And you cannot beat a good British private school btw.


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