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PiS to impose blanket retail tax in Poland


delphiandomine 85 | 17,652    
15 Jan 2016  #1
Despite all the rhetoric from PiS about only taxing large foreign owned supermarkets, the reality is becoming clear. PiS intend to apply a 2% tax to all retail businesses in Poland.

natemat.pl/168217,dlaczego-sklepy-internetowe-zaplaca-podatek-obrotowy-niezlomni-z-pis-ulegli-lobbingowi-wielkich-marketow

Within a few weeks, lobbyists have changed the bill and the tax for large-commerce has now become a tax for all shops: small, large and websites.

We can look forward to the destruction of the Polish online retailing sector as e-commerce companies move to the Czech Republic/Slovakia/Germany/Lithuania, while smaller shops will be devastated by having to add an extra 2% to their prices while online competitors based outside of Poland will be able to sell without the tax applied.

As we said all along, PiS will raise taxes and hurt the poorest in society that often are unable to access online shops due to a lack of internet connectivity. They will now be forced to pay 2% extra in small local shops, while those retailers will also suffer against Polish-owned but foreign-based online competition.

This law will also do nothing to 'protect' small shops, and instead guarantees that they will almost certainly lose considerable business to larger supermarkets. PaweĊ‚ that owns a small corner shop is not able to negotiate prices with suppliers, but Piotr that works for the large foreign supermarket as a buyer is certainly able to squeeze suppliers further. Price increases will therefore be lower in larger supermarkets, which will help to increase sales at the expense of the small Polish businessman.

Still...

Do you remember Andrzej Duda in the presidential campaign? He went to the shop and thundered: "Polish entrepreneurship should be protected and supported by the fact that the tax burden will be borne by the big supermarket chains, which today in relation to its turnover pay peanuts in taxes".

What Duda actually meant is that Polish business will be destroyed by PiS imposing extra taxes.
Roger5 1 | 1,463    
15 Jan 2016  #2
Price increases will therefore be lower in larger supermarkets, which will help to increase sales at the expense of the small Polish businessman.

I'm struggling to imagine how this analysis can be wrong. Perhaps a PiS fan can help me out.
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #3
We can look forward to the destruction of the Polish online retailing sector as e-commerce companies move to the Czech Republic/Slovakia/Germany/Lithuania, while smaller shops will be devastated by having to add an extra 2% to their prices while online competitors based outside of Poland will be able to sell without the tax applied.

This will mean that what a shop in Slovakia can sell for EUR 1,000 a Polish shop will need to charge the zloty equivalent of EUR 1,045.50, given that VAT in Slovakia is only 20% (and will soon fall to 19%) but in Poland it's 23% and now there will be a 2% shop tax slapped on top of that. Polish consumers who can (i.e. those who shop online and who live in places with good logistics links) will just buy from internet shops physically located in Slovakia; those too poor to have a computer or stuck in places where DHL etc don't bother with will get shafted, as will Polish shops. Also, instead of getting the zloty equivalent of the EUR 173 a Polish shop would pay in VAT on a EUR 1,000 (plus 19% of that shop's profit and the ZUS and PIT contributions for its employees), the Polish state will get sweet Fanny Adams, while the Slovakian exchequer will get a nice little bonus.

A policy that shafts the poor, drives Polish shops to the wall and results in the Polish state purse getting much less money in: yep, that's PISed-up economics at its finest!

Perhaps a PiS fan can help me out.

I fear that for this we will need not just a fan but a PISed-up VIP. Fortunately I understand that we have such a VIP and he's just now finishing off his warm-up routine.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
15 Jan 2016  #4
corner shop is not able to negotiate prices

You and your expat mates always seem freeze-framed in what is rather than what should be. A good government, and the PiS administration is precisely that, should change things for the better. If there's a problem, a way to solve it must be sought. If someone is shedding crocodile tears over the poor family-owned corner shop that cannot compete with the biggies, then one way would be to mandate equal prices. Suppliers and wholesalers could not charge different prices for a large supermarket chain and a corner shop. That way ordinary shoppers would pay the same and many would prefer to shop at nearby local shops rather than drivng or taking public transport to outlying shopping centres. The law can be used to favour the wealthy, this class or that clique, but the LAW can also serve the cause of JUSTICE. Law and Justice, that is!
Roger5 1 | 1,463    
15 Jan 2016  #5
I suppose we asked for it, but I wasn't expecting Stalinist economics.
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
15 Jan 2016  #6
one way would be to mandate equal prices. Suppliers and wholesalers could not charge different prices for a large supermarket chain and a corner shop

You're seriously proposing price controls? How on earth are you going to enforce that? Wouldn't it just encourage large buyers to source outside of Poland?

The problem with a lot of PiS supporters is that they don't understand how infrastructure works or how economies work.

but the LAW can also serve the cause of JUSTICE. Law and Justice, that is!

And Ponies for Everyone! Don't forget the Ponies!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
15 Jan 2016  #7
large buyers to source outside of Poland?

Your thinking is always about how to serve and protect the biggies and circumvent the law so the rich get richer nad f*ck the poor.

Everything can be regulated by law as needed. Where there's a will, there's a way.
In the narration of pro-captilist market freaks, the plutocrats always win out and the little guy gets shafted.
Sparks11 - | 335    
15 Jan 2016  #8
So, I think the answer to Roger5's original question is "No"
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #9
one way would be to mandate equal prices.

Sounds good to me: I'll be able to buy my products direct from the manufacturers/importers in the comparatively tiny quantities I need but for the same prices they charge supermarkets. Works well for me but I somehow doubt the shop-keepers of this country will feel the same way. I somehow doubt that the manufacturers/importers will like it either, as instead of the usual orders for several HGVs full of cat food, they'll have to fill an order from me for a few cans a week. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply gave up and shifted their operations outside of Poland and told their Polish customers that now all business would be done with their new company in Slovakia, meaning as well as the loss of sales in shops, PISed-up economics would drive wholesaling out of Poland!

The problem with a lot of PiS supporters is that they don't understand how infrastructure works or how economies work.

It's a throwback to the times they liked, the commie era, when the economy in Poland simply didn't work.
OP delphiandomine 85 | 17,652    
15 Jan 2016  #10
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply gave up and shifted their operations outside of Poland and told their Polish customers that now all business would be done with their new company in Slovakia, meaning as well as the loss of sales in shops, PISed-up economics would drive wholesaling out of Poland!

Who would bother selling directly to Poles if they were forced to charge the same prices to everyone? It's pretty obvious our neighbours would be over the moon at all the new warehouses created (and tax paid to them), while the Polish economy would immediately collapse as Polish suppliers would simply stop producing as it wouldn't make sense anymore. Almost every pure retail operation would shut down their Polish operations and move it all to CZ/SK/LT while knowing that the goods can be sent to Poland free of controls.

In fact, I seem to recall that one reason for the introduction of martial law was that producers did exactly that. Farmers were keeping considerable amounts of produce off the market because it simply didn't make any sense to sell at the price mandated by the State - they could barter their goods and get the real value, whereas the State was only offering some fictional amount that didn't cover the real costs of farming. One aspect of martial law that isn't often spoken about was the way that many industries became "military" and hence people were obliged to produce or face a court martial.
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #11
the Polish economy would immediately collapse

The more I read about the 'economic plans' of the PISed-up regime, the more I'm forced to conclude that that is the target of their masterplan; no doubt they will then blame a combination of wreckers and running dog EU imperialists for the fact that the Polish economy is now in a worse state than it was in the early 1980s.

Farmers were keeping considerable amounts of produce off the market because it simply didn't make any sense to sell at the price mandated by the State

Perhaps that is also all part of the PISed-up masterplan. You have to remember that in their minds (er, you know what I mean) the only thing wrong with martial law was that they were on the wrong side of it. Well, apart from the ones who were in the Party anyway; those ones just want to the good old days returning.
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
15 Jan 2016  #12
Your thinking is always about how to serve and protect the biggies and circumvent the law so the rich get richer nad f*ck the poor.

Somebody needs to be thinking about how to get around policies in order to not create horrible unintended consequences. What's the point of passing legislation that creates worse situations than the one the legislation was supposed to fix.

Think of as being like the devil's advocate - it's an entirely necessary part of the process and I suspect JK has no one like that around because he can't stand the thought of anyone disagreeing with him openly or pointing out any flaws in his plans. He has considerable political talent but is a terrible administrator because he only surrounds himself with yes-men.

in their minds (er, you know what I mean) the only thing wrong with martial law was that they were on the wrong side of it.

Well that would explain a lot.....
OP delphiandomine 85 | 17,652    
15 Jan 2016  #13
Somebody needs to be thinking about how to get around policies in order to not create horrible unintended consequences.

The thing with PiS is that they seem absolutely unwilling to even listen to any discussion on the matter. It's obvious that a 2% tax on online shops will cause both Polish and non-Polish retailers to move their base out of Poland while still selling on the Polish market. Courier companies will set up special deals so that transport from border areas is charged at the same price as if the package is sent from within Poland, and the end result will be the destruction of Poland-based e-retailers.
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #14
It's obvious that a 2% tax on online shops will cause both Polish and non-Polish retailers to move their base out of Poland while still selling on the Polish market.

Didn't TVP say that it's only obvious to capitalist wreckers and running dog EU imperialists?

Courier companies will set up special deals so that transport from border areas is charged at the same price as if the package is sent from within Poland, and the end result will be the destruction of Poland-based e-retailers.

I wonder if it's worth having a punt on any logistics companies that are listed on the WSE, they seem to be the only people (in Poland at least) who are going to do well out of PISed-up economics. Although the general downwards movement on the market might make keeping ones fund in foreign currency denominated accounts for a good while longer.
Ironside 47 | 9,499    
15 Jan 2016  #15
Wow I see our foreign loge of 'expert' on everything Polish congregated again. Today they are debating economical details and pro and contra of the new government plans. Those plans know to them because of the internet website - niezlazena.pl!

Those economical experts consist of a low case banker from a call center, a kindergarten teaching assistant, an English teacher and a proofreader. lol! Just kidding but for all we know there is not a single economist or a financial expert amongst them.

Accidently that website they found so credible have much more to offer, yet strongly that choose to ignore it. I wonder why?

Germans colonizers counterattacking. Who is behind the attack on Poland.
Pathetic excuses of Kijowski (KOD)
Petru should talk about credits as he converted currency himself and now he is criticizing.
Petru - politicks only for the rich.
Taharrush - Muslim sport where all women are a fair game already in Europe.

Roger5 1 | 1,463    
15 Jan 2016  #16
Which of those jobs is Polonius'?
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #17
there is not a single economist or a financial expert amongst them.

One of the things I find most amusing about the PISed-up is the way they insist anybody who wants to add two and two needs to be an expert.

Let me put it to you this way, IS, imagine that you live in Poland and you have the choice between paying 3,136.50zl for a particular TV from a Polish shop or paying the EUR equivalent 3,000zl for that exact same TV supplied by a shop in Slovakia: which are you going to buy? Now, which do you think everybody else is going to buy.

Congratulations: you now have economic analysis abilities which far exceed those of the PISed-up experts.
polishinvestor 1 | 362    
15 Jan 2016  #18
Price controls? Seems like communism to me. At best he is an idealist with zero understanding of how businesses operate.
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #19
an idealist with zero understanding of how businesses operate.

Sounds dangerously over-qualified to be a PISed-up senior figure in the Ministry of Economic Affairs when you put it that way.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
15 Jan 2016  #20
horrible unintended consequences

....horrible unintended consequences for the oligarchs and other bloodsukcers. Boo-hoo, sob, sob, poor oligarchs, poor bankers, poo nomenklaturists......
Our hearts should all pump purple pony p*ss for them!
jon357 64 | 14,382    
15 Jan 2016  #21
.horrible unintended consequences for

Horrible intended consequences for the Polish shoppers many of whom are already balancing a very tight budget.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
15 Jan 2016  #22
sell without the tax applied.

You can sell from Timbuctoo or even the moon but you still have to deliver the goods. Slap a delivery tax on all foreign e-outfits when they deliverr to clietns in Poland. That'sll fix their clock!

A good government are one that protect their coutnry's market first and foremost and taxes foreign interlopers out of existence!
OP delphiandomine 85 | 17,652    
15 Jan 2016  #23
....horrible unintended consequences for the oligarchs and other bloodsukcers. Boo-hoo, sob, sob, poor oligarchs, poor bankers, poo nomenklaturists......

I like the way that you immediately assume that anyone running an internet shop is immediately a bloodsucking oligarch. The reality is that most of them are small business people operating with wafer-thin margins. Still, says a lot about your hatred towards private business.

Weren't you supposed to be about encouraging Polish entrepreneurship, not against it?

Horrible intended consequences for the Polish shoppers many of whom are already balancing a very tight budget.

Indeed. Notice how none of the PiS supporters so far have admitted to the fact that this is just another tax rise?

Slap a delivery tax on all foreign e-outfits when they deliverr to clietns in Poland. That'sll fix their clock!

You cannot impose a tax on foreign retailers and not domestic ones. Next.

Well, you can, but you'll have to leave the EU and trade on unfavourable terms with the EU when you do.

A good government are one that protect their coutnry's market first and foremost and taxes foreign interlopers out of existence!

Given that PiS intend on destroying the Polish market and taxing Polish businesses, is that therefore an admission that PiS is a bad government?
mafketis 17 | 6,756    
15 Jan 2016  #24
Slap a delivery tax on all foreign e-outfits when they deliverr to clietns in Poland. That'sll fix their clock!

Pretty sure there's no way to do that in the EU and leaving the EU would cause major economic problems for the country as it's a net gainer from membership.
polishinvestor 1 | 362    
15 Jan 2016  #25
Without foreign investment Poland doesnt exist. Do you understand pension deficit is 250% of GDP. All those huge zus's over the years squandered. Thats what every government should be tackling. ZUS and pension deficit. If they want to do some taxing make the companies assign a larger portion of pay to pensions pot. Its a big step but less controversial than making banks energy companies and just about everyone pay for a coal mining industry that should be closed down.
OP delphiandomine 85 | 17,652    
15 Jan 2016  #26
Pretty sure there's no way to do that in the EU and leaving the EU would cause major economic problems for the country as it's a net gainer from membership.

Unlike the British, I can't imagine there would be much motivation to continue allowing Polish workers freedom of movement/labour in the EU. That means that there would be a huge influx of Poles back into Poland - into an economy that's already adjusted to live without them. Living standards would inevitably tumble.

Not to mention that any tax would likely find itself copied by the EU towards Poland. So Polonius would find that Polish exports are suddenly uncompetitive when compared to other non-EU exports to the EU, ensuring that the economy suffers further.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
15 Jan 2016  #27
not domestic one

Somone or something (courier, post, forwarding service) has to physically deliver the goods. In today's e-era there are ways to slap a tax on the goods the moment they enter Polish territory even if delivered by drone or pigeon post.

For a vigilant and thoroughly pro-Polish government nothing is impossible.
All the expat renegades are constantly thinkling up ways to circumvent the law and outfox the Polish state. And then they pretend to be Polish patriots. LOL: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jon357 64 | 14,382    
15 Jan 2016  #28
I wonder if the new PiS retail tax covers 1.49zl VIP lager from Biedronka...
Harry    
15 Jan 2016  #29
In today's e-era there are ways to slap a tax on the goods the moment they enter Polish territory even if delivered by drone or pigeon post.

Not legally there aren't, not of the goods are coming from an EU member state.
OP delphiandomine 85 | 17,652    
15 Jan 2016  #30
In today's e-era there are ways to slap a tax on the goods the moment they enter Polish territory even if delivered by drone or pigeon post.

There are ways, of course. But those ways are not legal under EU law and would almost certainly result in financial sanctions towards Poland to compensate EU businesses affected by the tax. Poland would end up losing considerably more than she gained from such a move. More to the point, to collect such a tax, you have to control the borders. That means a return to the bad old pre-2004 days when waiting 12+ hours on the border was common for truck drivers.

For a vigilant and thoroughly pro-Polish government nothing is impossible.

Nothing is impossible, but it certainly involves leaving the EU and seeing Polish goods taxed with an equal tax on import.

All the expat renegades are constantly thinkling up ways to circumvent the law and outfox the Polish state.

And you believe that Polish online retailers aren't immediately thinking about moving their distribution centres abroad?

Companies such as komputronik.pl will almost certainly dispatch from CZ and not PL.


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