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Poland's PIS go back to their old ways


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Aug 2015 #91
Duda, free market

Never forget: the constitution defines Poland's economy as a social market economy. That is not a cut-throat, run-away capitalist economy which serves only the financial elite and their wannabe flunkies.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Aug 2015 #92
I "like" the "social", everybody claims to be "social" and to be in the "center"...
Ultima Thule
9 Aug 2015 #93
@delphiandomine: obviously Duda is not a Polish Mises or Hayek. But please notice, that he has to reconcile many various groups of people. It is impossible to act only in the name of a narrow group. But as a free market supporter I think, that he at least will come up with some changes towards the free market. His meeting with Koliber youth organisation means something. He didn't meet the young leftists or young workers. He met young supporters of the free market.

If you say, that Duda cooperates with trade unions, so I tell you, that PO cooperates with them even more.

As I said: PO is a Trade Union of the clerks. It is not a party in the traditional sense.

PiS is also related with some establishment groups, but I would say 20 or 50 times less, than PO.

No party will give us 100% guarantee. Duda is not a president of my dreams. But comparing to Komorowski, Duda is giant a revolution.

So now it is better to wait till November/December/January, to see how Duda will cooperate with new government (which surely will be PiS) and then we can judge ...

I personaly support Janusz Korwin Mikke (MEP) and Grzegorz Braun (Polish patriot, film director).

About Duda I would say: among the blind the one-eyed is king.
jon357 67 | 16,655
9 Aug 2015 #94
obviously Duda us not a Polish Mises or Hayek

Very good too. The last thing Poland needs is that sort of economic focus. Now, Keynes is a different matter.

Though any focus on Duda is missing the point. His role has very little power.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Aug 2015 #95
The president is entitled to legislative initiative. If presidents haven't been making use of it all that much is another matter. But the potential exists. With a cooperative government this can work. With a hostile one it usually cannot.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
9 Aug 2015 #96
So if he's entitled to it, why has Duda said already that he won't introduce a bill to the Sejm regarding giving people 500zl for children (or whatever the number was?).

Backtracking already on his electoral promises, tut tut.

For what it's worth, all executive power should be stripped from the President. Then we simply wouldn't be having these debates.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Aug 2015 #97
nomeklatura family

Somehow you never mention that Michnik comes from something worse than a
nomenklatura family -- a family of political criminals inclduign a brother with blood on his hands who's a fugitive from justice hiding in Sweden. His father held a responsible posts in Stalin's Komintern and his mother tired to sovietise Polish chool chidlren. It doesn't get any worse than that and yet, nary a peep out of old Delph! You'll probably say: there's no collective repsosnbiltiy. So doesn't that apply to Duda?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
9 Aug 2015 #98
Somehow you never mention that Michnik comes from something worse than a nomenklatura family

Michnik never tries to claim that he's from a good Polish Catholic family, does he? Nor did his parents suddenly "find God" when the system changed, did they?

As for Duda, he's also a huge hypocrite. Claims to be a very devout Catholic, yet only has one child. How strange.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Aug 2015 #99
How strange

Not really. Maybe some affliciton. In cases of RH blood conflict parents can have only one nromal child. And you're the one saying what happens in the bedroom is nobody's business.

Michnik is a hypocrite because he hushes up his family's dirty secrets. As a public figure, leading opinion-moulder and now someone trying to play the role of an "elder statesman", the public has a right to know where he came from.

Besides, he is a far cry from representing Polish society as such. Mainly he surrounds himself with and promotes his ex-KOR-ite cronies -- a tiny minority.
jon357 67 | 16,655
10 Aug 2015 #100
In what way does Adam Michnik, one of Poland's most respected figures try to "hush up" anything? Especially since the issues you pretend he tried to "hush up" are very well known, in the public domain, and do not reflect badly on him in any way. If anything they reflect well on him as a former jailed dissident.

Whereas Duda, a man who has already broken election promises deserves further scrutiny.

By the way, if you really favour

a cooperative government

why are you so hostile to a political tendency that has the support of millions? And why would you support Duda and the other PiS flappers since they are the most aggressive, regressive and argumentative political grouping ever to emerge in post-1989 Poland? In what way do you think there's anything even slightly

cooperative

about Jaroslaw Kaczynski etc?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Aug 2015 #101
very well known,

He does not write about these things in his rag. The son of the Nazi governor of Kraków Hans Frank devoted his life to exposing his father's evil deeds. That's certainly not Michnik. His brother was a stalinist official with Polish blood on his hands. He's a fugitive criminal hiding like a rat in Sweden.

already broken election promises

That poor excuse for a PM Kopacz has rejected Duda's hand of cooperation so it's difficult for him to impelment his plan for a 500 zł allowance for every child more than one born to poorer families.

I reckon he'll have to wait until PiS score their election victory and a normal government is finally in place. Duda was wrong to try to act civil towards a bunch of Platformer creeps.

a cooperative government

The PO rejected a PiS-PO coalition in 2005. They had favoured a PO-PiS one thinking they would win and PiS would be the junior partner. Ever since then they have been stoking the fires of the Platformer hate industry against PiS. Looks as though they plan to continue although the Polish-Polish war they laucnhed 10 years ago has been a huge waste of human time, energy, newsprint, air time and money that could have been channelled into far worthier causes than mutual insults, recrimination and slander.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
10 Aug 2015 #102
That poor excuse for a PM Kopacz has rejected Duda's hand of cooperation so it's difficult for him to impelment his plan for a 500 zł allowance for every child more than one born to poorer families.

Hahahaha, oh Polly...

What actually happened was that Duda abandoned his election pledge to give 500zl/month to poor families with kids. He did so, claiming that the "government doesn't want to cooperate" - but they never pledged to give the money. This was a Duda policy, conceived without the support of the Government. Now he won't even introduce the legislation to the Sejm for it to be rejected, so it's hard to see how the Government won't work with him if he won't even introduce the legislation in question. By the way, the normal procedure is for the Sejm to introduce legislation and for the President to work with the Government on their policies, not the other way round.

In short, he's already breaking promises to his electorate. He knows fine well that a debate in the Sejm would result in a clear majority against it, so he obviously wants to avoid getting defeated in the Sejm already.

If he genuinely wants to work with Kopacz, then he should have sat down with her quietly and asked about the potential of preparing a bill on the matter. PO might well have agreed to some limited financial help, but he didn't even try.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,406
10 Aug 2015 #103
If he genuinely wants to work with Kopacz, then he should have sat down with her quietly

Why should he as the date for the general election is set for the end of October. The next Government may give him 1,000 zł/month or 2,000 zł/month or 2,500 zł/month or whatever you want ...
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Aug 2015 #104
debate in the Sejm

Maybe a Sejm debate would be good by showing the PO up for the hypocrites and elitist creeps they really are. Then maybe insetad of PiS winning 42-30, the Platfusy would get all of 18% or even less.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
10 Aug 2015 #105
Why should he as the date for the general election is set for the end of October. The next Government may give him 1,000 zł/month or 2,000 zł/month or 2,500 zł/month or whatever you want ...

Exactly, it's all political strategy. Blaming Kopacz for not cooperating is just usual PiS nonsense where they blame PO for absolutely everything.

For what it's worth, anyone that voted for Duda believing that he would give them 500zl/month needs to have their head examined.

Maybe a Sejm debate would be good by showing the PO up for the hypocrites and elitist creeps they really are. Then maybe insetad of PiS winning 42-30, the Platfusy would get all of 18% or even less.

Socialism, Polonius, Socialism...

Anyway, many PO voters from 2007 and 2011 absolutely do not want payments in hard cash to poor parents, because they know that the pathology will start to breed just to get an extra 500zl a month.

If Duda introduced legislation that provided for a 500zl/month tax cut per child, it would probably gain significant support among all parties as it wouldn't reward pathology.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Aug 2015 #106
Socialism

No, społeczna gospodarka rynkowa, market with a human face. Never forget -- society does not comprise solely bankers, corporate executives and yuppies. The vast majority are normal families struggling to make ends meet.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
10 Aug 2015 #107
So - why doesn't Duda introduce legislation providing for tax cuts for normal families? Let's be realistic - the country could probably afford to provide a 200zl/month tax rebate now. Or perhaps make creche and nursery fees tax-deductible? That would also work.

Handing out physical cash rarely works well, as you've seen in the United States.

Remember, all the PiS promises are based upon increased tax collection. If you can't get 50 billion through VAT, then you can get 50 billion through VAT on education, fuel taxes, cadestral taxes, extra pension taxes and much much more.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,406
10 Aug 2015 #108
Exactly, it's all political strategy.

Indeed, I'm a bit sceptical about PiS. All I remeber from the period of these people in power was constant quarelling with everyone and among the coalition they formed with Samoobrona and that other party of Roman Giertych, LPR, during 2005-2007. There was this filming in the Mariott hotel in Warsaw after which the PiS government collapsed. On the other hand, PiS is not quite what the liberal media portray them (and they portray them as evil only). But it is true, PiS have a lot of people among their rank who simply annoy a typical Polish voter who doesn't take part in the discussions on the PolishForum (and a typical Polish voter doesn't). One latest example was a certain Hoffman, the party spokesperson, if I remember correctly, recently fired from PiS, who was an absolutely disgusting figure. Also, Antoni Macierewicz has been put in the attic for a time being so as not to annoy the voter of the center who may eventually vote for PiS. A cartoon on the cover page of a certain weekly showed a cleaning lady opening the door to a cellar and saying: Panie Antoni, you may go out now, the presidential election is over! Even the chairman of the party, Jarosław Kaczyński himself has been shut down somewhere so as not to appear and annoy the potential voter of PiS.
jon357 67 | 16,655
10 Aug 2015 #109
PM Kopacz has rejected Duda's hand of cooperation so it's difficult for him to impelment his plan for a 500 zł allowance for every child

Why would a non-executive president have a 'plan'? The government have an electoral programme, and this has been a great success.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Aug 2015 #110
a great success

That's why they'll lose the election?! Poles have had it up to here with the Platfusy. After the votes are counted the Polish nation will lustily shout: good riddance to the Platformer crooks, schemers and scammers. They've stolen as much as they're going to!
jon357 67 | 16,655
10 Aug 2015 #111
What a load of old nonsense. If there's any consolation, the PiSuarz electoral demographic is dying off and even if they get in this time, it's likely to be like their last brief and disastrous truncated term of office - mercifully short.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Aug 2015 #112
ikely to be like their last

It'll most likely be the Platfusy's last campaign in their present form. After they are smashingly defeated, in-fighting will ensue and most likely the Platformers will break up into 2 or 3 different parties. One for the hard-nosed pro-capitalists, another for the flaky libertine loons and a third for any surviving decent conservatives still found in that unsavoury setting.
jon357 67 | 16,655
10 Aug 2015 #113
flaky libertine loons

'Flaky libertine loons', Pol3? What are you on? If that's the best you can manage, Poland's rural far-right will have to try very hard indeed.

It looks very much like they'll survive rather well. We'll have to watch by the way PSL. As ever, they could be the deciding factor.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Aug 2015 #114
libertine loons

If the shoe fits, wear it! You know pricely who is meant: assorted Christophobes, bashers of the traditonal "patriarchal" family, the pro-abortion, pro-LGBT, pro-test-tube baby, pro-counter-culture household, pro-gender-change on demand (without as much as a chop-job required -- Grodzka should have waited a bit) crowd. Also advocates of so-called "recreational" drugs and "legal" (?) highs and of anything else that anarchises and destabilises society.

Merged: PiS-bashing thread

There is an urgent need for a separate thread for all incorrigible PiS-bashers. That way it will decontaminate existing threads from all that boringly repetitive, petty-minded, anti-government claptrap. Those who wish to discuss current Polish affairs in a sane and sensible manner will thus not be forced to constantly wade throug all that incesant grumbling and whinging of the frustrated losers who had put their money on the failed PO.

Who then will be the first to display their "astute" poltical "acumen" and "sophistication" (or maybe sophisrty is a better word?) edited
Wulkan - | 3,243
16 Nov 2015 #115
Good idea, they indeed need a separated playground.
dolnoslask
16 Nov 2015 #116
Yes they need to stop taking the PIS (Joke) is it ok to joke on PF?

I guess in a democracy everyone can have their say, If people don't like things under our new government (and they feel life is bad here) they can leave
NocyMrok
16 Nov 2015 #117
One has to accept the government chosen by the majority of citizens even if it's different from the one one has wished for otherwise it's obviously not Democracy they are about.
Wulkan - | 3,243
16 Nov 2015 #118
One has to accept the government chosen by the majority of citizens

Indeed but them kids prefer to cry 4 years long hoping it can change anything.
OP Harry
16 Nov 2015 #119
One has to accept the government chosen by the majority of citizens

Not even 19% of Poles over the age of 18 voted for the current government. That is what is referred to as the tyranny of the minority.

You're too young to remember this, but there was once an organisation to which some 15% of Polish adults belonged that ruled Poland.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
16 Nov 2015 #120
Not even 19% of Poles over the age of 18 voted for the current government. That is what is referred to as the tyranny of the minority.

even less voted for the previous one. this didnt seem to bother you before.
as for newest survey..PIS 44% SUPPORT
PO-17%
wpolityce.pl/polityka/272042-tns-polska-pis-zwieksza-przewage-na-partie-jaroslawa-kaczynskiego-chce-glosowac-44-proc-polakow-na-po-ledwie-17-proc


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