The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / News  % width posts: 194

Poland's PIS go back to their old ways


jon357 67 | 16,655
6 Aug 2015 #31
That and the system where people vote on Sunday's in the place they're registered, unless they fill in some documents to change that.

And of course the very low turn out, skewed towards elderly voters.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
6 Aug 2015 #32
Sure, Jon, a low turnout favors the opposition but it is like that everywhere. Everybody knows that over 50% of Poles don't vote so what to do? Force people to vote? Cancel elections? In October, not many Poles shall vote.

It is obvious that when fewer than 50% of people vote, whoever gets 50.01% in order to be elected does not represent much of the population but it is like that all the time. A few months ago, there were the local elections and same story, most Poles did not bother to vote.

If most people don't vote, it should be a problem for ALL politicians. If people don't vote, it's because they are disgusted and don't believe in politicians. I personally know people here who used to vote (PO, TR or SLD) and now they don't want to hear anything about politics.
OP Harry
6 Aug 2015 #33
a low turnout favors the opposition but it is like that everywhere.

No, in Poland a low turnout favours PIS.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
6 Aug 2015 #34
@Harry: in this case, PiS was the opposition ;)

It is up to the other parties to motivate their voters.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Aug 2015 #35
Force people to vote

I hear that's what they do in Belgium and Oz - you're reportedly fined for not voting! Anybody know?
smurf 39 | 1,981
6 Aug 2015 #36
Crowds cheered and waved Polish flags as President Andrzej Duda rode through the streets of Warsaw, One TV commentator said it reminded him of JP2's drive-pasts

Bah-hahahahahahah!
Hilarious!
What a dweeb that 'tv commentator' must have been.
Or was it one of your political wet dreams Pol?

increaseing the threshold below which people are not taxed.

Poland has the lowest tax free allowance in the EU, that won't change.

Force people to vote?

Yes, works in Australia. Enforce stiff fines for people who do not vote without a valid reason.
If you want democracy then we all must be a part of it. An election where something like 45% of people don't vote should certainly not count as a true reflection of democracy.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
6 Aug 2015 #37
I know from a client that on the Monday following the 1st turn, Duda was at 7 (am) at Centrum Metro station (in Warsaw) to meet people and offer them coffee.

What I can gather is that Duda did everything that a Presidential candidate should do. He had the big showy official nomination meeting, he put in a spectacular amount of work (I don't remember if it was 150 or 250 appearances, but it was a huge amount) and he really did a good job of encouraging people in more marginal places to get out and vote. Your example is perfectly true - he was out there working as hard as possible and probably couldn't do much more. I may dislike Duda and his "promises", but his election campaign was a textbook example of how to do it.

Komorowski on the other hand barely bothered, his official nomination meeting was dull and dreary, and his whole performance was utterly lacklustre. He beat Duda twice in the debates, but it wasn't enough - he was certainly punished in larger towns as a result. I noticed that he was doing things such as only turning up in PO heartlands - but those places would have been 65-70% Komorowski regardless. All he really had to do was to get out there to marginal areas and to show that he was listening to them - but he didn't, and as a result, they punished him.

In his first address to the Sejm, Duda called on Poles of every poltical orientation, believers and non-believers to dispaly mutual resepct and not try to impose their views on others.

So Duda will refrain from vetoing any legislation that offers people choice, then? Mutual respect means that I respect your choice not to use in vitro - and you respect my choice to use it. I respect your choice to attend church, and you respect LGBT individuals. That's mutual respect.

Someone (working at a high position in the administration) told me last year that there was a new generation of PiS and contrary to what I thought, PiS (and also PSL) do not consist of only old farts and "village idiots". Life is not so simple, it is not white or black. It is wrong to think that old, poor, uneducated vote for PiS and young, rich and educated vote for PO - it is obviously more complicated than that.

PSL was never idiotic - they consist mostly of middle class people. Maybe 15 years ago, they were, but the PSL evolved to be rather a party representing middle class rural interests.

PiS on the other hand - except the Presidential election, every single election for the last 8 years has had the same result - older, lesser educated go to PiS, younger, educated go to PO. The problem is that the PO electorate has a habit of staying away - whereas the PiS voters are fanatical about turning out.

I rather suspect those that consider voting PiS now will immediately regret it as soon as their parents lose their jobs in the administrations because PiS want only loyal party cadre in those positions.
OP Harry
6 Aug 2015 #38
Apparently a 'Smolensk cross' is already up outside the Presidential Palace! Excellent news!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Aug 2015 #39
lowest tax free allowance

No-one with gross earnings of less than 1,300 zł a month should pay any income tax. The big foreign super market chains should finally be made to pay their fair share.They are paying Polish workers starvation wages, creating deplorable working conditons, channelling most of their profits to their home countries and re-investing the vary bare minimum in Poland needed for the operation to keep ticking over. The re-Polonisaiton of banks proposed by PiS sounds promising but actual details are still sparse.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
7 Aug 2015 #40
@Pol: in Belgium vote is compulsory but when people don't vote, no fine of any kind.... I believe it's also compulsory in Brazil (my "friend' Levi shall confirm/infirm ;))
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
7 Aug 2015 #41
No-one with gross earnings of less than 1,300 zł a month should pay any income tax.

Who will pay for it?

The big foreign super market chains should finally be made to pay their fair share.

At the cost to the Polish consumer.

They are paying Polish workers starvation wages

At least the case I'm familiar with - Biedronka and Lidl - pay quite good wages. I think the only chain guilty of what you're suggesting is Carrefour, who tend to hire very poor agency staff. It's a shame, because Carrefour in France is a fantastic supermarket.

The re-Polonisaiton of banks proposed by PiS sounds promising but actual details are still sparse.

How does this fit in with the fact that most banks are already Polish owned, and their bank tax will simply hurt Polish consumers?

PiS-economics are entirely based around stealth taxation (on supermarkets, on banks, which at the end of the day are a tax on the consumer) to pay for social welfare measures. It's a model copied straight from the British New Labour - headline taxes are low, but in reality, crippling increases are applied to many things in every day life. We currently have the cheapest (give or take 1 cent) fuel prices in the EU - PiS-economics means extra fuel taxes, which would hurt ordinary Poles.
gumishu 11 | 5,680
7 Aug 2015 #42
How does this fit in with the fact that most banks are already Polish owned

******** bull ****

We currently have the cheapest (give or take 1 cent) fuel prices in the EU

ever heard of taxes normalization on fuel in the EU - Polish fuel can't be significantly cheaper than German fuel simple as that

delphi do you know the scale of VAT evasion in Poland - at the moment it is estimated at 50 billion PLN yearly - this is mostly due to the state neglect (and I personally believe that it is a deliberate neglect)
Roger5 1 | 1,457
7 Aug 2015 #43
state neglect

Poland would be considerably wealthier if it collected its tax.

deliberate neglect

I get lost when people start talking about abstruse economic theories, but why do you think the government might be turning a blind eye to tax evasion? Is it about liquidity?
gumishu 11 | 5,680
7 Aug 2015 #44
why do you think the government might be turning a blind eye to tax evasion?

it's about inherent corruption of the PO and PSL parties

ever heard Mr Bartłomiej Sienkiewicz state that this state (country) exists only theoretically? well you may never heard of Sowa tapes ok
Roger5 1 | 1,457
7 Aug 2015 #45
Oh, right. Thanks.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Aug 2015 #46
most banks are already Polish owned

Alior, PEKAO SA, Raifeisen, Millennium, Rabobank, BPH, mBank...?
gumishu 11 | 5,680
7 Aug 2015 #47
Alior

Alior bank is supposed to be taken over by PZU (it was approved by the anti-monopoly regulatory recently)
InPolska 11 | 1,821
7 Aug 2015 #48
@Gumish: are you sure re Alior? I happen to have a savings account with them. Probably they are not doing very well. Bank was opened by a French guy of Polish origin.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
7 Aug 2015 #49
ever heard Mr Bartłomiej Sienkiewicz state that this state (country) exists only theoretically? well you may never heard of Sowa tapes ok

He's completely right. No country (even North Korea) exists by itself. Maybe you think it's a big deal, but to most of us, we know and understand that Poland would completely collapse overnight should it cease to be dependent on others.

delphi do you know the scale of VAT evasion in Poland - at the moment it is estimated at 50 billion PLN yearly - this is mostly due to the state neglect (and I personally believe that it is a deliberate neglect)

Gumishu, come on... do you really believe that, or are you just repeating what the opposition says?

The total collection in 2014 was budgeted at around 114 billion zloty. What you're claiming is that 1/3rd of VAT revenues have been evaded - which would be news all over the world if it were true. That number was invented by PiS in order to show how they'll pay for all these social programmes that are totally unfunded - when the time comes to deliver on those promises, they'll blame a shortfall on tax revenues and hence they won't be enacted.

ever heard of taxes normalization on fuel in the EU - Polish fuel can't be significantly cheaper than German fuel simple as that

The tax level is at pretty much the lowest amount allowed in the EU. It is significantly cheaper than in Germany (although Germany has quite low fuel taxes...) and hugely cheaper than in Italy and the Netherlands. Don't try and pretend otherwise, and don't blame the EU - there is absolutely no obligation for Poland to raise taxes on fuel, but of course PiS will try and blame the EU when they load 20-30gr on every litre with their first budget.

Alior, PEKAO SA, Raifeisen, Millennium, Rabobank, BPH, mBank...?

Alior will be taken over by PZU. Most of the others (except PEKAO and Millennium) will probably not survive as well. PKO and PZU have made it pretty clear that they intend to mop up a lot of the smaller retail banks.

I get lost when people start talking about abstruse economic theories, but why do you think the government might be turning a blind eye to tax evasion? Is it about liquidity?

The government isn't turning a blind eye, this is the thing. Anyone that runs a business will tell you how the tax office has been getting very sharp recently - including ZUS going after false "umowa o dzieło" contracts, the tax office has pretty much placed kasa fiskalna machines in most businesses including doctors and lawyers, and in general, the black economy is falling. It's not an overnight job, but they're on the right path.

What PiS is claiming is that they can fund all their electoral promises through "improved tax collection". It's utterly false - anyone that understands politics will know that the real plan is to tax everyone with New Labour-style stealth taxation. Notice how PiS are utterly silent on the huge burden that self employed people face - that's because the self employed will be one of their big targets for more taxation.
Roger5 1 | 1,457
7 Aug 2015 #50
Anyone that runs a business will tell you how the tax office has been getting very sharp recently

That's true. The tax office phoned us twice last month about discrepancies in our accounts. Both times the mistake was on their side, but it shows they are sharpening up. However, I still think they could find an awful lot among car mechanics, builders, etc.
gumishu 11 | 5,680
7 Aug 2015 #51
Gumishu, come on... do you really believe that, or are you just repeating what the opposition says?

it's not what opposition claims - it is what very well known professors on taxation say - and it's not income tax evasion - it's VAT evasion which is significantly different - going after small businesses will not help here - they are choosing an easy way out but it will lead nowhere
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
7 Aug 2015 #52
it's not what opposition claims - it is what very well known professors on taxation say

And what is the political affiliation of those professors?

Poland's university sector is sadly riddled with unprofessional idiots that will say anything to support political parties. For that reason, I find it impossible to take such words seriously unless it comes from someone known to be apolitical.
gumishu 11 | 5,680
7 Aug 2015 #53
And what is the political affiliation of those professors?

ever heard of professor Witold Modzelewski - I heard about him as early as early 90's - he is a known figure and hardly an "idiot" - pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Modzelewski
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
7 Aug 2015 #54
ever heard of professor Witold Modzelewski

Działalność polityczna

15 lutego 2014 został członkiem rady programowej partii Prawo i Sprawiedliwość

Member of PiS. Excuse me while I fall over in shock.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Aug 2015 #55
kasa fiskalna

It is even said that the tirówki will soon have a fiscal cash register strapped to their waist.
gumishu 11 | 5,680
7 Aug 2015 #56
Member of PiS. Excuse me while I fall over in shock

he is one of the creators of vat an akcyza in Poland - anyway you have actually judged yourself

Member of PiS

he was not a member of PiS for a very long time - but he realized that current rulers of Poland ruin it - he speaks about privatization of tax law - especially the reversed VAT

The total collection in 2014 was budgeted at around 114 billion zloty. What you're claiming is that 1/3rd of VAT revenues have been evaded - which would be news all over the world if it were true.

as Modzelewski states the income of the state from taxation is constantly falling since 2008 despite constant economical growth and you say there is less and less of black zone in economy or no VAT evasion - between 2008 and 2009 the income of the state from taxation has fallen by 10 per cent from my memory - it's because crooks run this country - the constantly falling tax income causes the constantly growing budget deficit
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
7 Aug 2015 #57
It is even said that the tirówki will soon have a fiscal cash register strapped to their waist.

Good. The Germans do very well with legalised and taxed prostitution. As I recall, GDP figures already take it into account anyway.

as Modzelewski states the income of the state from taxation is constantly falling since 2008 despite constant economical growth and you say there is less and less of black zone in economy or no VAT evasion - between 2008 and 2009 the income of the state from taxation has fallen by 10 per cent from my memory - it's because crooks run this country - the constantly falling tax income causes the constantly growing budget deficit

Stop. Just stop.

2007's revenues - finanse.mf.gov.pl/documents/766655/1490440/2007+r - 241 billion.
2014's revenues - finanse.mf.gov.pl/documents/766655/3406416/2014+r - 297 billion.

Why are you telling such bad and obvious lies? It's an increase of 56 billion - or around 23% increase in tax revenues since the start of the PO government. That's really not a bad result given the economic crisis...

He's a PiS member and hence his "figures" are absolute lies.

There are areas of tax law that can be dramatically improved - but in general, PO have overseen a huge increase in collected taxes.

Harry mentioned above about crosses - is it really true that they've started putting up a cross daily outside the Presidential Palace?

And if so, excellent :D

edit : found some pictures online. Poor Duda - in the job 24 hours and already the psychos are proclaiming him to be their saviour. Poor PiS - no matter what they do, their supporters will always screw it up for them.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Aug 2015 #58
unprofessional idiots

And of course their professional idiocy stems from the fact that they do not belong to or support PO, innit?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,456
7 Aug 2015 #59
It's the fact that they get involved so openly with politics.

SLD, PO, PiS, doesn't matter - it's always annoying to see professors ruin their reputations by supporting political causes.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Aug 2015 #60
see professors ruin their reputations by supporting political causes

Back during the first presidential popular election campaign, the Church was condemned for supporting Wałęsa -- the Church is infterfering in poltiics bla-bla.... But somehow the Michnikites did not condemn Warsaw University professors who openly urged their students to vote for Mazowiecki. The latter was a worse offence because UW is a state institution.


Home / News / Poland's PIS go back to their old ways
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.