What are Poland's optimal both real and virtual neighbors?

I don't know the exact data but heard recently that around 50 per cent of Polish businesses are on the verge of bankruptcy (you can image most of these are small businesses but still)- I hope many of these people can go to Germany to find work

edit: also Polish debt grows dramatically

For whom? It wasn't a barrier in the past, and it isn't at present.


Not basis, but an additional argument.


Because I don't see that many changes in people's situation, and others reasons I don't care to write now, because I'm a bit preoccupied at the moment.

I always wonder why mainstream media don't write about it ... :D


We are not talking about this one, are we ... ?

hmm is he not good enough to write about politics?
how do you actually judge it ?
he's a columnist in Rzeczpospolita - I don't buy newspapers but you can read a lot by Ziemkiewicz in Rzeczpospolita online edition (rp.pl - the site is often pretty slow to load but does load in the end)

Actually it is - people have a right to choose which country administers their territory.

No argument at all. The geopolitical situation seven hundred years ago is irrelevant today.

You know, Ironside, you often write very good sense here. But this isn't. By the same logic of your 'argument' Poland could be partitioned again between Germany, Russia and Austria. After all, you don't think the nationality of the residents is a "barrier" to lack of sovereignty and if Kalingrad being Polish seven hundred years ago is a reason for it being Polish today, you should remember that there is a clear and more recent precedent for Poland to be divided as it was from the end of the Eighteenth Century right up until 1918.

I know that's wrong, you know that's wrong, so why wish it on the people of Kaliningrad?

They could also be forcibly relocated, it have been done before you know, hell the offspring of a settler of 70 years ago dose not really hold a claim on that land either.


So is the reality that exist today in that area, irrelevant.

there is no question of Kaliningrad region in Polish politics just a couple of delusional fellows badly wish to have it (but they won't be doing politics here any time soon)

They could if the president wants to end up in jail in The Hague. Britain and France were very lucky to get away with that sort of thing a couple of times on a very very small scale and outside Europe in the 1950s - no politician would dare since the formation of the ICC. The likely response from the Russian government is something best avoided too.


Exactly.

Then you don't know much about Europe. How do you think the inhabitants of that area got there in the first place, you miss the point all together and yes they did get away with it, just to make it clear the inhabitants of Królewiec that is.

Do they ? I wonder, maybe theoretically they can, or maybe in your fairy story, in my fairy story mostly they are shuffled about without chance to exercise their rights .


So, what about geological situation from three hundred years ago?


No, my argument is that Kalinigrand should belong to Poland because it is part of Prusy, country which have had many ties with Poland, and larger part of which belongs to Poland already. Also, it is a artificial enclave of Russia next to Poland, only natural is that Poland would claim that land,like Spain Gibraltar or China Hong-Kong.

Partition was wrong,but we cannot really go back to borders from before 1772.
So, can we can only make it right as much as we can. As for people of K, I'm sure that in long run it would benefit them also

.

Evidently rather more than you, since I can see exactly how Russia would respond to mass deportations of their inhabitants. Interesting how your theory that people who "got to an area" can be moved out again by force relates to the situation of those Poles living in former German territories.


I don't remember that happening within the EU in my lifetime. Do you often propose ethnic cleansing?


None. Historical borders (like the Nineeenth Century borders between Russia, Germany and Austria) are not a basis for borders todayl, whatever you may think.


Prussia no longer exists, its citizens are dispersed and its territory is divided. What was or wasn't in a country that doesn't exist and is spread across several nation states with no real movement to revive it is not the basis for Poland or anyone else to annex another country's sovereign territory.

Conveniently overlooking Yugoslavia or Kosovo ?:)


Only when it suites me :) No, only when the great injustice can be fixed by lesser injustice.

I-S (bye, bye )

Not only that it can but it was done so many times in the pest. There you go former German territory and prior to that former Polish territory, if one region can be returned to its rightful owners so can others, all it really takes is one good war.


What you call ethnic cleansing I call partial justice.

Yes. Very conveniently. I'm also overlooking the international outcry, the invasion by NATO and the subsequent trials of those involved. Is Kaliningrad worth any of that?


If anything, its rightful owner is Germany, but in any case - do you really want "one good war" in Europe? Poles don't.

Shows how much you know about the history of that region, no surprise there as you are reluctant to open up a history book, in your opinion its irreverent as your mind is stock in one particular moment in history.


Poles? Who would that be? Someone like yourself an immigrant or someone like myself. Go figure it’s people like you that have a lot to say; what’s polish and whatnot always trying to impose their believes on the rest of us and speak for us. You have your opinion I have mine.

Yes. German from centuries ago until 1945. The situation in the Thirteenth Century is irrelevant today. Otherwise half the world would be at war.


Normal people in Poland. Not fanatics, irredentists, fantasists.


Unfortunately yours is bizarre and eccentric. Show me one Polish President, Premier or Foreign Minister within living memory who has asserted a formal claim for sovereignty over Kaliningrad.

Yes, and a few trillion Dollars investment to integrate the new won land into any country.
Lets not forget that Germany so far has put more than a trillion € (Thats a number with 12 zeros) into East Germany and it will still take a few more decades until no more transfer payments are needed and the East is on the same level as the West.

A Korean Unification is estimated to will cost 5 trillion Dollars, and in the case of "reuniting" Kaliningrad with any other country you would have additional problems and costs because you don't even have a common language and culture of the people you are trying to "unite".

Maybe I am missing something and Kaliningrad became an economic powerhouse in the past couple of years or they found tons of Diamonds and Oil in its soil that would actually make it a worthwhile target. Because otherwise I really don't see why anyone would want to risk a war for this little strip of land.

Centuries my a**, besides you don’t even have an opinion do you? If the whole premise of your debate about the status of Królewiec and its future which you started in the first place is based on here and now than the same should apply for the so called former German lands but it does not, does it now? Makes one question your motives for even debating this subject, the subject for which you don't have a strong opinion or justification, makes me wonder if you even have a principle to which you adhere to or do you argue for argument sake alone, in which case this whole debate is irreverent.

So if it wasn't German for centuries, what was that big Prussian flag doing flying over the town hall and all those people speaking German. And when was it part of a sovereign Poland?


Kaliningrad, in English.


Not my debate, and if you read the thread, others started the discussion. It's always a good idea to read before posting.


A meaningless sentence, but for the record I don't support a change in Poland's borders.


International law.

Read the thread before commenting. And by the way, you still haven't come up with any Polish government within living memory who have asserted a claim on Kaliningrad.

It’s a threat to our independence as well as future stability of Europe. For purely economic reasons I would have to agree with you.


Królewiec is much more appealing to my ears.


Perhaps not, all I’m saying that if you make a here and now the core of your debate than stick to it.


Revised so many times in the past, who knows what the future will hold, that’s what we are discussing here after all, a possible future.


Your problem is that you’re stock in the time warp, get out of the loop you’re stock in and you might see the light.

What's wrong with Königsberg?

The city center is 4.8m over sea level. So its not a "Berg" at all and there are no actual Kings living there. Calling it Königsberg is just false advertisement ;)

Which I did. A poster was claiming that it was Polish in the Thirteenth Century thereby giving Poland a claim now. I disagree with that, and pointed out the obvious logical fallacy. It really is a good idea if you actually read the all preceeding posts before jumping to conclusions.


In which Germany has irrevocably renounced their claim, Russia has asserted theirs and Poland has none.


What time warp? I repeat, Poland has never asserted a claim on that territory and the people of Poland neither want Kaliningrad nor can afford it.

Again - you should read the thread before jumping to conclusions. And BTW, Kaliningrad has no strategic relevance to PL who already have a large enough stretch of the southern Baltic Coast, and any "Russian threat" wouldn't go away if they for whatever reason gave it away. Then again, didn't you just advocate "one good war" in Europe?

Okay..."BauernamMeer" then! ;)

well - one strategic threat would vanish - the threat that Russian tanks would be in 3 hours in Warsaw

Where did you get that from?


And still much lower comparatively.
27th External
47th public debt

Nothing wrong with it, but if you come to Poland refer to it as the locals do, you know when in Rome….. I’ll do the same when I’m in Germany, promise.


There’s no fallacy, historically speaking Poland has a claim to that land period.


The key word in my statement was “future” so what’s the point of pointing out the obvious.


Wrong on both counts, there was a time when it was under Polish control so you can’t say Poland never did asserted its claim, as for the latter you speak for every person in Poland now. LOL

just heard it somewhere on TV I guess - even if I read it on the internet I don't always save such links - maybe I got something wrong here

Historically Poland has no claim. On what basis do you pretend it does?


As no doubt you know, it wasn't under any sort of Polish control - not since the Treaty of Oliwa anyway. Kaliningrad was always German. No Polish government has ever asserted a claim of sovereignty regardless of whatever you pretend.


An odd thing to say. Those of us who live in Poland and actually have a connection to the issue have never heard of anything like that.

I would move Hungary in place of Slovakia, swap Germany for France in the west, Czechs, Ukrainians
and Belarus can stay where they are. In addition, I would exchange Lithunia for Ireland (similar in size,
so should fit in well) and give Kaliningrad district to China with full rights for all Chinese citizens to travel
to and fro between Kaliningrad and China proper he he :)