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A new AWS (Poland Solidarity Movement)?


polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #1
Yestrday's Awaken Poland! march has given rise to disucssion about the country's political future. Some are mulling the prospect of creating a major formation in the AWS mode combining Soldiarnosc, PiS and theTrwam-Maryja community with room for Solidary Poland and other groupings and associations committed to traditonal values (God, honour, homeland) and hoenst governemnt. Its still too early to predict whether such thinking will coalesce into a substantive movement, but that cannot be ruled out. It would be great if Poland could be ruled by a clean-hands, honest, trasnparent and decent formation in the service of the entire nation, not just its ruthless and often shady, money and power-hungry elites.

The AWS up till then was the only governtment that lasted an entire term and succeeded in that short space of time in carrying out four major reforms. Unfortunatley, the post-commies scrubbed Buzek's (kasa chorych) health reform and created in its place the National Health Fund so it could put its party comrades into fat-cat jobs in its central and regional structures.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
30 Sep 2012  #2
Except that AWS contained the Unia Wolnosci and PO emerged from AWS too. There simply isn't the support in Polish politics to win an election based on Solidarność, PiS and the Rydzyk empire. These groups enjoy - at the most - 30% of the vote in Poland. They're offering nothing new - and anyway, Duda and Kaczynski could never agree to give up power under such an umbrella.

The AWS up till then was the only governtment that lasted an entire term

It was also routed at the next election and finished the term as a minority government. Or have you forgotten that PiS also broke away from AWS during this time?
sobieski 107 | 2,129
30 Sep 2012  #3
And that PIS without any problems formed a government with LPR and Lepper?
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #4
Naturally they would have to rise above their petty ambitions and see the bigger picture. Kaczynski, Duda, Ziobro, Rydzyk, mabe a few others (Gwiazda, Pospieszalski, Fronda, etc.) could form a winning team. As time wears on, more and more people will become disaffected and get fed up with the ruling Tus camp and by then will have forgotten any real or alleged shortcvmigns of the previous government... Happens every time.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
30 Sep 2012  #5
Kaczynski, Duda, Ziobro, Rydzyk, mabe a few others (Gwiazda, Pospieszalski, Fronda, etc.) could form a winning team.

But again, they need a coalition partner. An alliance of Kaczynski/Duda/Ziobro/Rydzyk would be incredibly off-putting for the other 70%.

As time wears on, more and more people will become disaffected and get fed up with the ruling Tus camp and by then will have forgotten any real or alleged shortcvmigns of the previous government... Happens every time.

But that doesn't matter, because the voters will not switch to PiS, but rather to the SLD. PO voters won't start voting for PiS - no matter how much you think that it's possible despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Hard line Catholic trade unionism is exceptionally off-putting for the voters - the fact that PiS are down to as low as 26% tells you that it simply isn't a winning combination.
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #6
It may be off-putting to voters, but only the post-communist and libertine ones who don't count anyway.

Everything changes with time and PiS will also evolve. A Ziobro-led PiS migth be just what Stanley Q. Voterski was looking for. Nobody knows, only time will tell. But the longer PO rules and contginues generating its scams and slip-ups, that'll only be grist to the mill of the decent, wholesome, anti-decadent, Catholic and patriotic forces just waiting in the wings to make sure 'żeby Polska była Polską'. The only problem is that by then all of Poland's industrial assets (not excluding KGHM, energy companies and the petroleum refineries) will have been 'privatised', ie lost to foreign captial. Then nearly every Pole will be working as a foreign mercenary in his own country. If only for that reason, the quicker Tusk goes the better!
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
30 Sep 2012  #7
It may be off-putting to voters, but only the post-communist and libertine ones who don't count anyway.

What a wonderful example of the kind of politics you indulge in - the fact that you think they don't count is exactly why the 70% votes against PiS on a regular basis. They don't want and fear a takeover by a group who will do everything to marginalise them.

Anyway, we live in a democracy, and those 70% who "don't count" very much count.

Ah, the hysteria. Thankfully the voters don't fall for such tactics.

Anyway, it's nice to see that you're already conceding defeat in 2015. Poland shall be free until 2019 at least!
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #8
Do you look forward to the sell-out of KGHM? Why not hand it over to the Germans Russians!?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
30 Sep 2012  #9
I look forward to all the nice tax revenue that a privatised KGHM can raise, free from the restraints of public ownership and with it, expectations of spoiled miners who will soon learn that in the real world, they get what they're worth, not what they can blackmail out of the Government.

Don't forget that the real reason you want public ownership of KGHM is because your type can continue extracting ridiculously lucrative pay deals from the Government.
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #10
What do I as a foriegn national extract from the Polish government? Are you already hitting the Sobieski this early inthe day or is it just more of the typcial Delphic BS! My only concern is to keep it in Polish hands so Poland does not become a neo-colony run by outside capital. It is strictly patriotic pride in ownership that's involved. Eveyrone should think of ways of creating and developing a a pool of indigenous Polish capital, not serve foreign interests as mere hirelings. And where are the laid-off KGHM mners to go? Swell the ranks of the jobless so you'll have more people to look down on?!
boletus 30 | 1,367
30 Sep 2012  #11
I admit, economy is not my cup of tea, but I watched what have happened with two Polish aircraft manufacurers (AugustaWelland)
pzl.swidnik.pl and PZL-Mielec (Sikorsky) pzlmielec.pl/en over the last several years.

Mielec is still producing its staple planes M28, M28B Bryza, and M18 Dromader plus Sikorsky's S70i-Black Hawk.
During the 20th MSPO Polskie Zakłady Lotnicze together with Sikorsky Aircraft signed three cooperation agreements with the leading enterprises of the aviation industry in Poland: Military Aviation Works no. 1, ECT-PZL Aerospace Industries and Central Military Bureau of Design and Technology. All agreements establish an extensive cooperation in the event of selection of S-70i BLACK HAWK helicopter by MOD as a multi-purpose helicopter for Polish Army.

Świdnik continues modernizing its many civilian and military versions of Sokół helicopters; it starts development of Sokół W-3PL/N Naval Helicopter based on Sokół W-3PL Głuszec (modern military); exports the military versions to Philippine Air Force; began exporting Sokół W-3A to Chile, as a firefighting helicopter; recently delivered the 1000th fuselage for AugustaWestland. PZL-Świdnik signed the contract with Pilatus Aicraft Ltd. for assembling up to 50 fuselages per year of Pilatus PC-12 - a single-engine turboprop aircraft, designed for transport of persons and cargo, providing seating for up to 9 passengers in the standard version. Approximately 120 Świdnik employees will work at the assembly of PC-12 aircraft fuselages.

PZL-Świdnik SA and 14 Polish Partners joined forces in establishing the AW149 Industrial Team. The AW149 is the only new generation multi-role military helicopter in its category in decades, and the result of extensive design input from Polish engineers and their technological know-how. The military twin engine helicopter made its first appearance at MSPO 2012, Kielce, Poland - 3/6 September 2012.

Both companies and Eurocopter will soon start bidding for the contract of 70 military helicopters for Polish Armed Force to be ordered by MON. The choices are: AW149 (AugustaWestland-Świdnik), EC-725 (Eurocopter) and UH-60i Black Hawk (Sikorsky-Mielec).

I somehow feel proud to see what these companies do, about Polish technologies being used in production, about Polish designs. And I do not see workers loosing their jobs. In contrary, both parent companies brought with them modern technologies and processes, as well as many contracts, which benefit Polish plants and their workers.
jon357 64 | 14,382
30 Sep 2012  #12
It may be off-putting to voters, but only the post-communist and libertine ones who don't count anyway.

Unusual to say that voters don't count - I can assure you, their votes are counted very carefully indeed.
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #13
The several percent who consciously support a decadent-libertine agenda do not count in the nation's overall scope of things, but the wide voting masses they have managed to bamboozle do count. It's therefore necessary to enlighten and de-Tusk-ify the hoodwinked Polish voter.And only the uprights, decent, wholesome Polish right can do that! It's no wonder that lewizna (shady business, scams) shares the same etymology as lewica (left wing).
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
30 Sep 2012  #14
Does anyone else get the impression that Polonius and his type are doing a wonderful job of keeping PiS in opposition forever?

Remember people, the "decent, wholesome right" is led by a known homosexual who had a treasonous, traitorous father who betrayed his allies in the AK for the sake of a good few paydays in Communist Poland. If that's "decent and wholesome", well!

Why isn't Jaroslaw Kaczynski married with children like a good Catholic, Polonius?

When he starts living a "wholesome family life", then you can criticise others for making the same choices as he made.
boletus 30 | 1,367
30 Sep 2012  #15
It's therefore necessary to enlighten and de-Tusk-ify the hoodwinked Polish voter.

What are you going to be when you grow up?

Do not be so naive trying to convince everybody, who cares or cares not, that all that bad stuff comes from the left and all that angelic stuff - from the right. The law of normal distribution applies to PiS as well. The Gausian (bell) curve - describing shady business doing and scams for example, Polonius, is everywhere exactly the same. The standard means and deviations may be different, but then you have no data to support your claim that RIGHT is always right, or predominantly right.



OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #16
At least one thing is certrain -- nobody says: 'Po lewicy Boga Ojca!'
And as a linguist yoiu know that this concept is deeply engrained in our civilisation: in English we say something is right (good, proper, correct), a person is uprigth and righteous. In Polish: człowiek prawy, prawdziwy, prawo, prawowity and,on the other hand -- lewizna, dwie lewe ręce; and there is also the left-handed compliment and somethign crude, clumsy and improper is referred to as gauche.

BTW does your bell curve extend to PRL as well?
jon357 64 | 14,382
30 Sep 2012  #17
A play on words involving the seating positions in the former French parliament is hardly a basis for political theory.

I think you have finally flipped.
boletus 30 | 1,367
30 Sep 2012  #18
BTW does your bell curve extend to PRL as well?

Absolutely. Do you remember, I mentioned the mean and the variance? These are the two parameters describing the exact shape of the bell function - be it shallow, or sharp, it is still the bell curve, including PRL bells. :-)

I have known many good, honest people, working miracles during PRL. Doctors "Judyms", working their butts of. Pro publico bono.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
30 Sep 2012  #19
The several percent who consciously support a decadent-libertine agenda

You mean the 70% of the electorate?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,170
30 Sep 2012  #20
A new AWS?

Hopefully not.

combining Soldiarnosc, PiS and theTrwam-Maryja community

Trade union in politics is the best way to disaster and Trwam... the only way for PiS to defeat PO is to get non-political experts to prepare a good plan of badly needed reforms and move more to the center. If they keep concentrating on Rydzyk, Tusk will win 3rd time, If that happens, I will never forgive Jaro, It will be all his fault that we will have terrible, anti-Polish government for another 4 years.

so Poland does not become a neo-colony run by outside capital. It

Come on, It already happened many years ago, what we need now is rapid modernization of this country (and prey there will be enough Polish businessmen to make use of it) that is something PO is not capable of but PiS with unionists and Rydzyk will not make it happen either, there are plenty of smart people in Poland, what they need to do is to attract them and let them work, that is not impossible as anti-PiS/pro-PO hysteria is over among most of the experts but they will not do it with unions and Rydzyk.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
30 Sep 2012  #21
Come on, It already happened many years ago, what we need now is rapid modernization of this country

You mean, all these yellow billboards I see on about every construction wharf in Poland, telling that over 50% of the bill is paid by the EU?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,170
30 Sep 2012  #22
I'm sorry but you are not capable of holding any senseful dialog on such issues.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
30 Sep 2012  #23
Actually I do, you know. I pass these yellow billboards everyday on the most amazing corners in Warsaw, on my way to work.
It goes from financing the second metro line, to extending a dual pass road in Bielany, to co-financing kindergartens, and road repair works in Klaudyny.

I do not expect you to understand this.
Nor do I expect any Polonian to have a grasp of this.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,170
30 Sep 2012  #24
OK, If you insist, I will try to activate your brain by asking you a simple question: do you realize that countries such as Greece, Spain or Portugal have had many more and for far too longer, those "yellow billboards" ?
sobieski 107 | 2,129
30 Sep 2012  #25
I do no expect you to grasp the idea of "Europe". Which started in wartime with the Benelux. Growing with Paul-Henri Spaak and Jean-Claude Monet. With Konrad Adenauer.

The idea of a unified Europe, building from the ashes and old antagonisms, forgetting the smolenkist-like martyrdom. Building the bridge between Germany and France. Building on the past with Charlemagne.

Building to prevent a new war, and building prosperity. And Europe has in this way succeeded big time.
I was raised with these ideas.
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #26
People from two-bit postage-stamp-sized countries have no choice but to tack on to something bigger. BTW iIs it true that Belgium is so Euro-integraed that pavements have a line down the middle for citizens of walloon and Flemish ethnicity have to each walk on their side? Or has that been abandoned?
Harry
30 Sep 2012  #27
" People from two-bit postage-stamp-sized countries have no choice but to tack on to something bigger."
Good to see that rule about blanket statements being enforced so zealously.
strzyga 2 | 993
30 Sep 2012  #28
the only way for PiS to defeat PO is to get non-political experts to prepare a good plan of badly needed reforms and move more to the center. If they keep concentrating on Rydzyk, Tusk will win 3rd time, If that happens, I will never forgive Jaro, It will be all his fault that we will have terrible, anti-Polish government for another 4 years.

It's true that we badly need a solid, center-right, economically-oriented party whose prime objective would be to facilitate small and medium sized local business, even if just as a counterbalance to PO, but Jaro is the last person to build it. PIS originally had the potential to become this kind of force but since then Kaczyński has managed to drive all intelligent and reasonable members away. Do not kid yourself, this man is a populist nut and given a choice between economic sensibility and hysterical rhetorics he's always going to yield towards the unions and Rydzyk's pensioners. And you might be right to blame him as without him the right center might have a chance to consolidate into something more sensible than the PIS of today. As it is, he's just a destructive force, luring those who might create an intelligent and competent opposition to PO and then throwing them to extreme populist positions.

I could vote for a right-centered, business-oriented party and it could do a hell of a lot of good to PO too if they had to compete with another competent force. But I'm never going to vote for anything led by Kaczyński. Not in this lifetime. And a large part of the 70% probably feel the same.
OP polonius 55 | 422
30 Sep 2012  #29
What about the line down the pavement? That's quite a fascinating topic innit? BTW there are constatnt blanket statements about the Cahtolic Church, Poland B, PiS, Rydzyk, etc., which you somehow don't seem to mind. You unbaised approach calls to mind a literary character. You probaly won't udnerstand this, so I'll translate. To the black savage Kali (in Sienkiewicz's 'In desert and wilderness') the difference between good and evil is this: Kali steal cow -- that good; someone steal Kali's cow -- that bad.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
1 Oct 2012  #30
the only way for PiS to defeat PO is to get non-political experts to prepare a good plan of badly needed reforms and move more to the center. If they keep concentrating on Rydzyk, Tusk will win 3rd time

They absolutely have to move away from that hard left socialist platform that they've adopted in recent years. It's scaring voters, people can see that Kaczynski's economic proposals are all about spend, spend, spend - and Polish voters aren't going to vote for it. They need to keep the Catholic identity while becoming social democratic - and most of all, they need to repeatedly focus on where the Government is failing (in particular, with education and health). But they also need to moderate the Catholic stuff - instead of embracing Rydzyk and the like, they need to embrace religious freedom for all.

That's how to win the next election - they will lose 5% of the vote to Solidarna Polska, but they'll be in a position to finally hurt PO electorally too. I've said it countless times - a party based on (good) Catholic values without preaching, combined with centre-left economics would win a lot of support in Poland.

But Kaczynski would have to give up power. And - he won't. The man is obsessed with the stuff, and he wants to right the alleged wrongs that he's suffered.

As it is, he's just a destructive force, luring those who might create an intelligent and competent opposition to PO and then throwing them to extreme populist positions.

He is an incredibly destructive force. He's ruined PiS as an electoral force and all but guaranteed that the other parties will work to keep them out of positions of power, such as what happened in the last Sejmik elections. The way that he deals with dissent (by expelling them from the party) also doesn't help - he's created an atmosphere of blind obedience within PiS - and it's not working. They already lost one of the most talented politicians in Ziobro - who - despite the mockery, is a very politically savvy character. His proposals for media relations with Solidarna Polska were absolutely excellent.

I only wonder how long it will take PiS to eliminate him from the party.

I could vote for a right-centered, business-oriented party and it could do a hell of a lot of good to PO too if they had to compete with another competent force.

At least some of Ruch Palikota's support came from people like me - people who like their proposals economically and believe in taking a knife to much of the regulations. I know some small business owners who are very much behind RP - because their ideas to lower the taxation burden on small businesses are incredibly attractive.

PO could only benefit from having to take the opposition seriously - as it stands, all they have to do is not alienate their voters and they've secured re-election. There's no real credible threat to their 40%.


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