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Poland's Nationalists hold congress



Polonius3 1,019 | 12,555    
8 Jun 2013  #1

National Movement holds congress in Warsaw and pledges to fight for a Poland for Poles. (Not very original!) Some politicians on TV indicated that the movement might take some votes away from PiS. Do the nationalists have a chance of crossing the 5% threshold. I shouldn't think so at present, but in love, war and politics everything is possible.

SLD boss Miller said on TV that he represented 'progressive Poland' and the nationalists -- backward (zaściankowa) Poland.


jkb - | 198    
8 Jun 2013  #2

Miller is as progressive as Christianity in the Middle Ages. Regarding the National Movement - divided righties are good righties. They have no real chance of getting into the Parliament, but will hopefully take some votes away from PiS. It's a win - win scenario.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,555    
8 Jun 2013  #3

It was the Church that civilised the barbarians in the dark ages, teaching them to build homes, sow and harvest rather than raid and pillage. The Church set up universities, chronicled history, created libraries, ministered to the sick, aided the needy and the list goes on and on. In those cicsmstances it was indeed progressive and ahead of its time, something veteran Church-bashers and christophobes conveniently overlook..
jkb - | 198    
8 Jun 2013  #4

I was referring to the holy inquisition. But please stay on topic, you're diverging.
Polson 6 | 1,799    
8 Jun 2013  #5

It was the Church that civilised the barbarians in the dark ages, teaching them to build homes, sow and harvest rather than raid and pillage.

Erm, what barbarians? And what dark ages?
The Church didn't invent civilisation, if that's what you mean.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,555    
9 Jun 2013  #6

But it was the main purveyor of cultrue, ethics and civilisation vis-a-vis the barbarians, so Christianisaiton is what civlised them.óThe dark ages was ther period following the collapse of antiquity and the advent of Christian Europe. Orchards and vineyards, cattle pens and sheds, buildings, books and learning were all part of the Church's legacy.

But if someone insists on being a church-basher at all costs, then one can say that it was the Martians who came down and set up schools and libraries, built the beautiful romanesque churches and castles, nursed teh wounded on battlefields, etc., etc.
Ironside 44 | 8,303    
9 Jun 2013  #7

SLD boss Miller said on TV that he represented 'progressive Poland' and the nationalists -- backward (zaściankowa) Poland.

Ask comrade Miller about his ugly influence in sabotaging health services in Poland.
jkb - | 198    
9 Jun 2013  #8

It seems like staying on topic is really hard for certain crusaders in here. Miller should go and die somewhere already.
Polson 6 | 1,799    
9 Jun 2013  #9

But it was the main purveyor of cultrue, ethics and civilisation vis-a-vis the barbarians

'Barbarian' was just a word used by Romans and Greeks to describe other peoples. It's nothing 'primitive', as you mean it.
The Roman empire 'spread' their culture, civilisation long before they became Christians.

built the beautiful romanesque churches

I have to agree with you here. It's true that it's the Church that built churches. (hum)
For the rest, they existed before Christianity, as they also existed in other cultures, at the other end of the world.

nursed teh wounded on battlefields

In wars the Church started. Phew, they helped the wounded and dying people they were responsible for.

Anyway, this is not really the main topic of this thread.
legend 3 | 672    
9 Jun 2013  #10

It seems like staying on topic is really hard for certain crusaders in here. Miller should go and die somewhere already.

Oh the irony. So you support the death of others? How nice of you!
jkb - | 198    
9 Jun 2013  #11

It was a metaphore.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,196    
9 Jun 2013  #12

SLD boss Miller said on TV that he represented 'progressive Poland'

LOL !

Do the nationalists have a chance of crossing the 5% threshold.

Hopefully not, It would most probably be LPR 2.0 and I don't see how crap like that is needed in any way. I'm looking forward to Wipler, non-political experts and possibly some PJN people creating a healthy, anti-socialistic, non-Rydzyk centre right party, it will be extremely difficult, but If they make it, there's a chance to attract the missing 10%...
jkb - | 198    
9 Jun 2013  #13

Honestly, I doubt that 30% of PiS's electorate will suddenly stop supporting them, turn away from Rydzyk, Smoleńsk and the whole chiefdom that Kaczynski created and vote for PJN.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,196    
9 Jun 2013  #14

I know, the point is to take them away from... well, somewhere else...
delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #15

I'm looking forward to Wipler, non-political experts and possibly some PJN people creating a healthy, anti-socialistic, non-Rydzyk centre right party, it will be extremely difficult, but If they make it, there's a chance to attract the missing 10%...

But again, it's the same old problem - they would have to go into coalition with PiS, who are damaged goods. PiS by nature hate the idea of sharing power with anyone, so we'd just get the same old mess with Kaczynski falling out with them and trying to steal their electorate.

The real hope is in PiS abandoning the Rydzyk politics and becoming a genuine centre-left national-Catholic party. They need to stop pandering to the vocal minorities and remember how they won the 2005 election - by appealing to the centre ground. Yes, they'll lose 10% of their vote first time round, and yes, there'll probably be the rise of yet another nutter pseudo-Catholic group. But next time round, without Kaczynski and without the nutters, they'd have a very real chance of cleaning up.

I do think it's inevitable, the only question is whether Kaczynski would rather destroy the party than go quietly.

Do the nationalists have a chance of crossing the 5% threshold

No. Their electorate is also politically apathetic.

Polonius, what about their plan to create some sort of "paramilitary" wing?
jkb - | 198    
9 Jun 2013  #16

I know, the point is to take them away from... well, somewhere else...

The only other place they could possibly take their votes from is PO. Aside from that, I don't see anyone else. PSL? rather unlikely, and not much to take anyway... And I doubt a large amount of PO electorate will change their vote to ex-PiS or a party associated in any way with PiS.

the only question is whether Kaczynski would rather destroy the party than go quietly.

I don't see Kaczyński resigning on his own. Which means Poland will probably enjoy a PiS-free rule for a while.
Ironside 44 | 8,303    
9 Jun 2013  #17

they would have to go into coalition with PiS, who are damaged goods.

For somebody who is interested in politics you are displaying a little sense or knowledge.

here'll probably be the rise of yet another nutter pseudo-Catholic group.

You are nuttier if that is your understanding of politics in Poland.

I do think it's inevitable, the only question is whether Kaczynski would rather destroy the party than go quietly.

Why would he go quietly when it was his work and meeting with people around the country that improved PiS standing. Evidently in person he is nothing media say he is.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #18

For somebody who is interested in politics you are displaying a little sense or knowledge.

Ironside, as much as you are desperate to think otherwise, PiS are damaged goods in the eyes of the majority. How else can you explain their inability to improve beyond 30% in opinion polls despite being in opposition for 6 years?

You are nuttier if that is your understanding of politics in Poland.

Let's see : PiS in 2005 didn't use the rhetoric, nutter-pseudo-Catholic group wins seats. PiS in 2007 use nutter-pseudo-Catholic rhetoric, nutters don't win seats. Likewise in 2011.

Why would he go quietly when it was his work and meeting with people around the country that improved PiS standing. Evidently in person he is nothing media say he is.

Because if the party wants to have any chance of winning power, he has to go. It's pretty simple.

And I doubt a large amount of PO electorate will change their vote to ex-PiS or a party associated in any way with PiS.

Exactly. They're far more likely, as history shows, to vote for the SLD or RP. PiS keep making this fundamental mistake - they assume that upset PO voters will vote for them. The reality is that upset PO voters don't go near them.

I don't see Kaczyński resigning on his own. Which means Poland will probably enjoy a PiS-free rule for a while.

Pretty much. I thought he would have been ousted after the last defeat, but he clung on - but will the party really put up with yet another 4 years in opposition due to his utter inability to build consensus?
jkb - | 198    
9 Jun 2013  #19

I suggest ignoring Ironside altogether as he displays little sense of pretty much anything.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,555    
9 Jun 2013  #20

Komorowski's ex-commie flunky Nałęcz delivered a rare praise of PiS when he comparerd them to the National Movement.
The Ruch leaders used firebrand rhetoric on Saturday saying they planned to overthrow the roundtable and lewactwo (radical leftism). 'This is war. It's either either them or us!... We are a non-uniformed socio-political army that will bring order to Poland...', etc., etc., in that general vein.

delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #21

The Ruch leaders used firebrand rhetoric on Saturday saying they planned to overthrow the roundtable and lewactwo (radical leftism). 'This is war. It's either either them or us!... We are a non-uniformed socio-political army that will bring order to Poland...', etc., etc., in that general vein.

More traitors, then. Declaring war on the Republic of Poland by citizens of the Republic is nothing short of treason.

The idea of them "bringing order to Poland" sounds very much like the same kind of rhetoric used by a country to the west a few years ago. Fortunately, the political majority will make sure that they go nowhere.
Ironside 44 | 8,303    
9 Jun 2013  #22

Ironside, as much as you are desperate to think otherwise,

Not particularly.

, PiS are damaged goods in the eyes of the majority. How else can you explain their inability to improve beyond 30% in opinion polls despite being in opposition for 6 years?

They improved their polls and they have been able to build a coalition in Podkarpackie.

nutter-pseudo-Catholic group wins seats.

There is no such group. Your anti Catholic reflexes are not helping you much Delph.

Because if the party wants to have any chance of winning power, he has to go. It's pretty simple.

Quite the opposite I say.

Declaring war on the Republic of Poland by citizens of the Republic is nothing short of treason.

bring it on!

The idea of them "bringing order to Poland" sounds very much like the same kind of rhetoric used by a country to the west a few years ago.

Only for Stalinist and Soviets and they are not exactly nice people themselves.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #23

They improved their polls and they have been able to build a coalition in Podkarpackie.

Since when? The last news I had was that they had only managed to get their man as the Marshal, but that the Sejmik was still controlled by a PO-PSL-SLD coalition. Therefore, they're still in opposition there. Which is amusing, given that they're the biggest party by far there.

There is no such group. Your anti Catholic reflexes are not helping you much Delph.

Why are you trying to deny what everyone else accepts? Are you really trying to suggest that there is no fringe Rydzyk supporting faction within PiS and Polish politics that can be relied on for 5-10% of the national vote?

Quite the opposite I say.

The man has lost 14 elections and has lost at least 6 elections since 2007 (if not more, I lost track) - and you still think he's capable of winning?

I'm not sure if it's your long years outside Poland, but virtually anyone with half a brain can see that Kaczynski can't lead PiS to victory.

bring it on!

Says you, who resides outside Poland and who doesn't have to witness the trouble that such things cause. Strange that you'd support something that has direct parallels to Germany 1933, though.

Only for Stalinist and Soviets and they are not exactly nice people themselves.

And who defines "Stalinist" and "Soviets"?

Fortunately, Hoffman, mouthpiece of PiS, has made it clear that he regards them as a danger. He doesn't say anything without the approval of his boss, so therefore it can be safely assumed that PiS will push them to the sidelines.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,196    
9 Jun 2013  #24

but virtually anyone with half a brain can see that Kaczynski can't lead PiS to victory.

Dude, they are leading in the polls, your Kaczynskiphobia is becoming cartoonish.
Harry 79 | 13,413    
9 Jun 2013  #25

Dude, they are leading in the polls

Winning only 30% of the votes means that PiS lose the election. They would need at least 45% of the vote in order to be able to form a government.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #26

Dude, they are leading in the polls, your Kaczynskiphobia is becoming cartoonish.

What does that matter? I know you're absolutely salivating at the thought of PiS winning in the polls, but...it means nothing.

Winning only 30% of the votes means that PiS lose the election. They would need at least 45% of the vote in order to be able to form a government.

Which they're not going to get. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that any combination of PO/PSL/SLD/RP can simply agree on a supply/confidence deal to keep PiS out of Government.

PiS supporters really seem to struggle with how electoral mathematics work in Poland.
Ironside 44 | 8,303    
9 Jun 2013  #27

Why are you trying to deny what everyone else accepts?

Because I think for myself and do not think that dividing Catholics in Poland and dividing them into good, nice and nutters has any merit at all. After all they are all Catholics who may differ to the way but not as to aim.

The man has lost 14 elections and has lost at least 6 elections since 2007 (if not more, I lost track) - and you still think he's capable of winning?

Either he wins or not but if he goes so goes PiS.

Since when?

To prawdziwa sensacja. Prawo i Sprawiedliwość odzyskuje po niecałych trzech latach władzę na Podkarpaciu. Ortyl zdobył 17 głosów. Kandydat PSL Mariusz Kawa dostał 15 głosów.

Poland and who doesn't have to witness the trouble that such things cause.

You started it. If you want escalation maybe somebody should take closer look at you.You are using radical rhetorics is your intention is provocation?

And who defines "Stalinist" and "Soviets"?

They define themselves, unquestionable obedience towards authorities as long as those authorities are "ours". Emerying goes if is proposed by our people if not Soviets call it undemocratic or fascist.

Anti-religious and essentially anti-Catholics stance combined with progressiveness.
Any national moments is being compared to thugs, radical and fascist.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #28

Because I think for myself and do not think that dividing Catholics in Poland and dividing them into good, nice and nutters has any merit at all. After all they are all Catholics who may differ to the way but not as to aim.

It certainly has merit, because the vast majority of ordinary Catholics want nothing to do with those pseudo-Catholic nutters with their politics of hate. Quite a few Catholics I know vote for PO because they don't want anything to do with the language and politics of hatred.

Either he wins or not but if he goes so goes PiS.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. He is totally, completely unable to sacrifice himself for the sake of the party.

To prawdziwa sensacja. Prawo i Sprawiedliwość odzyskuje po niecałych trzech latach władzę na Podkarpaciu. Ortyl zdobył 17 głosów. Kandydat PSL Mariusz Kawa dostał 15 głosów.

Like I said, the Marshal election was won by PiS, but the Sejmik is still controlled by PO/PSL/SLD. They didn't build a coalition, they simply relied on the fact that the one independent and two other votes from whoever it was decided to vote for their man instead.

They define themselves, unquestionable obedience towards authorities as long as those authorities are "ours". Emerying goes if is proposed by our people if not Soviets call it undemocratic or fascist.

I don't know many people in Poland who have unquestionable obedience towards the authorities.

Anti-religious and essentially anti-Catholics stance combined with progressiveness.

Who defines what "anti-Catholic" is?

Any national moments is being compared to thugs, radical and fascist.

In other words, anyone who disagrees with them will be "dealt with".

Frightening.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,196    
9 Jun 2013  #29

Winning only 30% of the votes means that PiS lose the election.

Getting the largest support during elections means winning them, forming coalition is another thing, however your expatish certainty that they will not make it is amusing, you guys simply have no clue how politics here works, PSL is a *****, which can do it with anyone, even PiS-SLD is not impossible, we've seen here similar stunts before, what's most important, PO is clearly going down, majority of people either hate Tusk or simply laugh at the clown, even PO people start admitting it looks more and more like late days of AWS, a lot of people will not vote for PiS due to Rydzyk, Smoleńsk etc. but they will never again trust PO, there's a lot of space between two parties, It's a matter of time someone will make use of it.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,827    
9 Jun 2013  #30

Getting the largest support during elections means winning them,

Winning an election means getting your chosen man as Prime Minister. Getting the most seats doesn't count, as the I Sejm showed.

forming coalition is another thing

Which results in a loss for PiS due to their inability to build one at any level.

however your expatish certainty that they will not make it is amusing

What's amusing is that you were calling repeatedly that PO and Tusk will fall, yet they're still here.

you guys simply have no clue how politics here works

I think we all know how politics works in Poland. And that same mechanism means that if any other party supports PiS in an election, they will be punished by their own voters.

PSL is a *****, which can do it with anyone,

They won't risk offending their middle class electorate. Better to return Tusk as PM and support him on a confidence/supply basis only.

even PiS-SLD is not impossible

Not impossible? Well, apart from the fact that half of the party would quit rather than have anything to do with the SLD. Not to mention that the SLD aren't going to risk upsetting their core support with such a coalition.

we've seen here similar stunts before

No, we really haven't.

what's most important, PO is clearly going down, majority of people either hate Tusk or simply laugh at the clown

You've been saying that for years. What's really important is that PO isn't "clearly going down" at all - in fact, he is making sure that you and your type never, ever get near power again. It works for me.

even PO people start admitting it looks more and more like late days of AWS

You mean a handful of people who are allied to Gowin? Not exactly to be taken seriously.

a lot of people will not vote for PiS due to Rydzyk, Smoleńsk etc. but they will never again trust PO, there's a lot of space between two parties, It's a matter of time someone will make use of it.

There isn't anywhere near as much space as you think there is. The liberal members of PO can go to the SLD/RP, the Conservative members will stay within PO because they know they will get "punished" by a PiS government and so on.

Fortunately, people like you remind PO voters why they have to vote. Keep going.




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