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Nationalist-socialists gaining ground in Poland


jon357 71 | 20,403
28 Jul 2013 #1
An interesting article. Some obvious flaws but well worth reading to see the dangers that could lie ahead..

Something has changed in the political atmosphere in Poland. Frustration appears to be growing among Poles, especially those of the younger generation.
While 14 percent of Poles are unemployed, that figure rises to roughly 27 percent among people under the age of 25. What's worse, even when young people do find a job, their chances of receiving a proper, full-time job contract are slim. It is now the norm for companies to offer young employees temporary work contracts, which offer little social protection.

As a result, almost half of Poles aged 25-34 live with their parents, compared to the EU average of 28 percent. It is therefore hardly a surprise that the most popular party in Poland is currently Law and Justice (PiS), a nationalist party with a socialistic economic philosophy.

stratfor.com/other-voices/nationalist-socialists-gaining-ground-poland
p3undone 8 | 1,135
28 Jul 2013 #2
Interesting read.But I don't know enough about Poland to know how much of this is sensationalizing.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Jul 2013 #3
It is now the norm for companies to offer young employees temporary work contracts, which offer little social protection.

Yes, for a multitude of reasons. For instance -

- Young women are highly unlikely to get offered a real contract in a small company due to the impact if she falls pregnant. The law is hideously biased in favour of the woman, and the culture of going on 'sick leave' as soon as someone gets pregnant can do a huge amount of damage to a small company. Therefore, no-one is going to take the risk.

- proper work contracts have a hideous amount of allowances and protection for workers. The law is fine for those working in huge state-owned monoliths, but it simply doesn't work for those in the SME sector.

What's interesting is that Kaczynski seems to be very much following Putinism as a political model.
OP jon357 71 | 20,403
28 Jul 2013 #4
Three-quarter contracts are apparently gaining popularity. A way of dodging responsibilities.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Jul 2013 #5
I'm not surprised - the lack of flexibility that umowa o prace offers employers means that they need to find a way to minimise the damage should anything happen.
Nile 1 | 154
28 Jul 2013 #6
to see the dangers that could lie ahead..

What dangers? The government is apparently doing a lousy job if the economy is that bad. It is only natural that the opposition will take over the rein to tackle the problem.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Jul 2013 #7
It is only natural that the opposition will take over the rein to tackle the problem.

Except that the voters are showing a clear desire to keep the opposition out of power.

As for "tackle the problem", can you explain how a socialist party will tackle the problem of youth unemployment? It's simply not going to work - they won't do anything but spend money on job creation schemes.
OP jon357 71 | 20,403
28 Jul 2013 #8
Except that the voters are showing a clear desire to keep the opposition out of power.

And this is the case. The so-called 'opposition' though believe they have a right to rule.

It's simply not going to work - they won't do anything but spend money on job creation schemes.

They didn't before, and don't have any clear proposals now.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Jul 2013 #9
The so-called 'opposition' though believe they have a right to rule.

Indeed. What's scary is that they're already behaving as if power is guaranteed.

They didn't before, and don't have any clear proposals now.

They are actually quite stuck in this respect. They desperately need to appeal to businesses (and thus, relax the restrictive labour rules), but they can't do it while they're so cosy with the trade unions that hurt them more than help them. The general strike (if it happens) will damage their support, particularly among centrists who don't like to see a breakdown in social consensus.
Nile 1 | 154
28 Jul 2013 #10
Except that the voters are showing a clear desire to keep the opposition out of power

In that case the thread title should be changed into - much ado about nothing - and the article is misleading.

As for "tackle the problem", can you explain how a socialist party will tackle the problem of youth unemployment?

No, I cannot. I'm not that gifted. Why don't you ask the gifted one, it is his thread.
I assumed opposition is there for a reason and they have a different approach to the problem. If one approach doesn't work well it is prudent to try something else.
OP jon357 71 | 20,403
28 Jul 2013 #11
The general strike (if it happens) will damage their support, particularly among centrists who don't like to see a breakdown in social consensus.

Exacftly - and this is absolutely spot on about the dislike social conservatives have for protestors. By getting into bed with the remnant of Solidarity, clogging up the city centre with all their banners, they are alienating their other constituency. The same goes for the pseudo-patriots that Jaro like s to court.

Unfortunately for him, the uneducated neo-nationalists put everyone off and are great for galvanising opposition to PiS. Still, I suspect we'll see more of them before we see the last of them, especially if the PiSuarzy did get in and unemployment and corruption get even worse than they are now.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
28 Jul 2013 #12
An interesting article.

Provided that it is accurate, the article is just one more indication that all these rosy news about the booming Polish economy are nothing but hot air. The wave of emigrants that left Poland plus massive EU subsidies only eased and covered up the problems on the labor market. Bad news, but kind of expected. Hopefully, Poland won't be following in Spain's footsteps.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
28 Jul 2013 #13
Aren't PiS voters anti-Socialism? The ones I met a few years ago were always criticising the UK for allegedly being socialist and leftie.
milky 13 | 1,657
29 Jul 2013 #14
lol (as in Tony Benn or Micheal D Higgins)
I was waiting for someone to state this. PIS are a bunch of extreme catholic anti socialist right wingers. They are populist, no different to the loony boy in Hungary who believe parliments works fine without an opposition. PIS are just coming to power again as a reaction again the scam Neo-Liberalism that dictated everything in Poland since the fall of Stalinism.

All the talk from Duck boy about minumum wage etc is just populist jargon. The comparison with Putin is correct, and I assure you he aint no socialist either.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
29 Jul 2013 #15
Micheal D Higgins

A socialist on 200, 000 a year and that has his own speech writer on 65, 000. Not to mention the cost of all his advisors etc.

Crazy money.
Polishcoal
29 Jul 2013 #16
I am living in Ireland 15 years and to be honest with michael D it's great to see a man back in power.
Meathead 5 | 495
29 Jul 2013 #17
How has Poland avoided the recession with 13% unemployment? It looks to me they never got out of it (the Recession).
mafketis 34 | 12,243
29 Jul 2013 #18
It looks to me they never got out of it (the Recession).

It's all comparative, compared with Spain, Greece and Portugal (and maybe Hungary and some others) Poland is doing well.

Being in a recession is not fun excactly, but it beats the hell out of being plunged in a crisis (esp one with no possible exit) like Greece.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
29 Jul 2013 #19
How has Poland avoided the recession with 13% unemployment?

Because that 13% figure makes no allowance for those that are only registered unemployed to get health insurance while having a job under the table. All those people working in car parks and suchlike - do you really think they're working with proper contracts?
OP jon357 71 | 20,403
29 Jul 2013 #20
And half the people doing korepetycje, working in small shops and many other things.
mafketis 34 | 12,243
29 Jul 2013 #21
How has Poland avoided the recession with 13% unemployment?

It's also worth noting that while the US and UK calculate unemployment to have as small a figure as possible, they do the reverse in Poland, calculate it so that it's as large as possible (not their goal, but lots of employed people are officially unemployed because they don't have access to full social benefits.

Official figures don't say very much unless you know how they arrived at the figure.
smurf 39 | 1,981
29 Jul 2013 #22
I am living in Ireland 15 years and to be honest with michael D it's great to see a man back in power

What a load of BS, Robinson and McAleese were both fantastic statespersons, who carried out their roles as president to the full and exact letter of the law.

Both did wonderful things fro Ireland both at home and abroad.

Higgins only won because of the scandal that surrounded Sean Gallagher (which have been found to be totally unfounded) and David Norris and of course Martin McGuinness being a former leader of the IRA.

Plus, you may have lived in Ireland for 15 years, but to think that

it's great to see a man back in power

illustrates how little you know about the role of Irish president.

On topic, I would like to raise one thing, as I have in other threads, we get this figure of 13/14% bandied about a lot regarding unemployment, but I've shown on other forums that the real figure is actually far closer to between 5-8% that to 13%.

Just because the media report it as 13& doesn't mean a thing, don't forget that.
milky 13 | 1,657
29 Jul 2013 #23
What a load of BS, Robinson and McAleese were both fantastic statespersons, who carried out their roles as president to the full and exact letter of the law.

They were just wallpaper presidents. Especially McAleese closing her eyes to the madness of the Bertie years. did nothing to mitigate the extent of the hubris that preceded Ireland's fall from grace.

I am also aware that the president of Ireland has very little power to change the decisions of a government, no matter how marbled with the fat of vested interests they may be. The Irish head of state may only refuse to rubber stamp legislation passed on by the Dáil if he or she feels that the legislation or amendment is fundamentally unconstitutional. However, the president has a voice. And Mary McAleese failed to raise her voice amidst the maelstrom of greed and moral decrepitude that characterised the last 14 years of political life in Ireland. As head of state, McAleese was the sole voice which would be heard above the din of cash registers and the giddy laugh of bank managers. In this respect, she failed as the president of Ireland whose role it is to represent the state of Ireland, not only to other countries, but to ourselves. Instead of being a beacon of dignity and moral direction, in her silence she remained complicit with the Fianna Fáil government whose reputation has been so damaged by its inability to provide the Irish state with any form of responsible leadership.

Some of her last remarks as Uachtaráin na hEireann were telling. Asked what advice she had for the president in waiting, Michael D. Higgins, a man whose voice has always been raised for basic human dignity and equality, McAleese sagely suggested that Michael D. should enjoy himself. Perhaps, if Mrs. McAleese stopped enjoying herself and considered the gravity of her position as the leader of a state, we might not be stuck so firmly in economic quicksand. That, however, is merely conjecture on my part. What is certain is that I would be much happier to praise our former president as a success if she had not been so pathetically quiet as Fianna Fáil ****** away our exchequer, a silence which renders her as complicit as every other Fianna Fáil politician who clung gamely on until the very end, but for whom time eventually ran out as the Irish public woke up to its sickening regime of greed, corruption, vested interests and moral blindness. A failed regime of which she was, and remains to be, the symbolic leader.

Higgins only won because of the scandal that surrounded Sean Gallagher (which have been found to be totally unfounded)

The man is a FF man/ gombeen man. Micheal D is without doubt our greatest president.

On topic, I would like to raise one thing, as I have in other threads, we get this figure of 13/14% bandied about a lot regarding unemployment, but I've shown on other forums that the real figure is actually far closer to between 5-8% that to 13%.

its over 14% and in reality much higher

The in-work poverty rate in Poland is one of the highest in the EU. ... January 2012 from PLN 1386 (€330 as of 17 April 2012) to PLN 1500 (€357), ...
In Poland, the in-work poverty rate among those with the lowest educational attainment is the highest but one in the EU (outdistanced only by Romania) and amounts to around 28%; it drops to around 12% among those with a medium level of educational attainment (Figure 2).

The in-work poverty rate in Poland is also above the EU average for:

families with children (around 14% against the EU average of 10%);
two or more adults with children (nearly 15% against the EU average of 10%).

eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/2012/02/PL1202019I.htm
eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/studies/tn0910026s/pl0910029q.htm

All those people working in car parks and suchlike - do you really think they're working with proper contracts?

What about all those people with their mixers in Ireland and England. Just look at the cement dust on their shoes as they Collect there 200 Euro a week dole and 15-20 euro an hour with their behind the scenes construction work. Compared to the guy in Poland working in a station, getting (in the hand)less than 2 euro an hour . What's the dole in Poland ? 30 euro a week..?? The two combined wouldn't pay for the rent of a one bedroom apartment. I've seen guys driving to the dole office in Ireland in their brand new jeeps.

How has Poland avoided the recession with 13% unemployment? It looks to me they never got out of it (the Recession).

exactly, the neoliberal's are great a painting over reality as they plunder.
smurf 39 | 1,981
29 Jul 2013 #24
only refuse to rubber stamp legislation passed on by the Dáil

Which she and Robinson did more times that any presidents before them. They had more balls than any president that came before them.

Instead of being a beacon of dignity and moral direction, in her silence she remained complicit with the Fianna Fáil government whose reputation has been so damaged by its inability to provide the Irish state with any form of responsible leadership.

I'm not sure you really know what being President of Ireland entails, they are free of course to comment on issues, but like you said, they really

only refuse to rubber stamp legislation passed on by the Dáil

once they deem it to be constitutional. With Robinson & McAleese both coming from a legal background it makes far more sense to have somebody with real legal knowledge holding the office.

The man is a FF man/ gombeen man

Nonsense, Gallagher was hung out to dry based on a complete fabrication (delivered to an RTE chat show - since found to have been planted by a Sinn Feiner). I wouldn't have voted for him, but he had the same right to stand for election as anyone else....even Dana ;)

Micheal D is without doubt our greatest president.

We'll see. He seems like a nice enough man, but he'd be better off not gettin involved in political proceedings. For the good of the state and the people of Ireland he must remain impartial. That's actually his job. He must be seen as removed from politics so that when he's required to sign a bill into law he can do it without emotion and with absolute objectivity. If he deems something is not constitutional then he must refer it to the Supreme Court under Article 26. Of course he is free to comment on issues, but so long as he carries out his job objectively and constitutionally then I've no problem with him.

Robinson & McAleese did this more than any president before them, thus fulfilling their job descriptions to the letter. Off the top of my head, I think Robinson stopped 5 bills and McAleese stopped 7. But don't quote me on that though, but I seem to remember those were the figures.

mixers

you mean nixers, surely?
I don't see what people in Ireland & the UK having nixers has to do with the Polish economy.

Compared to the guy in Poland

Dole in Ireland & UK is for as long as you are 'actively' looking for a job. That's not the case in Poland. AFAIK, they'll take it off you after a certain amount of time.

But like I say this 13% includes these people on nixers, so the real figure is far closer to between 5-8%.
The recession never came to Poland, Poland's economy wasn't strong enough for it to be affected by it and it still continues to grow marginally every year. Slowly but surely yet quite cautiously. IMO, the proper way for Poland. For other countries it would be a different story of course, but for an emerging country like Poland, let's not forget, less than 25 years ago this place was communist. To transition from that way of thinking to the capitalist one takes a long time.....unless you really want to mess things up and do it quickly and end up like Russia in the mid-late 90s? I don't think anyone wants that.


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