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"It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland)


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,741
Yet PiS say nothing about it, and you have to ask yourself why.

Chickens! :)

They see "Mutti" Merkel and think they can wrangle some more monies from her...the nice, polite woman she is. Attacking her and with her Germany costs Poland nothing! As it is beneath her to treat Poland likewise back. She will keep to the treaties no matter what.

They see Putin and don't even dare!
Spike31 1 | 378    
3 Nov 2018  #1,742
Our friend here seems remarkably unwilling to discuss the issue of Poland getting repatriations from Russia

Why not? I can discuss those too. Still, German reparations are much more substantial and are ready to harvest.

With a German chancellor letting 2 million muslim illegals into Germany, with a 4 million Turkish minority living in Germany who are more loyal to Erdogan than to Bundesrepublik it would be unwise not to press this issue now.

Cause Tacitus is right on this matter: Germany will soon become muslim, so we have to deal with this issue when the actual Krauts are still alive :-)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,743
the whole thing is a very clumsy attempt to blackmail Germany ahead of the next budget negotiations.

Especially in the wake of the Brexit. Less net-payer means either the few left pay a bigger share or the funds are revisited and reduced. Which would mean some billions less for Poland...

To annoy Germany is really not the smartest way to go about it...I wonder how the successor of Merkel will handle that...if he/she is as nice and polite as Merkel...
dolnoslask 5 | 2,183    
3 Nov 2018  #1,744
funds are revisited

Germany can afford to take up the slack, that would be a great gesture and would strengthen the bonds between her closest neighbours, we in Poland would be very happy.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,745
Germany can afford to take up the slack,

Depends on the political will....especially if it goes into the so called newer members. It's hard to explain it to a German why he should pay more for PiS Poland or Orban's Hungary...when they are confronted with the likes of reparations and accusations.

Their anti-german rethoric might come good at home...but it's rather a kind of "biting the hand thats feeding him". Not smart!

Would I want to pay some more Tax-Euro for some Dolno? For sure! :)

Would I want to pay some more for some Spike? Ermm....rather not! :(
dolnoslask 5 | 2,183    
3 Nov 2018  #1,746
Tax-Euro for some Dolno? For sure!

Ahh thats nice Dolno would also pay some tax money for Bratwurst, but Dolno doesn't work anymore and Brexit has ruined what could have been something really great.

All this Polish reparation stuff is all about posturing over court judges and migrants, everyone will back down in the end and we can sit down in Gorlitz next summer and enjoy the food weather and good life, and we can talk about Britain and how great a country it once was before brexit, maybe we could organise a collection for food parcels.

Spikes ok I think, just a bit spikey, I'm sure he would join us for dinner, Dolno will pay out of his British pension fund (If it survives post Brexit), if not the tabs on you guys.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
3 Nov 2018  #1,747
Nah...from that Steakhouse over the street...mjammi!
Ironside 47 | 9,251    
4 Nov 2018  #1,748
Germany waved the claim to its' former territories in the same treaties that included Polish demands for reparations.

Hmm...so you're telling me that the post-commie government in Poland waved away Poland's right to reparation in exchange for ....nothing?
As we established above German state has no legal base for any territorial claims whatsoever. So what claim exactly Germany waved? Seems to me it was a one sided treaty. yuck!

By the way. war reparations have nothing to do with annexation of the land. You keep mixing those two together.

Anyhow, compensation Poland talk about is about loss and damage to property beside loses inflicted in a course of combat - like torching whole villages or small towns or destruction of Warsaw. 60% had been demolished by the Germans while there was no combat-whatsoever.

aha, not long ago Germany paid compensation to some hamlet in Italy where they executed few people during the war. Hey, Germany never paid to Poland for the countless instances of such action? What that even mean?

they know it, that's why they don't.

No, it is because this government is all talk and bluster but no action. Amway they still can sue so don't get your hopes high.

Yet PiS say nothing about it, and you have to ask yourself why.

Well, Russia supped to pay about 20 millions in gold to Poland after the Polish-soviet war in 1920. They never did, so it is kind of pointless to sue them if you are actually after money.

I would say that Poland should sue them regardless for everything since 1939 and for unpaid dues plus interest. This gas they send (to Germany for exmaple) should be confiscated as a down payment.

.but it's rather a kind of "biting the hand thats feeding him". Not smart!

What is not smart? leaving in a delusional world where Germany are footed with all the bills and have no gain whatso ever, poor hard working Germans that are so generous and selfless that they are more saints than people! ALL others in the EU are doing nothing but piggyback riding Germany - lazy gits.

Hey maybe you talk about Ossie- no my flies no my problem.

If you talk about Poland - lay off with your nonsense BB. Do better next time. No more ignorant rants - do we have a deal?

By the way - if you keep patting yourself on the shoulders so hard you my injure your arm that you need to work harder to pay off that compsestacion that is due to Poland.(after all OssieS paid null)Unless that WAS you plan all along you bloody saboteur.
Marek_Cz - | 5    
4 Nov 2018  #1,749
Germany is down because insulted Svetovid. That is why Germanics losing power. Svetovid is powerful God.

Hey, is this guy for real?

the surest way to end a debate is by throwing God into it.

It sounds blasphemous associating a pagan demigod with Christianity, but Ill regress.........

Socialism/communism is not what the majority of Polish people want in their country - the Poles fought for decades to get rid of that system

The Democrats in America are trying to force this down our throats, its like everything our forefathers fought for means nothing do them. I can't see Poland ever falling for that way of life ever again. Unfortunately, in the uSA too many morons are allowed to vote.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
4 Nov 2018  #1,750
so you're telling me that the post-commie government in Poland waved away Poland's right to reparation in exchange for ....nothing?

Not for nothing. During the negotiations for German Reunification, the Polish government created a lot of smoke over the border issue. More specifically they wanted an assurance that a reunited Germany would forfeit its claims to former Germany territories. Previously only the FRG and GDR had done so 1953 and 1970 for their states. The Polish government was very insistent and almost derailed the entire negotiations, but in the end a solution was found. A reunited Germany confirmed the border and solved the reparation issue permanently.

Again, all the Polish government wanted was the border confirmed and accepted that the reparations would be ruled out. The PM of Poland told that Kohl in one of his phone calls. There are good books written about the entire negotiations that explain this in a lot of detail. And as side note, some of the historians I have read (quite a few British and French one) have noted that the Polish government has played their cards rather poorly in this one. There was never any chance for a border change back then, but their insistence (fuelled bythe Polish Domestic press) on it made them wave their last chance for reparations.

You keep mixing those two together.

Those were linked from the very beginning. Poland always wanted the existing borders confirmed (because the Potsdam Protocol was not a permanent settlement) and they always treated the reparation issue as bargaining chip. Which was fine, because Germany did the same with the border question.

They are also linked today. Because when the Polish government claims that those treaties over the border and reparation were not final, they also obviously put the legal status of Western Poland in doubt.
Ironside 47 | 9,251    
4 Nov 2018  #1,751
Not for nothing

what do you mean? Post-commie government in Poland wanted some assurances, I don't deny it. All I'm saying that those assurances were worthless. After all we all agree that the post-war German state has no legal claims to any territories. IF we all (as we do) agree with this fact it means that those assurances given to post-commie Polish government by Kohl was an empty gesture - so in my words - nothing.

In exchange for a real concession. That is all I'm saying.

Those were linked from the very beginning.

Nah, they have been linked except in commie propaganda.

when the Polish government claims that those treaties over the border and reparation were not final, they also obviously put the legal status of Western Poland in doub

No in any way. Those are not connected expect in the mindset of some post-commie dopes.
Germany has no territorial claims, no legal or no practical whatsoever and will not have them in the foreseeable future. IF the Polish gov sue for compensation this border question will not play any role. Unless Germany thinks it can play this phony card again.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
4 Nov 2018  #1,752
Germany has no territorial claims,

Because it waved those claims in treaties that solved the reparation issue, yes. Just like Germany has no legal claim to its' former territories, so does Poland not have any claims to reparations.

We had this discussion before and it is not really fruitful if I have to explain all the basics to you over and over again. You clearly seem interested in this issue, so I would recommend reading some literature about it. Numerous books have been published about the Oder-Neisse-Line and how the German and Polish government negotiated about it. A book that explains it quite well is this:

Allen, Debra J. (2003). The Oder-Neisse line: the United States, Poland, and Germany in the Cold War.

After all we all agree that the post-war German state has no legal claims to any territories.

This is wrong. The former Eastern Territories belonged legally to Germany until it accepted the loss of it in those treaties. That is basic international law. The Potsdam Agreement was not a permanent border settlement (which is stated in the text itself) so for a permanent solution, Germany would have to agree to the border.

Something the Polish people were very nervous about until 1990/91. That nervosity was unfounded of course, something everybody pointed out to them. But they still insisted on it. Their chose, and Poland has to live with it.

nothing

Nothing perhaps to you. But not to the Polish people and politicians in 1989/90 who pestered the 4 occupational powers and Germany to finalize the border before reunification took place. They were willing to wave their reparation claims as a consequence, and this they did. No need to feel angry about it though. The reason why you do not consider the border in any way threatened is because of those agreements. So they worked as they should.
Ironside 47 | 9,251    
4 Nov 2018  #1,753
Because it waved those claims in treaties that solved the reparation issue, yes.

No, because:

Reich was occupied and ceased to exist legally in 1945, and the Allies were consistent in the fact that the German Reich had ceased to exist

mafketis 16 | 6,290    
4 Nov 2018  #1,754
They were willing to wave their reparation claims as a consequence

Poland received some of the best German lands in lieu of monetary reparations, stamping their feet now and wanting more makes the country look like a bad faith bargainer.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,183    
4 Nov 2018  #1,755
Poland received some of the best German lands in lieu

Yeah and some of Poland's best lands were taken in the east, mine included, so I can't see how your arguments holds water.

If Germany had not started the war then none of the loss of Polish life land and destruction of whole cities would have occurred.

I live in as you call it the best German land, but I had to pay cash for it, my family has not had a penny for loss of life, incarnation in labour camps or the loss of our land in the east all due to Germany's invasion.

Do I want any cash from Germany .. NO I want peace and friendship with the German people, do I want German politicians to keep their noses out of Polish politics, Yes please.

Many of us are still wary of Germany, I hope this changes over time.

The reparations thing will die down as soon as German politicians learn to keep their noses out of Polish politics.

German people are fine no problem.
Spike31 1 | 378    
4 Nov 2018  #1,756
The PM of Poland told that Kohl in one of his phone calls.

That's a hard evidence all right. Last week some loony beggar in front of Tesco told me that the world is ending, but it wasn't over the phone so it was still more official.

Now let's get serious:

I want to see official documents with signatures of both: Polish and German officials with clearly written black in white that Poland has waved away any claims for reparations.

The Bierut's "declaration" from 1953 it's just a piece of paper without much legal weight. And it's only signed by Bierut, no one else.

In 1951 Vyacheslav Molotov (yes, the same one who signed a secret treaty with von Ribbentrop before WWII) met with Otto Grotewohl (DDR minister)
and they made a declaration. Here me now: the declaration was made only between the USSR and DDR, that is EAST Germany.

West Germany wasn't even included nor a an official part in those talks. And the DDR has officially and legally ceased to exist in 1990.

So not only the USSR had war reparation talks over our heads (Poland wasn't part of it) but they made a "deal" with East Germany ONLY!

So the only viable legal grounds of German defense against paying war reparations is a 1990 "Treaty of Good Neighbourship" between Poland and Germany.

Show me one sentence in this treaty which says anything about resignation from war reparations by Poland.


delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
4 Nov 2018  #1,757
with clearly written black in white that Poland has waved away any claims for reparations.

What part of "The Federal Republic of Germany is not the successor state to the German Reich" are you struggling to comprehend?

Until you provide proof that the Federal Republic is in fact the successor state (despite Postdam, the 2+4 Agreement and the ECHR judgement), any demands are just that, demands.

You can have repatriations as soon as you provide evidence of the Federal Republic being recognised as a successor state. Until then, time to shut up.
mafketis 16 | 6,290    
4 Nov 2018  #1,758
Federal Republic of Germany is not the successor state to the German Reich

Then on what basis were damages to individuals paid?
Ironside 47 | 9,251    
4 Nov 2018  #1,759
Poland received some of the best German lands in lieu of monetary reparations,

hmm can you back it up? Somehow I don't see connection you making. Land annexation has nothing to do with reparation and never had.

Are you saying that Poland should get it land back in the east? A good idea. If Germany with their traditionally good relation with Ukraine and Russia *( their are good, I tell you) could somehow ensure it would happen I would have waved any reparation or some such, I would, a pinky promise.

No need to feel angry about it though.

I'm not the leftist I do not get angry in debate. I think that a stupid post-commie government make some kind of crappy bargain. German in NATO with American troops on their soil are and were not any kind of a military threat to anyone.
Tacitus 1 | 765    
4 Nov 2018  #1,760
I think that a stupid post-commie government make some kind of crappy bargain.

They did this with the full public support of the Polish people. Personally I do not believe that it was a crappy bargain, though Poland should have done it without provocing so much internationsl irritation. War reparations were never a realistic possibility. Keep in mind that Germams expelled in the East were still s relatively large part of the voters back then. Agreeing to the border was still somewhat risky for Kohl. No chancellor could have agreed to paying reparations and the Polish government knew this. Which is why they did not defend it.
Spike31 1 | 378    
4 Nov 2018  #1,761
They did this with the full public support of the Polish people.

I want to see an official document where Poland wave away any reparation claims from Germany.

Produce me a photocopy of such a document. It should be easy since, in your opinion, it's a clear case.

I want to see official papers with signatures of both: Polish and German officials (from DDR and especially West Germany) and clearly written black on white that Poland has waved away any claims for reparations from Germany for WWII.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Nov 2018  #1,762
No, it is because this government is all talk and bluster but no action.

When even anti-german PiS is "all talk and bluster but no action" than you should ask yourself why that is. Wouldn't they rather have long "acted" if they knew they had any chance of success? That their claims had any legal basis? Even the smallest one?

Or do they just "blustering" because they KNOW it's all crap?

For me the answer is totally clear...and hence the outcome.

Interesting info from a Pole, starting with the Potsdam conference till today:

ppd.pism.pl/Numery/4-71-2017/Poland-and-Germany-Reparations-Stanislaw-Zerko
Spike31 1 | 378    
4 Nov 2018  #1,763
No, it is because this government is all talk and bluster but no action.

You're confusing a lengthy process of collecting necessary documents and analysis [and also calculations of war loses] which takes place now with "no action"

And also a recent consultations with Greek government which has more experience in this matter will be very helpful.

dw.com/en/poland-greece-team-up-on-nazi-era-war-reparations-demands/a-45836168

And I also repeat my request:

I want to see an official document where Poland wave away any reparation claims from Germany.

Produce me a photocopy of such a document. It should be easy since, in your opinion, it's a clear case.

I want to see official papers with signatures of both: Polish and German officials (from DDR and especially West Germany) and clearly written black on white that Poland has waved away any claims for reparations from Germany for WWII.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Nov 2018  #1,764
You're confusing a lengthy process of collecting necessary documents and analysis [and also calculations of war loses]

Well....it doesn't takes place exactly "KNOW"...but is a rethoric staple by PiS since 2006...remember Anna Fotyga?

Produce me a photocopy of such a document.

You want something, you go and produce...it should be easy since, in your opinion, it's a clear case!

...damn typos... It should be "NOW" of course....not "know"...
Lyzko 18 | 5,303    
4 Nov 2018  #1,765
Don't count your chickens before they've hatched, Maf ol' fella!

Yesterday's dream/phantasy became today's reality. Take the light bulb. People thought it was crazy, but how crazy was it when all of a sudden by the mid 1880's

New York became electrified and all of a sudden total darkness was lifted off the face of the earth forever. Or the telephone.

No, friend. Merkel's simply misguided in her execution, not in her desire.
mafketis 16 | 6,290    
4 Nov 2018  #1,766
Merkel's simply misguided in her execution, not in her desire.

What's her desire to eliminate cultural and language and religious differences? I don't like that, do you?

This is the "liberal imperialism" described by Hazony: "Dogmatic and utopian, it assumes that the final truths concerning mankind's fate have long since been discovered, and that all that remains is a way to impose them"
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,327    
4 Nov 2018  #1,767
What's her desire to eliminate cultural and language and religious differences? I don't like that, do you?

I doubt that is her desire nor in her power...

But I really think the future global world will be abit like the US...lotsa different cultures and languages and religious differences still be able to live side by side under one government with the same set of civil rights and laws for all.

I don't think that's imperialism but a kind of necessity and logical consequence of centuries old developments...starting with tribes, then federadion of tribes, then nation states, then unions of nation states...
mafketis 16 | 6,290    
4 Nov 2018  #1,768
lotsa different cultures and languages and religious differences

The thing is that.... you don't much get that. There is one language of public policy and religious variety is kept out of the public sphere and cultural practices also have to be channeled within a range of acceptable variation. It's not a monoculture but it's not muliticulturalism either in any real sense (and to the extent that it's starting to become multicultural the same sort of conflicts as plague Europe appear).

At one time the US could take people of any linguistic racial or religious background and turn them into Americans within a couple of generations (with a few bumps along the way), but those days are over and you shouldn't think you're getting the old US model when you'll be getting the newer Balkanized one.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,875    
4 Nov 2018  #1,770
I doubt that is her desire nor in her power...

Are you kidding me? She despised the idea of Germany as a sovereign state. She won't even hold the German flag!


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