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Poland and Kresy being reunited?


Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #31
It is simple

is not that simple - I have been cheated from my inheritance this way.

, why stop there? What is the criteria?

well, criteria is specific for specific case, there cannot be general rule - except justice!

and weak people like to think of themselves as heroes based on what their countrymen achieved in the past.

weak people are not the problem.
Everyone needs example - and what better example than countryman? Don't you in States do glorify and cherish WWII HEROES, whereas the truth is that only few were real heroes !?

Of course it does, because it addresses the reality of what is on the table here.

It does not!
We are discussing topic here!
The topic is not - practical steps to regain lost land !
We are talking about principle and right, not about the means and the ways !
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #32
Right, and weak people like to think of themselves as heroes based on what their countrymen achieved in the past.

Who thinks of himself as a hero here?

So nothing was actually stolen from you I take it? You're trying to right some historical wrong? I think a big problem is this "we" mentality.

The big problem is you not being Polish or not understand Poles, whenever truly deep national issues arose it was alway us, never me.

Note i dont agree with Ironside, Lwów is historically ours, Kresy are historically ours, they've been stolen from us by Russia and given to a poor barely formed nation of people who trample our heritage in jealousy of not having their own to match ours.

We Convex whether you like it or not are a proud nation, our blood and our people achieved as much if not more then our neighbours, we saved Europe on the battlefields of Vienna and Warsaw, we provided haven to the opressed for centuries, we built cities and schools where previously there has been nothing but forests and a bunch of ruthenian villagers.

We, the Poles. Its fully justified that an average Pole is proud, we're all part of something that bore great fruits for centuries and even when brought down refused to stay down, polish nation and polish history and being part of it is something to be proud of.

That said i dont agree with Ironside, taking peoples homes is not the way to do it, i hate Jews with my guts for their creation of Israel i couldnt stand my own people taking homes and lands, besides Ukraine is likely to collapse anyway so in the future its possible to achieve much peacefully.
convex 20 | 3,980
27 Jul 2010  #33
is not that simple - I have been cheated from my inheritance this way.

Your ancestors didn't fight hard enough to keep it. Just like the Jews didn't fight hard enough to keep their property.

weak people are not the problem.

The problem is when people start identifying with heroic deeds and somehow get the idea that they are heroic.

Topic is taking over land on which people have made their homes for years. That's what the topic is. Speaking about the justification for doing is one thing, but it doesn't really make much sense without looking at it from a practical side.

well, criteria is specific for specific case, there cannot be general rule - except justice!

Justice is objective and Poland doesn't have a large enough stick to promote its own idea of justice.

we saved Europe on the battlefields of Vienna and Warsaw, we provided haven to the opressed for centuries

You didn't do anything. You have the identification again of "our blood" and "we saved Europe", but you didn't do anything. You've shed no blood, didn't start any revolution, never saved an ally in need.

That's the problem I have in hearing something like that. It would be like me going and somehow taking credit for "saving" Britain.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #34
Your ancestors didn't fight hard enough to keep it. Just like the Jews didn't fight hard enough to keep their property.

Insourmountable odds, courage and valor can only carry you as far.

The problem is when people start identifying with heroic deeds and somehow get the idea that they are heroic.

Got that impression from any polish poster?

Justice is objective and Poland doesn't have a large enough stick to promote its own idea of justice.

It does as far as Ukraine is concerned but its not beneficial in the long run and even if it was its still kicking people out of their homes on principle of them being historically ours, at that point i say f*ck the principles.

You didn't do anything. You have the identification again of "our blood" and "we saved Europe"

We = the Poles Me = Polish.

When i'm saying we i mean my nation that i'm a part of, i'm not asking or expecting credit for my ancestors deeds but they were Poles and so am i and because such people were Polish in the past im proud to be Polish today, get that huge stick out of your ass and stop trying to interpret everything your way.
convex 20 | 3,980
27 Jul 2010  #35
Insourmountable odds, courage and valor can only carry you as far.

Indeed. But the spoils don't go to the courageous ones, they go to the guy that is left standing at the end of the day. That happened to have been the Russians.

Got that impression from any polish poster?

Absolutely. When the term "we" is used. As in, "we" saved Europe.

It does as far as Ukraine is concerned but its not beneficial in the long run

Exactly. It's settled, and there are plenty of ways for Poland to improve its situation on the patch of ground that it's found itself on. Gotta get that up and going first.

but they were Poles and so am i and because such people were Polish in the past im proud to be Polish today

I guess they were Europeans too, so I can identify with them too. I probably had a couple of ancestors involved. Yea, we saved Europe! Glad we can agree on that.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #36
Indeed. But the spoils don't go to the courageous ones, they go to the guy that is left standing at the end of the day. That happened to have been the Russians.

Which still doesnt change the fact that they stole our land, might does not make right.

Absolutely. When the term "we" is used. As in, "we" saved Europe.

Thats because of that huge stick on your ass that interrupts the process of logical thinking, we = the Poles, not them Poles because im Polish too, it wasnt Martians, jellyfish cyborgs from planet Zog it was a bunch of guys connected to me by ethnicity, religion and nation so its a "we".

I guess they were Europeans too, so I can identify with them too. I probably had a couple of ancestors involved. Yea, we saved Europe! Glad we can agree on that.

Distinct groups buddy, Europeans are not a distinct group and at the time discussed different european countries were essentially different planets.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #37
Your ancestors didn't fight hard enough to keep it.

Well, easy to say for someone from USA.

The problem is when people start identifying with heroic deeds and somehow get the idea that they are heroic.

well, what is has to do with anything ?

doesn't really make much sense without looking at it from a practical side.

If you are that interested, make the thread - Practical steps .........- you know the routine!

Speaking about the justification for doing is one thing

That what I'm doing .....

Justice is objective and Poland doesn't have a large enough stick to promote its own idea of justice.

time to start craving our own stick !Because others sticks miraculously are self-centred.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #38
I'm all for that but explain to me how exactly do you imagine taking over Ukraine.

Lets go out on the limb and say we strike a deal with Russia and topple ukrainian economy then move in to take whats historically ours.

What then? Do you actually kick people out of their homes? Do you shoot them? Because Ukrainians sure as hell would take to the streets in protest, you're postulating destroying milions of lives for the sake of historical sentiment, i'd love Lwów back, its f*cking ours, our grandfathers built it into an awesome city thats being changed into a dump but there's people who made their lives there for 3 generations now.

What are we, Jews? Since when did we historically steal peoples lands?
convex 20 | 3,980
27 Jul 2010  #39
If you are that interested, make the thread - Practical steps .........- you know the routine!

Read the title. It doesn't have to be a group spank fest.

Well, easy to say for someone from USA.

Not following here how that's relevant, but ok.

Which still doesnt change the fact that they stole our land, might does not make right.

Will you be giving back stolen land? How long do you have to be in possession of land before it becomes yours for eternity? Curious.

Thats because of that huge stick on your ass that interrupts the process of logical thinking, we = the Poles, not them Poles because im Polish too, it wasnt Martians, jellyfish cyborgs from planet Zog it was a bunch of guys connected to me by ethnicity, religion and nation so its a "we".

Ok, the stick has been removed. Now I get what you were you, ah yes ancestors. So with my little tiny Polish lineage, I'll go ahead and share your "we" sentiments. There is quite a bit of pride welling up in me right now actually. I mean, we saved Europe! Your ancestors, and my ancestors, we saved Europe!

Since when did we historically steal peoples lands?

Exactly, make money, increase the quality of life at home. Poles are better than that, or? No reason to whine about the past and moan about injustices. Everyone is on even ground now...
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #40
So with my little tiny Polish lineage, I'll go ahead and share your "we" sentiments.

Yeah its little and you're not one bit Polish but hey go for it, pride in your nations achievements is what i can relate to, we're not exactly your nation i think but who am i to tell you that:)))

Will you be giving back stolen land?

Any land taken by force from a coherent political and social entity is stolen from them, your philosophy promotes theft, annexation, its exactly the kind of spineless vile justifications that allowed Poland to be partitioned or Israel to be created on Palestinian lands.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #41
Do you actually kick people out of their homes?

First of all there large group of Poles who have rights to homes, land and so on - of course they should get it back ! Eviction then. The same goes for re-privatisation in Poland!

Than inhabitants of said land would be given six months to apply for polish citizenship, they would remain as a residents.
Those who would have failed to do that - should be moved outside Polish borders!

Sorry, there no other way, nowadays situation is not result of the natural process.
It was social engineering on the grand scale done by Stalin to ensure that Poland will not gain independence never again.
To reverse it hash measures are necessary.
What if you don't?
Well, Poland in 1918 didn't pursued borders from 1772, as a result even borders from 1921 were denied. What happens next - someone will question today's borders (some Ukrainian already do)!

There only one course of action Poland must become power to be reckoned with and be really independent.
To do so, Poland need to tidy up her internal affairs !
The question of Kresy is just one issue from many but also significant one and the most difficult - but it must be done,one day!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,014
27 Jul 2010  #42
I'm all for that but explain to me how exactly do you imagine taking over Ukraine.

It seem we both ultra-nationalists are the lone sane people left here...

I never thought I would have to throw Iron into the same nutter bin as Crow!
You know that your whole plan would lead to Poland destroyed, isolated and occupied?
You would lose more than you have now, you would throw the future you are building now...but who knows Germany might get a chunk of western Poland back when you are down and out after your failed adventure! ;)

And the image of Poland world wide would change from the brave and plucky to the agressive and greedy! With no sympathies anymore whatsoever. The winner would be poor Ukraine!

They wouldn't even need to fight just to cry for help to NATO and EU.
They for sure will get a chunk out of loser Poland. That's the rules...ask Germany, ask Serbia!

I hope the polish patriots and nationalists who really care for their countries well being will prevail!

A better, more logical and successfull plan (even if it will take another generation or two) would be to drag the Ukraine in the EU, invest heavily, be done with the borders...that way it can grow together again what belongs together, peacefully and the the people might even say "Thank you!"
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #43
(even if it will take another generation or two)

I have not set timetable here BB!

to drag the Ukraine in the EU, invest heavily, be done with the borders...

Problem is Germany is already doing just that, and Poland is not independent country but German dependent!

And the image of Poland world wide would change from the brave and plucky to the agressive and greedy! With no sympathies anymore whatsoever. The winner would be poor Ukraine!

Its all depend on circumstances and a ways !
As your plan to bring Ukraine into EU and NATO there is Russia ....
To hold to Poland you had to strike some deal with Russia, do you imagine that Ukraine question could be solved without Russia participation ?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445
27 Jul 2010  #44
To do so, Poland need to tidy up her internal affairs !

build safe roads first.

First of all there large group of Poles who have rights to homes, land and so on -

they legally don't, unless I am misinformed.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #45
First of all there large group of Poles who have rights to homes, land and so on

Yeah maybe around 25% maybe, the region is inhabited by several milion people.

of course they should get it back !

Ok i want you to say it mister, you would personally order loading ukrainian familes onto trucks and having them dumped in the field with all their personal belongings? "They should get it back?" you'd do to them the exact same thing that was done to us?

Than inhabitants of said land would be given six months to apply for polish citizenship, they would remain as a residents.
Those who would have failed to do that - should be moved outside Polish borders!

To starve? Freeze? What of their property? Dropping the epic immorality of that where will you get people to resettle the region from?

You'd need milions, literally like 2-3 millions people at least where will you get them from?

Sorry, there no other way, nowadays situation is not result of the natural process.

Neither is Poland having Lower Silesia, neither is Russia having Kaliningrad but all those shifts would mean destruction of milions of lives, i love Poland as much as i love my family or my sexbot of a girl but you're proposing we do to others exactly the same stuff that we experienced and you see nothing wrong in it because the place was ours half a century ago? Thats messed up Iron.

To reverse it hash measures are necessary.

Ah now its clear, the difference between me and you is that i've been around, i've seen harsh measures, you're a bastard who lives in his comfy armchair and talks about harsh measures.

Our people were subject to "harsh measures" for over a f*cking century dude, have at least some decency not to propose we do the same to others, yes they're f*cking little fascists who live in what used to be our cities but they're ultimately people, they dont deserve cattle trains.

The question of Kresy is just one issue from many but also significant one and the most difficult - but it must be done,one day!

Maybe but i hope that if it ever comes to that it gets done by people like me not by people like you.

Apart from immorality of your proposal there's a backlash of making enemies out of a nation we have a chance to reconcile with and peace always beats war, especially when you're not the strongest kid on the block and even if you are, you wont always be.

It seem we both ultra-nationalists are the lone sane people left here...

Luckily Irons views are a minority here in Poland.

Problem is Germany is already doing just that, and Poland is not independent country but German dependent

Yes Iron but thats our fault, Europe is a wolf pack, when among wolves be a wolf yourself, we as a people grew politically complacent so others take advantage of it, we need to look inwards and fix sh*t here before we regain full independence.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #46
legally don't,

legally is tricky as Poland recognized Ukrainian state in 1991 but it could be done!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,014
27 Jul 2010  #47
To hold to Poland you had to strike some deal with Russia, do you imagine that Ukraine question could be solved without Russia participation ?

I'm not quite sure...thing is Ukraine seems to be split into a pro-russian East and a pro-western West...maybe the Ukrainians have to make up their minds which way they want to go as a people before.

Maybe there will be a secession even...
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445
27 Jul 2010  #48
legally is tricky as Poland recognized Ukrainian state in 1991 but it could be done!

do tell:)

On a serious note, you have no clue how to do it, it is just a speculation.

A better, more logical and successfull plan

German way, but very smart, I am afraid Poles will not be able to pull it of since they are too emotional.

maybe the Ukrainians have to make up their minds which way they want to go as a people before.

maybe not. Ukrainians don't really have a problem with such situation, since they have lived with it for some time and it is their reality, however, for other countries Ukraine has to be in unison in order to be treated seriously. I think such observations are made by those who don't wish Ukraine well.

Ukraine is no more divided then Poland at the moment.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,014
27 Jul 2010  #49
...or just not informed enough! Sorry! :(
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #50
German way, but very smart, I am afraid Poles will not be able to pull it of since they are too emotional

Why? We did it to you guys (Ukrainians) once already, we basicallly hijacked your entire elite leaving you with a bunch of unwashed peasants, even today you dont have a real national elite.

Ukraine is no more divided then Poland at the moment.

Rubbish, Ukraine is balancing on the brink of outright division since 1991 and i do wish Ukraine well.

maybe not. Ukrainians don't really have a problem with such situation

Which is why Ukraine is so heavily divided and Crimea is practically a russian enclave?

I think such observations are made by those who don't wish Ukraine well.

The problem with you Ukrainians is that when faced with an unsavory reality you make up another one, Ukraine is unstable and divided but such observations are made by enemies of Ukraine, Ukrainians greatest heritage is basically what Poles built and developed but Lwów was always Ukrainian!!!

When you guys stop actively making things up to cover up your problems and inadequacies, then maybe you'll pull your sh*t together but for now your country is on the brink of collapse for years now.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445
27 Jul 2010  #51
Why? We did it to you guys (Ukrainians) once already, we basicallly hijacked your entire elite leaving you with a bunch of unwashed peasants, even today you dont have a real national elite.

that was not the style BB described. Nothing close to that. It is nice to dream of the past Soki, but you need to be more realistic.

Well, judging by the existing Polish elite maybe it is not such a bad thing. Middle class is the way to go these days. I hear "elite" all the time, but even during my visit in Poland, nor you are able to tell me what it means. The only elite in Poland is people who have money, or political power, the same goes for Ukraine - how would you know if you have never been there?

Rubbish, Ukraine is balancing on the brink of outright division

and it hasn't fallen apart yet.

Which is why Ukraine is so heavily divided and Crimea is practically a russian enclave?

I explained my opinion about it already, see no need to repeat it.

The problem with you Ukrainians is that when faced with an unsavory reality you make up another one

You don't know what the problems with Ukrainians is because you have never met any, have you?

Ukraine is unstable and divided but such observations are made by enemies of Ukraine

I never used the word "enemies".

Ukrainians greatest heritage is basically what Poles built and developed

because? I would like to remind you that Ukraine was under Russian state for the last 70 years, I know you are sentimental about Lviv and such, but Ukraine is much more then Lviv.

When you guys stop actively making things up to cover up your problems and inadequacies, then maybe you'll pull your sh*t together but for now you country is on the brink of collapse for years now.

you sing the same song and that means that you have nothing new to say. I merely said that the division of Ukraine is not as big of a problem as people think, economy however is much more problematic. Do you have any constructive advices to Ukraine, because I seem to be missing them in your posts:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #52
You don't know what the problems with Ukrainians is because you have never met any, have you

I met loads and the problem is exactly as i described it, awesome people but when faced with their own political or historic issues they instantly go on this huge imagination trip, this is exactly why Ukraine will fail.

how would you know if you have never been there

This year will be the fifth time i go there.

Well, judging by the existing Polish elite maybe it is not such a bad thing

Sadly we still lost our elite to WW2 but what we have is still head and shoulders above its Ukrainian counterpart (remember how your elite threw eggs at each other a few months back at your parliament?).

because? I would like to remind you that Ukraine was under Russian state for the last 70 years, I know you are sentimental about Lviv and such, but Ukraine is much more then Lviv.

Yes but Ukrainians had a very small part in creating the heritage of the lands they live on, fully developed nations built and fought over Ukraine while the locals still did not develop national identity.

Ukrainian nation as a wider idea is around for less then 150 years, as a relatively sovereign state its been around for 19 years, Ukrainians didnt have time to develop anything noteworthy so the national responce is to hijack achievements of others.

I merely said that the division of Ukraine is not as big of a problem as people think

It can lead to the collapse of your country in its current form, thats a huge problem by any account.

economy however is much more problematic. Do you have any constructive advices to Ukraine, because I seem to be missing them in your posts:)

No, your country is doomed in its current form, if your nation gained consciousness even a hundred years earlier you'd have backbone to build on, you came to the table to late to avoid growing pains which you are about to experience.

Fact is time is everything in national development, old nations draw strength from their heritage despite Convex' claims that heritage means nothing and its all about individuals, Ukraine has no such rallying banner so temporarily at least, its f*cked.

Its impossible to destroy an old european nation, history provides powerfull boost to integrity, economy helps as well but if you're poor you still have good times to fall on, when Poland was under the heel of partitioners it reminded itself of the time it was the power, what can Ukraine fall back on? Whats the symbol that'd rally your people and provide unity?

Chmielnicki and Bandera are nothing but poor mans replacements, they wont do in the long term.
peterweg 36 | 2,315
27 Jul 2010  #53
is not that simple - I have been cheated from my inheritance this way.

Oh really?

My grandfather somehow managed to go from a 19 year old miner in Karvina to a 120 hectare farmer with six employees south of Lwow.

I suspect its was something to do him being a Major in the Polish Army during the Polish Soviet war. He, like many of the settlers of the east were given land as reward for military service.

So your, inheritance, like mine was take as it was given - by force.

Crimea is practically a russian enclave?

Crimea is and always was Russian, giving it to Ukraine was a joke.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #54
Yeah maybe around 25% maybe,

Maybe 65% ? You don't know and I don't know but taken that landlords and middle class were Polish I think my estimation is closer to the truth!

several milion people.

5 or 4.5 but about 4 Ukrainians!

Ok i want you to say it mister, you would personally order loading ukrainian familes

Sure! Means of transport could differ!

you'd do to them the exact same thing that was done to us?

No, to us was done what is called nowadays "ethic cleansing"!

To starve? Freeze? What of their property?

Why ? Given cooperation of Ukraine or Russia it all could be arranged, given 5-6 years!

You'd need milions, literally like 2-3 millions people at least where will you get them from?

No bother we will mange, given a many opportunities it create, I'm confident it could be done - maybe Poles abroad would like to chance of trying life in Poland.

exactly the same stuff that we experienced and you see nothing wrong in it because the place was ours half a century ago? Thats messed up Iron.

Not exactly the same, you were deeply wronged and nobody give a **** - you know it as well as I do!- straighten it, is not exactly the same ! That is a right thing to do!

you're a bastard who lives in his comfy armchair and talks about harsh measures.

I have been around also and I would not hesitate do it personally what I deem necessary.

they dont deserve cattle trains.

Cattle trains ? You are the one talking about cattle trains, We have 21st century mate!

Maybe but i hope that if it ever comes to that it gets done by people like me not by people like you.

Left for people like you it would be worse as you are driven by emotions not reason !

enemies out of a nation we have a chance to reconcile

Fat chance, they would trade us, no time !

Luckily Irons views are a minority here in Poland.

luckily ? I strongly disagree !

Yes Iron but thats our fault,

To some extend, I would blame communist and their leftovers!

we need to look inwards and fix sh*t here before we regain full independence.

thats what I'm saying all along .......first things first !

I'm not quite sure

Sure thing, you would need Russia to sort it out, there is no doubt about it!

On a serious note, you have no clue how to do it, it is just a speculation.

Well, it just speculation but is not an imminent problem.
By the way, you maybe Ukrainian but you are from Poland, you don't know much about Ukraine internal problems !

So your, inheritance, like mine was take as it was given - by force.

No, my family have root there, so not by force, I suppose your grandfather would agreed with you ?
It was Polish land for longer than USA exists, so land given to Polish officer was no crime !
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,014
27 Jul 2010  #55
No, my family have root there, so not by force,

As did Germans (my family) had in what is now Poland....

It was Polish land for longer than USA exists,

Silesia and East Prussia the same...

Give it back first, then we might look the other way when you in turn go for the Ukraine! ;)

But face it man, you can't go seriously planning a retaking of Lwow without opening the can of worms that Silesia is! You surely don't want that.

If you really think you can reshape the facts of today's Europe and not be the same way open to other sharks yourself you are seriously mistaken...what's good for the goose...
Paulina 9 | 1,453
27 Jul 2010  #56
But face it man, you can't go seriously planning a retaking of Lwow

I doubt anyone sane would seriously think about it, let alone plan it LOL
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #57
Give it back first, then we might look the other way when you in turn go for the Ukraine! ;)

talk to your post-communists pets in polish establishment - for me is not even funny !

When you get Konigsberg from Russia then we can start talking !:)

Silesia and East Prussia the same...

Not really as there were not one German state till 1871, contrary to Kingdom of Poland!
Secondly after WWI you were unsatisfied with borders with Poland.
Well, after WWII you got what you deserved - let's face it!
Not only because of WWII German crimes against Poles but also because Prussian crimes against Poles!

If you really think you can reshape the facts of today's Europe and not be the same way open to other sharks yourself you are seriously mistaken.

Oh! I know that German will try their luck....no mistake here .....I do not forget Germany - don't be afraid :)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445
27 Jul 2010  #58
Well, it just speculation but is not an imminent problem.

so you have no clue how to do it, legally, you have no plan, you are a dreamer. Go and get your land, we will see how brave you are. This must be the most stupid thing I have read from you so far. It is a major problem if besides claiming your rights the the said land you have no idea how you gonna get it back. First, you have to have some legal proof that it belonged to your family.

Sadly we still lost our elite to WW2 but what we have is still head and shoulders above its Ukrainian counterpart

well, maybe that is not such a bad thing after all, but I can see the damage as a result in a way some Polish people think. What is wrong with eggs, we have eggs, you have Palikot - I don't see any difference.

Ukrainian nation as a wider idea is around for less then 150 years

150 years is enough in my opinion. I am curious what have Ukrainians hijacked, now I am curious.

It can lead to the collapse of your country in its current form, thats a huge problem by any account.

I am glad you worry, but if it collapses, Irons can claim his land;)

No, your country is doomed in its current form

well, it is what it is.

despite Convex' claims that heritage means nothing and its all about individuals.

convex was using US as a reference point and I agree that it could not be applied to Ukraine. I think what you think is heritage, is not heritage for him, still I am waiting for you to explain to me what Polish heritage is.

Whats the symbol that'd rally your people and provide unity?

many things, trust me, Ukrainians have a strong sense of identity.

Chmielnicki and Bandera are nothing but poor mans replacements, they wont do in the long term.

I really don't like to involve myself in speculations about that, different Ukrainians cherish different heros.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Jul 2010  #59
so you have no clue how to do it, legally,

you again do not read posts !!!is rude !
Its no about my land is about Poland land!
What plan you are talking about? All I'm doing is saying that it is right and justified thing to get land which was stolen from Poland by Soviets !

get it right this time - will you!?
Sokrates 8 | 3,348
27 Jul 2010  #60
Maybe 65% ? You don't know and I don't know but taken that landlords and middle class were Polish I think my estimation is closer to the truth!

Rubbish Iron, 25% is a top estimate, in reality its probably lower, yes we know that Ukrainian goverment severely lowers the amount of Poles but still Poles are a minority today both in Lwów and its surrounding areas.

Provided your madmans plan works we'd need to resettle at least three milion Poles to the area, we dont have that kind of people, we might work out a few hundred thousand but thats it and thats not enough, there's no way to make your vision work, morally, ethnically or politcally.

Could we get back Lwów? Yes, could we maintain its possesion and not suffer crippling international backlash? No.

You'd effectively destroy both Poland and the peace we have in Europe.

No, to us was done what is called nowadays "ethic cleansing"!

And you're proposing exactly that, exiling people based on their ethnicity unless they swear allegiance to a foreign power, thats point for point exactly what Prussia did to Poles.

First it invaded Poland, then it made Poles swear loyalty or it stole their lands, you're basically advocating parroting Prussian and to some extent Nazi policies against Ukraine.

Left for people like you it would be worse as you are driven by emotions not reason !

If Poland was driven by emotion we'd be doing everything in our power to destabilize Ukraine and invade it later on, luckily people in charge have been somewhat more sane then you, we need a stable Ukraine.

No bother we will mange, given a many opportunities it create, I'm confident it could be done - maybe Poles abroad would like to chance of trying life in Poland.

No they would not, there is no real way you could pull several milion people out of your ass, the region would collapse into an economic ruin and become completely empty, we dont have people to settle there and no means of getting them.

luckily ? I strongly disagree !

Times change Iron, most of us would love Lwów back, i'm a descendand of the Lwówian family myself but what you propose is immoral, impractical and impossible to achieve on many levels.

We could discuss it further but whats the point when its simply impossible, before you start running your mouth draw us a roadplan on how you think Poland can re-aquire Lwów without damaging itself, how can it incorporate it into the country then we can talk.

Right now i dont see such possibility.


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